Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Old Role Ideas

Do you like this role idea?

Yes, and I would like to see it in game
111
79%
Yes but there are problems with some aspects of it (state below)
12
9%
No, it isn't suitable for this game
17
12%
 
Total votes : 140

Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Shastaa » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:44 am

A few derivatives of "Ма́фия" have the Clockmaker -- a unique, unorthodox role which depends on killing other players, not out of adversity, but to change the hands on their clock to a more favorable time. Town of Salem would benefit with a similar role, but not without alterations to its mechanics.

Role Name: Paradoxist

Alignment: Neutral Chaos

Description: An entity tasked with making small, meticulous adjustments to reality

Abilities:
-Visit a person once to send them backwards in time, roleblocking but also healing them
-Visiting the same person twice will cut them out of reality, killing them

Attributes:
-Your initial time is 8 o'clock
-Visiting a Town role will send your clock forward 5 hours
-Visiting a Mafia role will send your clock forward 3 hours
-Visiting a Neutral role will send your clock backwards 2 hours

Goal: Land your clock on 12 o'clock to win

Wins with: Everyone

Paradoxist Solo Victory Mock-up

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is not suspicious
Investigator: Your target has special procedures for killing. They could be a Vampire Hunter or a Paradoxist
Consigliere: Your target is from another plane of reality, they must be a Paradoxist

Role-Related Messages: Spoiler:
    Your clock reads X o'clock.

    You have decided to rescind Player_Name tonight
    You have decided to erase Player_Name tonight (if you've already visited this target)

    You have successfully landed your clock on 12.

    You visited a Town member, your clock advanced 5 hours
    You visited a member of the Mafia, your clock advanced 3 hours
    You visited a Neutral role, your clock turned back 2 hours


    You night was rescinded by a Paradoxist, you have been roleblocked!

    You were attacked but a Paradoxist rescinded your death! Visitor message
    Your target was attacked last night! Paradoxist message

    You were rescinded again by a Paradoxist but failed to return!
    You have died!


    Player_Name was killed last night.
    He was torn out of existence by a Paradoxist

Achievements:
Spoiler: -Singularity: Win 1 game as a Paradoxist (5 Town Points)
-Schrodinger: Win 5 games as a Paradoxist (5 Town Points)
-Causal Loop: Win 10 games as a Paradoxist (10 Town Points)
-Grandfather Paradox: Win 25 games as a Paradoxist (25 Town Points)

-Pestilent Paradox: Erase 3 or more players in one game before winning (10 Town Points)
-Peaceful Paradox: Win without erasing anyone (10 Town Points)

-Second Doctor: Rescind 3 deaths in one game (25 Town Points)
-False Promise: Erase a player who you previously saved from death (5 Town Points)

-Octet Rule: Reach 12 o'clock by visiting no one but Town members (5 Town Points)
-Only Even: Reach 12 o'clock by visiting no one but Neutrals (5 Town Points)

Frequently Asked Questions:
Spoiler: Is the Paradoxist night-immune?
He probably shouldn't be. The Executioner is night-immune because he needs to pretend to be a Sheriff / Investigator. Maybe the Paradoxist could be night-immune when his clock reads an odd number, but that would complicate the role and it might not be necessary.

Is the Paradoxist roleblock-immune?
Yes.

Should erasing go through night-immunity?
Yes.

Does the clock automatically advance 1 hour every day?
No. The only way to change the clock is through visiting other players.

Does the clock change for the second visit as well as the first visit?
Yes.

Should the Paradoxist be immune to Vampire conversion?
Yes.

What are some possible win combinations?
Advisability -- Combination
LOW -- 8x Town
LOW -- 6x Town, 1x Neutral
LOW -- 4x Town, 2x Neutral
MED -- 5x Town, 1x Mafia
MED -- 4x Neutral
MED -- 3x Town, 1x Mafia, 1x Neutral
HI -- 1x Town, 1x Mafia, 2x Neutral
HI -- 2x Town, 2x Mafia
HI -- 2x Mafia, 1x Neutral
Last edited by Shastaa on Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:18 pm, edited 99 times in total.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Arpitr20 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:00 am

this is... interesting..., will the paradoxist know the time on their clock?
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Shastaa » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:07 am

Yeah, they should receive daily+nightly messages informing them of the time on their clock.

They're a neutral role after all, so even if one finds the mafia and loses 3 hours, they probably won't be partisan against them.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Jerme » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:32 am

This is an interesting concept. I am currently not sure if this would work in the game, but in general I like it.
- Can you set your clock backwards to 12 (visitign two mafs n1 and n2)?
- Does the timereset protect from Jailor/Guilt/Fire/Mauling?
- Can the reset save from multiple attacks (i.e. Jailor jailed sk and Mafia attacked Jailor)?
- Normally a Neutral(Chaos) can neither win with Mafia nor with Town, maybe make an N:E out of this role?
- Could you also note the missing messages (the time, the actions and the feedback [i.e saved your target])?
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Shastaa » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:20 am

Thank you for the feedback jerme, it has valid questions that I will answer.

Jerme wrote: - Can you set your clock backwards to 12 (visitign two mafs n1 and n2)?

No no, I think you're under the impression that the clock automatically advances 1 hour/day, but that isn't the case.
Visiting 1 Mafia would take you from 4 to 1 o'clock. Visiting the mafia again would send you to 10 o'clock.

Jerme wrote:Does the timereset protect from Jailor/Guilt/Fire/Mauling?
Can the reset save from multiple attacks (i.e. Jailor jailed sk and Mafia attacked Jailor)?

It should protect from most everything other than suicide via leaving or Vigilante guilt. It's a one-time save so I don't think it'd be too OP.
Being rescinded on the night you get burned should save you, but still return you to your previously-doused state.

Jerme wrote: - Normally a Neutral(Chaos) can neither win with Mafia nor with Town, maybe make an N:E out of this role?

Hmmm, it could definitely qualify as Neutral Evil, but that would give the Town a bad impression; a Paradoxist might want to claim, "I'm Para! I'll only visit townies once, heal me in case I roleblock SK!" And he could potentially be a benign, even helpful force for the town.

Jerme wrote:Could you also note the missing messages (the time, the actions and the feedback [i.e saved your target])?

Yeah, I'm missing some messages, I'll fix that.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby lucas8411 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:40 am

I HATE THIS ROOLOE YOU HADE TO PO MATCSH FUR THIS ... just kidding. I find this role pretty interesting but I have 3 questions:
1: If you visit mafia, town of neutral do you know if the clock go forward or backward?
2: Do you still win if the clock is over 12 o'clock?
3: If you erase a target, goes the clock also forward/backward? or is it only if you rescind your target?
That is it for now.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Jerme » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:16 am

Well I had aparently a msitake in my calculations, thank you for clarifying that the clock does not advance each night automaticly.
Neutral(Evil) is the only alignment, which may have a side goal and win while the game is still ongoing.
Questions:
- Are there penalties if you do not perform your nigthaction?
- Once your clock reaches 12, is it locked and won't be reset when visiting, or will you lose your nightability/may not perform it if you wish to stay alive?
- Are there any immunities (Witch/Roleblock/night)?
- Could you refit the invnestigation results to the current one and maybe suggest a result group from "Oranges Investigationresults" (it is said they might replace the current ones)?
- What is the Sheriffs result when investing the Paradoxist?
- Can a Bodyguard prevent any of the Paradoxists actions?
- Does the Paradoxist pierce nightimmunty/Heals?
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby theo07 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:27 am

Interesting concept.....and beside the question that where already asked,I also have some

Can vampires convert him?
Cutting someone off the reality goes through night immunity?
Can your target be healed/protected?

Also,Orange's results will be most likely in the game.I suggest this:Your target is a loner.They must be a Survivor,Pardoxist,Witch or Retributionist
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby oliy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:54 am

Why are so many people saying
theo07 wrote:Interesting

Jerme wrote:interesting]

Arpitr20 wrote:interesting...,

ITS MATH IN TOWN OF SALEM WITH TIME TRAVEL SCIENCE!!! I LOVE IT!
AND IT'S BALANCED AND SIMPLE!

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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby theo07 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:22 am

oliy wrote:Why are so many people saying
theo07 wrote:Interesting

Jerme wrote:interesting]

Arpitr20 wrote:interesting...,

ITS MATH IN TOWN OF SALEM WITH TIME TRAVEL SCIENCE!!! I LOVE IT!
AND IT'S BALANCED AND SIMPLE!



Because it is interesting.It's a unique concept that bring something special in the game!This should go to Tg!
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby oliy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:31 am

theo07 wrote:
oliy wrote:Why are so many people saying
theo07 wrote:Interesting

Jerme wrote:interesting]

Arpitr20 wrote:interesting...,

ITS MATH IN TOWN OF SALEM WITH TIME TRAVEL SCIENCE!!! I LOVE IT!
AND IT'S BALANCED AND SIMPLE!



Because it is interesting.It's a unique concept that bring something special in the game!This should go to Tg!

Interesting is a word that has many meanings with different implications.
Dictionary.com has 2 definitions, one being "to interest," and interest has 20 definitions.

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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby theo07 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:39 am

:explode: :explode: :explode: .Anyway,do you want this on Tg?
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby oliy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:44 am

Yes, after more people state their opinions. A poll would be nice.

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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Jerme » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:44 am

@Oliy: This is a small offtopic discussion. Did you know that the word 'Interesting' is based of the latin verb 'interesse'? 'inter' means between and 'esse' is the latin word of to be
I chose this word to express that I liked the idea, the uniqueness of this concept and that I never had the idea to create such a role.
@Topic: Have you thought about some archivments? Additional to the basic win 1,5,10,25 games I could think of the following:
- It's not your time: Save someone from death.
- You died anyway: Kill someone who is attacked.
- Not it is your time: Kill someone you previously have saved.
- Your knife is stronger: Die to the Serial Killer you visited.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby oliy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:47 am

I like "You died anyway."
How about "Perfect Reader" win by night 4

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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Jerme » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:56 am

Currently I see three ways to archive a Victory after n4: 3xMafia 1xTown, or 2xMafia 2xNeutral or 4xTown. If you do make good guesses you can easily archive a victory with this role.
There is additional question: Is there a special interaction with the Jailor (i.e. counts as town visit for the clock, but not for rb/heal/kill), or will they prolong your victory for one day?
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby theo07 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:07 am

Achievements:

Besides the ones for winning(Btw,the 25 wins should be called ''Who?'')

Right back at the start-Land your clock at 4
I had one hour!-Visit yourself
Really bad idea-Cut yourself from existence
Good side affects-Kill the Gf
Bad side affects-Kill the mayor
Testing subject-Kill someone for the first time
Something is wrong....-Kill 3 people in the same game
Happy ending-Complete your goal and be alive at the end of the game
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Arpitr20 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:03 am

Jerme wrote:This is an interesting concept. I am currently not sure if this would work in the game, but in general I like it.
- Can you set your clock backwards to 12 (visitign two mafs n1 and n2)?
- Does the timereset protect from Jailor/Guilt/Fire/Mauling?
- Can the reset save from multiple attacks (i.e. Jailor jailed sk and Mafia attacked Jailor)?
- Normally a Neutral(Chaos) can neither win with Mafia nor with Town, maybe make an N:E out of this role?
- Could you also note the missing messages (the time, the actions and the feedback [i.e saved your target])?

dude it has to be nc or nb because its pretty much a consign if siding with town or mafia.
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This is where roles are tested:
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ToS QR: Spoiler: Image FM wins: Spoiler: NFM 2 Mafioso WIN
NFM 4-Veteran WIN
FM 8C-Aragog (Arsonist) LOSE
My roles
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Arpitr20 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:04 am

Jerme wrote:This is an interesting concept. I am currently not sure if this would work in the game, but in general I like it.
- Can you set your clock backwards to 12 (visitign two mafs n1 and n2)?
- Does the timereset protect from Jailor/Guilt/Fire/Mauling?
- Can the reset save from multiple attacks (i.e. Jailor jailed sk and Mafia attacked Jailor)?
- Normally a Neutral(Chaos) can neither win with Mafia nor with Town, maybe make an N:E out of this role?
- Could you also note the missing messages (the time, the actions and the feedback [i.e saved your target])?

dude it has to be nc or nb because its pretty much a consign if siding with town or mafia. also adds strategy if the mafia are about to lynch you, rip the mafia out of the universe. I like it
Image
This is where roles are tested:
Image
ToS QR: Spoiler: Image FM wins: Spoiler: NFM 2 Mafioso WIN
NFM 4-Veteran WIN
FM 8C-Aragog (Arsonist) LOSE
My roles
Nightmarer(Maf Supp.)& Switcher(Maf. Supp.)- MY FAVS
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Jerme » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:30 am

Arpitr20 wrote:dude it has to be nc or nb because its pretty much a consign if siding with town or mafia. also adds strategy if the mafia are about to lynch you, rip the mafia out of the universe. I like it

Well at first you double posted, but apart from that I explain why I told to take Neutral(Evil) as alignment:
- Only Neutral(Evil) roles have a 'side'-goal (= they could win even before the game is over)
- Since they win with everyone they cannot be Neutral(Chaos) [As known, this alignment is incapable of winnign with Town or Mafia]
- The Neutral(Benign) alignment is for selfcaring people who protect themselves with their ability
- Neutral(Benign) roles are also the only rolegroup which is incapable of killing in any way (directly or indirectly)
- The killing is rather inconsistent, so it cannot be a Neutral(Killing)
Can you follow my reasoning, Arpitr?
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Shastaa » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:56 pm

Alright I added a poll and also changed the initial times + alignment times to make it harder to reach 12. It was too easy before.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Jerme » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:15 pm

There are a couple of open/unanswere questions and I would like to see them being answered.
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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby JazzMusicStops » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:23 pm

This is interesting
I think it would be cool to just remove the player from the player list, not have them in the graveyard and not have their body displayed, to show them being erased from existence, but I think that might be a bit much
I think this role has potential and could be fun to play as
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby lucas8411 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:56 pm

oliy wrote:
theo07 wrote:Why are so many people saying Interesting

Jerme wrote:interesting]

Arpitr20 wrote:interesting...,

Interesting is a word that has many meanings with different implications.
Dictionary.com has 2 definitions, one being "to interest," and interest has 20 definitions.

If you watch amine you will get why we are saying this

Now back to the topic, I wanna know the awnser of these questions:
1: If you visit mafia, town of neutral do you know if the clock go forward or backward?
2: Do you still win if the clock is over 12 o'clock?
3: If you erase a target, goes the clock also forward/backward? or is it only if you rescind your target?
IF YOU'RE READING THIS, I WANT TO SAY THAT I LEFT THE FORUMS.

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Re: Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

Postby Shastaa » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:08 pm

theo07 wrote:Can vampires convert him?

Neutral roles aren't really where Vampires go to convert players, so it would make sense that he is immune to Vampire bites.

theo07 wrote:Can your target be healed/protected?

He should be able to be healed/protected. He could make some killing roles very uncomfortable after visiting them once, so he will probably want a doctor/bodyguard for defense.

theo07 wrote:Cutting someone off the reality goes through night immunity?

Yes, it should pierce night immunity. However, Serial Killers and Werewolves would still be hard to kill due to the fact that they attack roleblockers and the Paradoxist is a roleblocker.

theo07 wrote:Also,Orange's results will be most likely in the game.I suggest this:Your target is a loner.They must be a Survivor,Pardoxist,Witch or Retributionist

This is somewhat long for an investigation result, don't you think? I think Ret/Para results would still work with Orange's investigation ideas.
Alternatively, the investigation result could say, "Your target has traveled far, he must be a Transporter or a Paradoxist" and return the Escort/Consort result.

    lucas8411 wrote:If you watch amine you will get why we are saying this

    I'm afraid I am not so enlightened as to know what anime you might be quoting...

    lucas8411 wrote:1: If you visit mafia, town of neutral do you know if the clock go forward or backward?

    Yeah, you will receive a message the following day, telling you what alignment you visited and what your new time is.
    That would allow you to identify people so you don't have to always rely on educated guesses.

    lucas8411 wrote:2: Do you still win if the clock is over 12 o'clock?

    The clock needs to land on 12 exactly, passing over it doesn't count.

    lucas8411 wrote:3: If you erase a target, goes the clock also forward/backward? or is it only if you rescind your target?

    Visiting, whether to rescind or to kill, will change the time on your clock.

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