Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

What are your thoughts about Poisoner's new Investigator Results?

Poll ended at Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:23 pm

I like them! Keep it in the Escort/Trans/Consort/Hypno/Poisoner result.
9
60%
I do not like it. Move it back to the Sheriff/Executioner/Werewolf/Poisoner result.
6
40%
 
Total votes : 15

Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:23 pm

Poisoner - Coven (Evil)

Attack: Basic
Defense: None
Unique: Yes
Priority: 2 (blight/roleblock), 5 (poisoning)

Abilities:
    - You may blight a player at night, or poison a blighted player.
Attributes:
    - Blights block your target from using their role's night ability.
    - Poisoning a blighted player will deal a Basic Attack to them. They will die the following night if they had no defense.
    - With the Necronomicon, you will deal a Blight and a Basic Attack to your target.

Investigative Results:
    Sheriff: Your target is suspicious! (without the Necronomicon) | You could not find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent. (with the Necronomicon)
    Investigator: Your target could be an Escort, Transporter, Consort, Hypnotist, or Poisoner.
    Consigliere: Your target uses herbs and plants to kill their victims. They must be the Poisoner.

Mechanics:
    - A Blight is a basic roleblock that allows the player to be poisoned if visited by the Poisoner again. Players are only roleblocked on the night that they are blighted. Roleblock immune roles are immune to the roleblock given by blights, including the Serial Killer. Roles that have defense are not immune to being roleblocked, unless they have roleblock immunity.
    - If you blight an uncautious Serial Killer, they will attack you. Your Last Will is unreadable upon death.
    - If you blight a Werewolf on a Full Moon, they will rampage at home and attack you.
    - Poisons can be removed by a Guardian Angel's Purge.
    - Blights cannot be removed nor protected against.
    - The second visit, the poison, equates to a Basic Attack.
    - The delayed kill delivered by the Poisoner, without the Necronomicon, is an Unstoppable Attack. This will only be carried out if the poisoned player has No Defense and was not protected by themselves or another player.
    - You are roleblock immune to yourself but not other roleblockers (this is to prevent a paradox), such as Escorts, Consorts, the Jailor, and the Pirate. Note that you can still poison yourself if you happen to visit yourself again.
    - With the Necronomicon, the Poisoner will roleblock and deal an instant Basic Attack to their target.
    - If a Necromancer uses a dead Poisoner on a player, they will be roleblocked if they haven’t been blighted before. If they were blighted before, they will instead be poisoned.

Notifications:
    "Someone occupied your night. You were roleblocked!" (**)
    "You were cured of poison!" (appears if a Guardian Angel purges your poison)
    "You were poisoned. You will die tomorrow!"(**)
    "You were attacked but someone fought off your attacker!" (appears to a player that is directly attacked by the Poisoner but is intercepted by a Bodyguard)
    "You were attacked but someone protected you!" (**) (appears to a player that is directly attacked by the Poisoner but is protected by a Crusader)
    "You were attacked but someone nursed you back to health!" (**) (appears to a player that is directly attacked by the Poisoner but is healed by a Doctor)
    "You were attacked but a trap saved you!" (**) (appears to a player that is directly attacked by the Poisoner but is saved by a Trapper's trap)
    "You died of poison!"
    "They were poisoned by the Poisoner."
Spoiler: (**) = (Hypnotist gets access to use this message)
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:16 am

Bump!
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby Poryg » Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:47 am

Not supporting. There are a multitude of issues with this overhaul.

- The mechanics are too complicated and make him weak. Blight, then poison, then the next night if target isn't cured, astral unstoppable attack from poison. With his rb rate of 1 every 2 days and his kpn of 1 every 2.5 nights he sucks both as an rber and as a killer.
- The blight and poison cannot be cured by doc for whatever reason. Removing the tactical element of distracting docs.
- The necronomicon potentially nerfs the poisoner. From what I understand, it replaces every visit with a basic attack dealing blight. But in exchange makes him unable to kill immunes. I'd rather pick the ability to poison and kill indiscriminately every night than rb every night and not kill immunes. It will make the poisoner very strong, however the fact that necronomicon actually nerfs him is insane.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:46 pm

Poryg wrote:Not supporting. There are a multitude of issues with this overhaul.

I can see why you think this might be stupid, but I read your points below and there seem to be several misunderstandings. I will say the role might be complicated, but I can try to explain each mechanic.

- The mechanics are too complicated and make him weak. Blight, then poison, then the next night if target isn't cured, astral unstoppable attack from poison. With his rb rate of 1 every 2 days and his kpn of 1 every 2.5 nights he sucks both as an rber and as a killer.

Poisoner's blights last the whole game unless removed by a Guardian Angel, meaning it can blight someone N1, then blight another person N2, and choose which person to poison N3 (this makes it harder for TPs to try and figure out who the Poisoner will poison). Note that, like current Poisoner, the poison will not go through if the target has any form of Defense, whether it be natural defense or protection from Town Protectives, a Potion Master, Guardian Angel, or Jail. I'll try to type a scenario of Poisoner down below:
    1 is Poisoner
    2 is Lookout
    3 is Doctor

    N1, 1 blights 2, and 3 heals themselves
    N2, 1 blights 3, and 2 watches 1
    N3, 1 poisons 3, 2 and 3 both visit 1 (3 will now die the next night since they weren't protected)
    N4, 1 poisons 2, 2 and 3 both visit 1 (3 dies to poison, and 2 will die the next night)

You are STILL able to blight or poison the night after you poison someone, meaning you have a KPN of 0.5 starting on Night 2 and onward.
- The blight and poison cannot be cured by doc for whatever reason. Removing the tactical element of distracting docs.

The blight cannot be removed by anyone except a Guardian Angel. A Poison can be prevented if the Doctor heals the Poisoner's target the night they get poisoned. However, the Doctor will not be able to remove the poison if they go on a player the night after they are poisoned. This is to remove an unnecessary counter towards Poisoner in exchange for the lower but more consistent and balanced KPN.
- The necronomicon potentially nerfs the poisoner. From what I understand, it replaces every visit with a basic attack dealing blight. But in exchange makes him unable to kill immunes. I'd rather pick the ability to poison and kill indiscriminately every night than rb every night and not kill immunes. It will make the poisoner very strong, however the fact that necronomicon actually nerfs him is insane.

Like I said, you are not able to kill anyone that is immune, with or without the Necronomicon. The Poisoner with the Necronomicon is able to kill and roleblock their target in the same night as long as they haven't been blighted before.

Hopefully that covers it all up.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby Poryg » Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:30 am

Ah, I see. That makes more sense now. I forgot that the poison only applies for the non-immune targets.
Nevertheless, since poisoning someone now requires 2 visits instead of 1, I think that both the blight and the poison should now report whether the victim has defence. And that maybe poisoning an immune character could still rb them, because otherwise poisoner really sucks as an rber.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby DragoWhooves » Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:06 pm

+Support
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:09 pm

Poryg wrote:Ah, I see. That makes more sense now. I forgot that the poison only applies for the non-immune targets.
Nevertheless, since poisoning someone now requires 2 visits instead of 1, I think that both the blight and the poison should now report whether the victim has defence. And that maybe poisoning an immune character could still rb them, because otherwise poisoner really sucks as an rber.

I don’t really want Poisoner to roleblock the same person repeatedly as that isn’t really the intention of the role? In this case, all roles with defense are NKs, GF, Exe, and PB. Roleblocking a SK/WW will have you killed, GF won’t do anything if there’s a Mafioso, and Exe can’t visit. So it really only affects Arso, Jugg, and PB.
I’m not sure I want to add the mechanic you mentioned since I can see that being complicated if a role get protection that night.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby Poryg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:00 am

How would it get complicated? Every attacker gets this feedback that "your target's defence was too strong to kill" regardless if the target was immune naturally, or the target was TP'd. This gives them the information that they need to either search for the tp, or realize that they've hit an immune. The current poisoner does not need this feedback, because he only needs 1 visit to kill someone and people either will claim poisoned, or they won't. But your rework requires 2 visits to kill someone. With 4 TPs and 9 naturally immune roles, the lack of the info puts poisoner at a serious disadvantage and further weakens their kpn. Especially since the poison visit, as you admit, is not going to do anything if it hits an immune, meaning it's a wasted visit.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:43 pm

Poryg wrote:How would it get complicated? Every attacker gets this feedback that "your target's defence was too strong to kill" regardless if the target was immune naturally, or the target was TP'd. This gives them the information that they need to either search for the tp, or realize that they've hit an immune. The current poisoner does not need this feedback, because he only needs 1 visit to kill someone and people either will claim poisoned, or they won't. But your rework requires 2 visits to kill someone. With 4 TPs and 9 naturally immune roles, the lack of the info puts poisoner at a serious disadvantage and further weakens their kpn. Especially since the poison visit, as you admit, is not going to do anything if it hits an immune, meaning it's a wasted visit.

You still should not know if your target would have defense or not, since the blight is not an actual attack.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby Poryg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:19 pm

It is not an actual attack, but could still serve as a sort of invest feature. Still better than N1 a random rb, N2 attack, N3 another, less random RB and N4 a kill. Your suggestion is going to make the poisoner so luck dependent it's insane. And it's all because you won't know until D4 if your first target dies and until D6 if your second target dies.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:51 pm

Poryg wrote:It is not an actual attack, but could still serve as a sort of invest feature. Still better than N1 a random rb, N2 attack, N3 another, less random RB and N4 a kill. Your suggestion is going to make the poisoner so luck dependent it's insane. And it's all because you won't know until D4 if your first target dies and until D6 if your second target dies.

I'm going off of a Ranked rolelist, in which case only 1-2 roles in a game have natural defense (other than the CL). You shouldn't know beforehand if your target has defense before you actually attack them. Coven's whole niche is meant to have an inconsistent KPN without the Necronomicon, and a consistent 1 KPN with it. My overhaul already roleblocks and has versatility with its killing like PM does, I'd rather not give it an investigative ability.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby Milla097877 » Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:26 pm

One question before sharing my thoughts on this, Is Poioner supposed to rb others instead of the intended target is there are 2 visitors on the current target?
Booo! I love the ghostly presence here
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:07 pm

Milla097877 wrote:One question before sharing my thoughts on this, Is Poioner supposed to rb others instead of the intended target is there are 2 visitors on the current target?

No, you only roleblock the target. You actually never interact with other visitors on your own.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:59 am

WaveAqualei wrote:- You are roleblock immune to yourself but not other roleblockers (this is to prevent a paradox), such as Escorts, Consorts, the Jailor, and the Pirate. Note that you can still poison yourself if you happen to visit yourself again.
This is kinda dumb, as it would render the Poisoner the only roleblocker that is not immune to roleblocks itself. It should be consistent with the abilities of Escorts and Consorts (including whatever fix is implemented to the Pirate bug, when that happens).
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:47 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:- You are roleblock immune to yourself but not other roleblockers (this is to prevent a paradox), such as Escorts, Consorts, the Jailor, and the Pirate. Note that you can still poison yourself if you happen to visit yourself again.
This is kinda dumb, as it would render the Poisoner the only roleblocker that is not immune to roleblocks itself. It should be consistent with the abilities of Escorts and Consorts (including whatever fix is implemented to the Pirate bug, when that happens).



Balancing wise its better to leave it that way, I really dont want half the coven to be rb immune
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:25 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:- You are roleblock immune to yourself but not other roleblockers (this is to prevent a paradox), such as Escorts, Consorts, the Jailor, and the Pirate. Note that you can still poison yourself if you happen to visit yourself again.
This is kinda dumb, as it would render the Poisoner the only roleblocker that is not immune to roleblocks itself. It should be consistent with the abilities of Escorts and Consorts (including whatever fix is implemented to the Pirate bug, when that happens).

I see why it's stupid but I don't really want more Roleblock Immune Coven roles. I would imagine the Poisoner would be at a lower priority than the rest of the roleblockers.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:06 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:- You are roleblock immune to yourself but not other roleblockers (this is to prevent a paradox), such as Escorts, Consorts, the Jailor, and the Pirate. Note that you can still poison yourself if you happen to visit yourself again.
This is kinda dumb, as it would render the Poisoner the only roleblocker that is not immune to roleblocks itself. It should be consistent with the abilities of Escorts and Consorts (including whatever fix is implemented to the Pirate bug, when that happens).
I see why it's stupid but I don't really want more Roleblock Immune Coven roles. I would imagine the Poisoner would be at a lower priority than the rest of the roleblockers.
The issue here is that, most of the existing Coven roles are direct counterparts to roles that already are RB-immune, and all of them have good reasons to be so. The one Coven role that isn’t a counterpart but is still RB-immune (Necromancer, which preceded the Retributionist rework that it is currently similar to) also has a very good reason to be RB-immune.

Basically if you don’t want any more Coven roles to be RB-immune then you shouldn’t add a Coven role that’s a counterpart to Escort in the first place.

I personally think the stupidity of an Escort-counterpart not being RB immune outweighs the issue of having too many RB-immune Coven roles. One thing that can be done to resolve this is adding more Coven roles that don’t have a good reason to be RB-immune in the first place. That way, this form of Poisoner can be consistent with Escort and Consort (and Medusa can get it’s deserved RB-immunity while on alert, since it’s a Veteran counterpart!) while not making basically the entire faction immune to roleblockers. Also, the Coven faction desperately needs more roles anyways.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:26 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:- You are roleblock immune to yourself but not other roleblockers (this is to prevent a paradox), such as Escorts, Consorts, the Jailor, and the Pirate. Note that you can still poison yourself if you happen to visit yourself again.
This is kinda dumb, as it would render the Poisoner the only roleblocker that is not immune to roleblocks itself. It should be consistent with the abilities of Escorts and Consorts (including whatever fix is implemented to the Pirate bug, when that happens).
I see why it's stupid but I don't really want more Roleblock Immune Coven roles. I would imagine the Poisoner would be at a lower priority than the rest of the roleblockers.
The issue here is that, most of the existing Coven roles are direct counterparts to roles that already are RB-immune, and all of them have good reasons to be so. The one Coven role that isn’t a counterpart but is still RB-immune (Necromancer, which preceded the Retributionist rework that it is currently similar to) also has a very good reason to be RB-immune.

Basically if you don’t want any more Coven roles to be RB-immune then you shouldn’t add a Coven role that’s a counterpart to Escort in the first place.

I personally think the stupidity of an Escort-counterpart not being RB immune outweighs the issue of having too many RB-immune Coven roles. One thing that can be done to resolve this is adding more Coven roles that don’t have a good reason to be RB-immune in the first place. That way, this form of Poisoner can be consistent with Escort and Consort (and Medusa can get it’s deserved RB-immunity while on alert, since it’s a Veteran counterpart!) while not making basically the entire faction immune to roleblockers. Also, the Coven faction desperately needs more roles anyways.

I get where you're coming from but sadly I just don't see the point? I don't think all Coven roles need complete RB Immunity anyway (Necromancer is a good example). The faction as a whole isn't that consistent unfortunately, which I think is a problem but I can't do much about that. I believe the interaction is fine though? Especially as a killing role.
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Re: Poisoner Overhaul (Coven Evil)

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:38 am

WaveAqualei wrote:I get where you're coming from but sadly I just don't see the point? I don't think all Coven roles need complete RB Immunity anyway (Necromancer is a good example). The faction as a whole isn't that consistent unfortunately, which I think is a problem but I can't do much about that. I believe the interaction is fine though? Especially as a killing role.
They don’t all need RB-immunity but the ones that have it really do need it.

- Necromancer is RB-immune to prevent a paradox (e.g: if I send an Escort to myself and get roleblocked, how did I send the Escort? This can be done accidentally with Transporter shenanigans so not allowing Necromancer and Retributionist to self-target doesn’t fix that). Also, Necromancer and Retributionist need to have a higher priority than any role they can control otherwise the ability flat-out doesn’t work.
- Escort and Consort are RB-immune for similar reasons, and also to prevent confusion with chains of roleblockers.
- Your form of Poisoner being immune to its own roleblocks and not anyone else is not just inconsistent. It’s really confusing to players even when you disregard the inconsistency with Escort and Consort.
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