Witch idea

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Witch idea

Postby Ferule » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:14 am

I've always seen the Witch being kinda Op in being able to control someone every night it can be annoying but also devastating late game.

If the witch had limited uses, say 2, that could be refreshed by visiting herself and cast a spell on that night. It would give Town a breather 1 night in 3 but also push the Witch to be more wary about what info is released by Town etc, so as to choose who best to use each night.


Just a random thought.
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Re: Witch idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:34 am

Witch might need a nerf if its horrible wincon

But this is defo not the right nerf
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Re: Witch idea

Postby EtherealEnder » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:31 am

ive never seen witch be OP
in fact due to its win condition requiring being alive, i think being very powerful is required
My name is Axeras :>



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Re: Witch idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:52 pm

EtherealEnder wrote:ive never seen witch be OP
in fact due to its win condition requiring being alive, i think being very powerful is required


Yeah this

I have always though this


If it wasnt for its horrible wincon then witch would be overpowered
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Re: Witch idea

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:53 am

I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Witch idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:59 am

Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go
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Re: Witch idea

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:55 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Witch idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:21 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it


"See the town lose" means witch has the combined wincon of every evil role in the game, that goes beyond the limit of brokennes even in chaos modes

In TG we have something like "Live to see the town lose or see the selected faction win", it means witch can select an evil faction and if they die, they can still win with said faction

Anywqy, whatever buff witch gets to its wincon, and remove the "you steal your target's results if they have investigative properties"
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Re: Witch idea

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:34 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it


"See the town lose" means witch has the combined wincon of every evil role in the game, that goes beyond the limit of brokennes even in chaos modes

In TG we have something like "Live to see the town lose or see the selected faction win", it means witch can select an evil faction and if they die, they can still win with said faction

Anywqy, whatever buff witch gets to its wincon, and remove the "you steal your target's results if they have investigative properties"


TG shouldn't be the gold standard of balance, they have some good ideas but generally witches will just choose Mafia (which y'know in ranked is good).
But even if the nk was around it would easily be bet with the mafia because the mafia are very powerful compared to a solo killer.

I dont mind the investigation steal, its useless to have in most cases, but I agree generally.
I guess this balances witch for ALL ANY. and ranked, which i only really care about ranked, which fair enough this is balanced for both.

I'd like to see a more generic message with controls and roleblocks that sort of merge to two, as theirs no point investigates should get results. I guess vigilantes who were controlled should get a special message but its workable (Allows witch /CL to fake escort) which i think is a good thing.

Speaking of witch vigilante should generally have death guilt removed and maybe not even controllable n1, a lot of games where witch get the 1 out of 15 players causing two towns to die, just seems to scum sided, I'd like the see Vigilante have more favour in that sort of interaction to what it is now.

Also Auto vest only should be for scum attacks, maybe showing up suspicous if we implemented your idea of witch winning with a faction. (to let sheriffs have more to do)
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Witch idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:49 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it


"See the town lose" means witch has the combined wincon of every evil role in the game, that goes beyond the limit of brokennes even in chaos modes

In TG we have something like "Live to see the town lose or see the selected faction win", it means witch can select an evil faction and if they die, they can still win with said faction

Anywqy, whatever buff witch gets to its wincon, and remove the "you steal your target's results if they have investigative properties"


TG shouldn't be the gold standard of balance, they have some good ideas but generally witches will just choose Mafia (which y'know in ranked is good).
But even if the nk was around it would easily be bet with the mafia because the mafia are very powerful compared to a solo killer.

I dont mind the investigation steal, its useless to have in most cases, but I agree generally.
I guess this balances witch for ALL ANY. and ranked, which i only really care about ranked, which fair enough this is balanced for both.

I'd like to see a more generic message with controls and roleblocks that sort of merge to two, as theirs no point investigates should get results. I guess vigilantes who were controlled should get a special message but its workable (Allows witch /CL to fake escort) which i think is a good thing.

Speaking of witch vigilante should generally have death guilt removed and maybe not even controllable n1, a lot of games where witch get the 1 out of 15 players causing two towns to die, just seems to scum sided, I'd like the see Vigilante have more favour in that sort of interaction to what it is now.

Also Auto vest only should be for scum attacks, maybe showing up suspicous if we implemented your idea of witch winning with a faction. (to let sheriffs have more to do)


Even all any has a limit on how broken a role can be, and witch winning while dead without any limit goes way beyond that limit

The stealing results makes it even easier for witch to find mafia or whoever they want to win with, im fine with NE having some assistance, but witch has way too much, specially because sometimes you can know who you did visit and thus getting the results would actually make a diference sometimes

About vigi, I 100% agree on it and I will never forgive the TG members for rejecting that vigilante change, it was plain stupid

About the message, that would need the "stealing results" ability to stay where it is, when it should NOT, also it would be a really big buff to CL, like if that shit wasnt overbuffed enough already
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Re: Witch idea

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:24 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it


"See the town lose" means witch has the combined wincon of every evil role in the game, that goes beyond the limit of brokennes even in chaos modes

In TG we have something like "Live to see the town lose or see the selected faction win", it means witch can select an evil faction and if they die, they can still win with said faction

Anywqy, whatever buff witch gets to its wincon, and remove the "you steal your target's results if they have investigative properties"


TG shouldn't be the gold standard of balance, they have some good ideas but generally witches will just choose Mafia (which y'know in ranked is good).
But even if the nk was around it would easily be bet with the mafia because the mafia are very powerful compared to a solo killer.

I dont mind the investigation steal, its useless to have in most cases, but I agree generally.
I guess this balances witch for ALL ANY. and ranked, which i only really care about ranked, which fair enough this is balanced for both.

I'd like to see a more generic message with controls and roleblocks that sort of merge to two, as theirs no point investigates should get results. I guess vigilantes who were controlled should get a special message but its workable (Allows witch /CL to fake escort) which i think is a good thing.

Speaking of witch vigilante should generally have death guilt removed and maybe not even controllable n1, a lot of games where witch get the 1 out of 15 players causing two towns to die, just seems to scum sided, I'd like the see Vigilante have more favour in that sort of interaction to what it is now.

Also Auto vest only should be for scum attacks, maybe showing up suspicous if we implemented your idea of witch winning with a faction. (to let sheriffs have more to do)


Even all any has a limit on how broken a role can be, and witch winning while dead without any limit goes way beyond that limit

The stealing results makes it even easier for witch to find mafia or whoever they want to win with, im fine with NE having some assistance, but witch has way too much, specially because sometimes you can know who you did visit and thus getting the results would actually make a diference sometimes

About vigi, I 100% agree on it and I will never forgive the TG members for rejecting that vigilante change, it was plain stupid

About the message, that would need the "stealing results" ability to stay where it is, when it should NOT, also it would be a really big buff to CL, like if that shit wasnt overbuffed enough already


Eh depends, in all any some games are gonna be insanely town sided or insanely scum sided, id assume witch would have a high win rate, lets say town has 50% witch would also have 50% which i dont find a big problem with but i get your point epically if it was a game with basically no town witch shouldn't get a super high win rate. I just dislike all any as a form of balance.

Vigilante needs changes, people think the death guilt is a way of balancing it, but it makes vigilante even more swingy then it currently is, it shouldn't be able to kill 2 town (itself and another), 1 death is already punishing enough for a town mistake. obviously we need some sort of vigi check.

I dont mind the stealing results aspect personally, unless you wanted witches target to know who they visited it seems like its generally a waste, the only times you'd really know if lookout found you generally it might be semi important to a invest to know what type of player is in game but even then thats a stretch. If its a bit overtuned then i get that, I just think current witch has a great opportunity of allowing escort to be more fakeable. (Especially in coven modes such as TT). With how current spy works it also doesn't allow consorts to always claim escort.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Witch idea

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:41 am

Soulshade55r wrote: Spoiler:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it


"See the town lose" means witch has the combined wincon of every evil role in the game, that goes beyond the limit of brokennes even in chaos modes

In TG we have something like "Live to see the town lose or see the selected faction win", it means witch can select an evil faction and if they die, they can still win with said faction

Anywqy, whatever buff witch gets to its wincon, and remove the "you steal your target's results if they have investigative properties"


TG shouldn't be the gold standard of balance, they have some good ideas but generally witches will just choose Mafia (which y'know in ranked is good).
But even if the nk was around it would easily be bet with the mafia because the mafia are very powerful compared to a solo killer.

I dont mind the investigation steal, its useless to have in most cases, but I agree generally.
I guess this balances witch for ALL ANY. and ranked, which i only really care about ranked, which fair enough this is balanced for both.

I'd like to see a more generic message with controls and roleblocks that sort of merge to two, as theirs no point investigates should get results. I guess vigilantes who were controlled should get a special message but its workable (Allows witch /CL to fake escort) which i think is a good thing.

Speaking of witch vigilante should generally have death guilt removed and maybe not even controllable n1, a lot of games where witch get the 1 out of 15 players causing two towns to die, just seems to scum sided, I'd like the see Vigilante have more favour in that sort of interaction to what it is now.

Also Auto vest only should be for scum attacks, maybe showing up suspicous if we implemented your idea of witch winning with a faction. (to let sheriffs have more to do)


Even all any has a limit on how broken a role can be, and witch winning while dead without any limit goes way beyond that limit

The stealing results makes it even easier for witch to find mafia or whoever they want to win with, im fine with NE having some assistance, but witch has way too much, specially because sometimes you can know who you did visit and thus getting the results would actually make a diference sometimes

About vigi, I 100% agree on it and I will never forgive the TG members for rejecting that vigilante change, it was plain stupid

About the message, that would need the "stealing results" ability to stay where it is, when it should NOT, also it would be a really big buff to CL, like if that shit wasnt overbuffed enough already


Eh depends, in all any some games are gonna be insanely town sided or insanely scum sided, id assume witch would have a high win rate, lets say town has 50% witch would also have 50% which i dont find a big problem with but i get your point epically if it was a game with basically no town witch shouldn't get a super high win rate. I just dislike all any as a form of balance.
games are much more likely to be scumsided, last time I checked town had around 30% wr in classic all any, in coven all any it must be weaker since there are more evil DLC roles than town DLC roles and thus, rolling town is less likely

Vigilante needs changes, people think the death guilt is a way of balancing it, but it makes vigilante even more swingy then it currently is, it shouldn't be able to kill 2 town (itself and another), 1 death is already punishing enough for a town mistake. obviously we need some sort of vigi check.
yes, but wdym by vigi check?

I dont mind the stealing results aspect personally, unless you wanted witches target to know who they visited it seems like its generally a waste, the only times you'd really know if lookout found you generally it might be semi important to a invest to know what type of player is in game but even then thats a stretch. If its a bit overtuned then i get that, I just think current witch has a great opportunity of allowing escort to be more fakeable. (Especially in coven modes such as TT). With how current spy works it also doesn't allow consorts to always claim escort.
NE should have an ASSISTANCE to find their teammates, witch has much more than that

about the message think, I would love CL not getting the same buffs as witch, but devs seem to not like that option

anyway, CL is...yeah fuck it im saying it, CL is overpowered, if it wasnt for its invest results then it would be exremely broken, witch is suposed to be stronger than a factional member cause witch is on its own, CL is a fucking factional member with the exact same buffs as witch, allowing it to consistently claim escort is overkilling it with buffs
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Re: Witch idea

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:57 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote: Spoiler:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I think people mentioning witches wincon, have some sort of point; The witch needs to generally be overpowered compared to lets say a normal mafia members abilites.

Because they have a harsh wincon which is A: survivors already B: must see town lose
They can get caught quite easily, prolly have slightly less survivability then survivor (seeing as survivor having 4 immunties in a game that normally ends day 5-7 vs witches one time autovest).

Witch in a sense is both strong and weak.



I know that, it still has way too much on its kit, if its wincon ever gets something less stupid then the stealing results 100% has to go


The only wincon id be fine is "see the town lose" i dont want witch to not have a anti town wincon.

Investigative results act as a way to find neutrals/evils currently, i dont think its completely a terrible idea that witch has some way of finding them, obviously they can still find killers but its still something i like. I actually dont even think the consigilere aspect of witch is a bad thing or super op. certainly not what i think is wrong with witch.

most peoples problems with which is how much chaos and disruption it can cause, my main issue is the vigilante interaction is completely dumb and can screw over town so easily. theirs not a clear solution to "fixing" witch without making it


"See the town lose" means witch has the combined wincon of every evil role in the game, that goes beyond the limit of brokennes even in chaos modes

In TG we have something like "Live to see the town lose or see the selected faction win", it means witch can select an evil faction and if they die, they can still win with said faction

Anywqy, whatever buff witch gets to its wincon, and remove the "you steal your target's results if they have investigative properties"


TG shouldn't be the gold standard of balance, they have some good ideas but generally witches will just choose Mafia (which y'know in ranked is good).
But even if the nk was around it would easily be bet with the mafia because the mafia are very powerful compared to a solo killer.

I dont mind the investigation steal, its useless to have in most cases, but I agree generally.
I guess this balances witch for ALL ANY. and ranked, which i only really care about ranked, which fair enough this is balanced for both.

I'd like to see a more generic message with controls and roleblocks that sort of merge to two, as theirs no point investigates should get results. I guess vigilantes who were controlled should get a special message but its workable (Allows witch /CL to fake escort) which i think is a good thing.

Speaking of witch vigilante should generally have death guilt removed and maybe not even controllable n1, a lot of games where witch get the 1 out of 15 players causing two towns to die, just seems to scum sided, I'd like the see Vigilante have more favour in that sort of interaction to what it is now.

Also Auto vest only should be for scum attacks, maybe showing up suspicous if we implemented your idea of witch winning with a faction. (to let sheriffs have more to do)


Even all any has a limit on how broken a role can be, and witch winning while dead without any limit goes way beyond that limit

The stealing results makes it even easier for witch to find mafia or whoever they want to win with, im fine with NE having some assistance, but witch has way too much, specially because sometimes you can know who you did visit and thus getting the results would actually make a diference sometimes

About vigi, I 100% agree on it and I will never forgive the TG members for rejecting that vigilante change, it was plain stupid

About the message, that would need the "stealing results" ability to stay where it is, when it should NOT, also it would be a really big buff to CL, like if that shit wasnt overbuffed enough already


Eh depends, in all any some games are gonna be insanely town sided or insanely scum sided, id assume witch would have a high win rate, lets say town has 50% witch would also have 50% which i dont find a big problem with but i get your point epically if it was a game with basically no town witch shouldn't get a super high win rate. I just dislike all any as a form of balance.
games are much more likely to be scumsided, last time I checked town had around 30% wr in classic all any, in coven all any it must be weaker since there are more evil DLC roles than town DLC roles and thus, rolling town is less likely

Vigilante needs changes, people think the death guilt is a way of balancing it, but it makes vigilante even more swingy then it currently is, it shouldn't be able to kill 2 town (itself and another), 1 death is already punishing enough for a town mistake. obviously we need some sort of vigi check.
yes, but wdym by vigi check?

I dont mind the stealing results aspect personally, unless you wanted witches target to know who they visited it seems like its generally a waste, the only times you'd really know if lookout found you generally it might be semi important to a invest to know what type of player is in game but even then thats a stretch. If its a bit overtuned then i get that, I just think current witch has a great opportunity of allowing escort to be more fakeable. (Especially in coven modes such as TT). With how current spy works it also doesn't allow consorts to always claim escort.
NE should have an ASSISTANCE to find their teammates, witch has much more than that

about the message think, I would love CL not getting the same buffs as witch, but devs seem to not like that option

anyway, CL is...yeah fuck it im saying it, CL is overpowered, if it wasnt for its invest results then it would be exremely broken, witch is suposed to be stronger than a factional member cause witch is on its own, CL is a fucking factional member with the exact same buffs as witch, allowing it to consistently claim escort is overkilling it with buffs


by vigi check i mean some sort of guilt, like throwing away bullets, this leads to vigilantes being punished but not punished hard, the nature of town killing they are confirmable, but i dont see that as a issue aslong as we're focusing on making more roles harder to confirm in general. (vigilante/veteran/VH, already have easy confirmability).

CL compared to Godfather is for sure way overpowered, with the Necronomicon ontop of being a witch it becomes a godfather, night immune witch.
I'd say i have a lot of issues with how a lot of coven is balanced my main issues are general CL & Poisoner

Coven:
Medusa: Kinda weird? I dont mind generally how they're balanced, scum vet generally runs into a lot of issues with how medium works.
Necromancer: suffers from some problems that retri has, needs to be allowed to target themselves aswell, they could possibly be buffed
Hex Master: stronger framer? with a scum arsonist? It works
Potion Master: I really like this role personally, flexible scum.
Poisoner: can either be OP or useless. Which i dislike, also poisoner getting Necronomicon can be the worst crap in the game

I've always seen coven as the "KPN" Faction, with the way Necronomicon and each coven gets a way of killing. I like how its different from the basics of mafia, but their needs to be more consistency and more ways to prevent coven from having their KPN too high or low depending on what you get. I'm very mixed on the faction in general.

EDIT:
I think witch being powerful is generally fine, town like vigilante being able to kill them, I think even if you removed the consig aspect they'd be able to find MK, SK's ect. Its just sometimes they seem to have a lot of trouble without that, I get your point.

NE's need a overhaul in general, we need to get jester/exe into another slot or rework how they work from the ground up. We need a lot of witch tweaks, which i doubt we'll ever get at this point.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Soulshade55r
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