Survivor Rework

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Survivor Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:10 am

This role was originally suggested by Vampire Acolyte. Here is my proposal for a reworked version.

Role Name:
Survivor

Alignment:
Neutral (Benign)

Summary:
You are a traitor to anyone who is no longer of use to you.

Attack: None
Defense: Basic (autovest)
Unique: No
Priority: 6 (Wincon Gain)
Abilities:
Visit one player each night, obtaining their wincon and redirecting all harmful visits from them onto yourself.

Attributes:
You will not gain a night chat if you have a factional role's win condition.
Your new wincon does not change until after all deaths are processed.
You may not change win conditions in consecutive nights.
You will be informed of your current wincon.

Investigative Results:
Same as current Survivor.

Notifications:
You have decided to protect (X).
You instead decided to protect (X).
You redirected an attack onto yourself!
You must wait a night before changing win conditions.
Your Win Condition has changed.

Mechanics:(A more in-depth explanation of the role, with specific special interactions)
Spoiler: Your target will not be informed that you are aligned with them.
There is a one-night cooldown between changing win conditions.
Your win condition changes the following day.
After choosing your target, you win if you survive to see them win regardless of whether you fulfill their personal win condition.
You are roleblock and control immune.
Harmful effects include attacks, douses, poisons, hexes, frames, blackmails, roleblocks, and controls.


Goal:
Live to see your most recent target win the game.

Wins Conditions:
(Any/All)

Achievements:
[Win 1/5/10/25 Games]
Assistance Required - Gain the win condition of a Jester.
Secondcoming - Gain the win condition of Pestilence, Horseman of the Apocalypse.
Capofamiglia - Gain a Mafia member's win condition.

Examples:
A is a Survivor.
B is Pestilence, Horseman of the Apocalypse.
C is Doctor.

A visits B.
B visits C.
C visits A.

A receives the following notifications:
Your Win Condition has changed.
You were attacked but someone nursed you back to health!

B receives the following notifications:
You attacked someone. [x2]
Your target's defense was too strong to kill.

C receives the following notifications:
Your target was attacked last night!
You were obliterated by Pestilence!
You have died!

A and B win the game.


Lore:
N/A
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:50 pm

Why the basic defense?
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:30 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Why the basic defense?


To further discourage it from changing its wincon. Also without defense it's just a defenseless survivor with a slightly suicidal ability that can't win with everyone.
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby SkyW » Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:26 pm

Unless you choose a confirmed role, you're going to be playing with a disadvantage simply due to the fact that there's no clear goal for you. How are you supposed to really make decisions in your best interests if you don't know what your interests are? And once you do know what your win condition is, you have no way to actually confirm to other people that this is in fact your win condition. Mafia will see you as a ballsy sheriff making the whisper to get that confirm. Townies will see you as "eh, they're not a real town and might not be with us, hang em."

I think not knowing your win condition and having no real abilities is too much of a disadvantage for... well. No advantage at all really.
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:23 am

SkyW wrote:Unless you choose a confirmed role, you're going to be playing with a disadvantage simply due to the fact that there's no clear goal for you. How are you supposed to really make decisions in your best interests if you don't know what your interests are? And once you do know what your win condition is, you have no way to actually confirm to other people that this is in fact your win condition. Mafia will see you as a ballsy sheriff making the whisper to get that confirm. Townies will see you as "eh, they're not a real town and might not be with us, hang em."

I think not knowing your win condition and having no real abilities is too much of a disadvantage for... well. No advantage at all really.


The issue is that if you don't learn which side you're playing for, you won't really know what to do as you are saying. But if you do learn that information you have the potential to confirm someone as Town to some extent. Of course two Mafia members or a Viper siding scum could lie, and now that I think about it if you learned your faction a Viper siding scum could easily fake Viper siding Town to "confirm" their target. The only drawback is that if your buddy dies, you are confirmed evil, so I'm not sure how many people will pursue this strategy. What do others think? Should Viper learn its faction?
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby SkyW » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:46 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
SkyW wrote: Spoiler: Unless you choose a confirmed role, you're going to be playing with a disadvantage simply due to the fact that there's no clear goal for you. How are you supposed to really make decisions in your best interests if you don't know what your interests are? And once you do know what your win condition is, you have no way to actually confirm to other people that this is in fact your win condition. Mafia will see you as a ballsy sheriff making the whisper to get that confirm. Townies will see you as "eh, they're not a real town and might not be with us, hang em."

I think not knowing your win condition and having no real abilities is too much of a disadvantage for... well. No advantage at all really.


Spoiler: The issue is that if you don't learn which side you're playing for, you won't really know what to do as you are saying. But if you do learn that information you have the potential to confirm someone as Town to some extent. Of course two Mafia members or a Viper siding scum could lie, and now that I think about it if you learned your faction a Viper siding scum could easily fake Viper siding Town to "confirm" their target. The only drawback is that if your buddy dies, you are confirmed evil, so I'm not sure how many people will pursue this strategy. What do others think? Should Viper learn its faction?


I'm having some trouble understanding what you said. Perhaps I should've read more books as a kid.

I think not knowing what your wincon is is a huge problem for the role ( you have no way to tell what actions benefit or harm you.) It's the most major problem that's gonna make the role unfun to play since... you lack any real strategy other than "survive"

But even ignoring this, you're basically just a bad bodyguard. You'll select someone each night to protect, gaining their win condition and potentially dying if the attack is stronger than basic. Sort of like a neutral doctor. Problem is... your abilities really benefit the town more than anyone else. After all, most killing will be done by mafia and NK. Not like you can stop Veteran or Jailor kills, only Vigilante shots. If you successfully help someone out, you've stopped a death. That is your only way to help out, is stopping evil actions.

You see how this role's actions would hurt Maf and NK and aid Town, right? As such... you're gonna wanna always side with town. Guarding NK is pointless as they already have defense. Guarding Mafia helps them but... eh? Why help them?
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:59 pm

SkyW wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
SkyW wrote: Spoiler: Unless you choose a confirmed role, you're going to be playing with a disadvantage simply due to the fact that there's no clear goal for you. How are you supposed to really make decisions in your best interests if you don't know what your interests are? And once you do know what your win condition is, you have no way to actually confirm to other people that this is in fact your win condition. Mafia will see you as a ballsy sheriff making the whisper to get that confirm. Townies will see you as "eh, they're not a real town and might not be with us, hang em."

I think not knowing your win condition and having no real abilities is too much of a disadvantage for... well. No advantage at all really.


Spoiler: The issue is that if you don't learn which side you're playing for, you won't really know what to do as you are saying. But if you do learn that information you have the potential to confirm someone as Town to some extent. Of course two Mafia members or a Viper siding scum could lie, and now that I think about it if you learned your faction a Viper siding scum could easily fake Viper siding Town to "confirm" their target. The only drawback is that if your buddy dies, you are confirmed evil, so I'm not sure how many people will pursue this strategy. What do others think? Should Viper learn its faction?


I'm having some trouble understanding what you said. Perhaps I should've read more books as a kid.

I think not knowing what your wincon is is a huge problem for the role ( you have no way to tell what actions benefit or harm you.) It's the most major problem that's gonna make the role unfun to play since... you lack any real strategy other than "survive"

But even ignoring this, you're basically just a bad bodyguard. You'll select someone each night to protect, gaining their win condition and potentially dying if the attack is stronger than basic. Sort of like a neutral doctor. Problem is... your abilities really benefit the town more than anyone else. After all, most killing will be done by mafia and NK. Not like you can stop Veteran or Jailor kills, only Vigilante shots. If you successfully help someone out, you've stopped a death. That is your only way to help out, is stopping evil actions.

You see how this role's actions would hurt Maf and NK and aid Town, right? As such... you're gonna wanna always side with town. Guarding NK is pointless as they already have defense. Guarding Mafia helps them but... eh? Why help them?


If you help scum you can stop TIs from checking your target or move an Escort off of them. And probably some other things too.

I was trying to say before that if you learn your target's faction you can confirm someone as Town which isn't great.
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby SkyW » Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:24 pm

Sheriff
Spoiler: You select a mafia to help them
You become sus because your target is sus / You don't become sus in alternate universe
Sheriff checks your target / Sheriff checks your target
Sheriff's check is redirected to you / Sheriff's check is redirected to you
Sheriff has no idea and just marks the target as sus / Sheriff sees that they aren't sus. Marks them.
Sheriff tells everyone your target is sus / Sheriff tells everyone your target isn't sus

Everyone just ignores Sheriff because Sheriff is the least reliable TI.


Investigator
Spoiler: You select a mafia to help them
Investigator checks your target
Investigation is redirected to you
Investigator marks down "Doc/SK/Disq/Vip"
Mafia doesn't claim doctor because why would they
Investigator tells everyone that contradicts their evidence
Target gets lynched for claiming something they didn't know would be on their investigator check


Tracker
Spoiler: You select a mafia to help them
Tracker checks your target
Tracker is redirected to you
Tracker sees you visit the person they chose
Tracker now knows there's a viper, tells everyone.


Lookout
Spoiler: You select a mafia to help them
Lookout checks your target
Lookout is redirected to you
Lookout doesn't see anything
Lookout doesn't need to see anything, they watched a mafia who didn't die. They go back to perma watching confirmed townie.


Redirecting TI's accomplishes very little. Best case scenario with a buff where you don't gain your target's sus factor, you delay a sheriff. Worst case scenario the person you tried to help's claim they set up is now ruined by the investigator's false report.

As for other negative effects

Transporter: Confusing nonsense ensues
Escort: Actually helpful! Until they get murdered and their Basically Doctor was busy getting freaky
Vigi: "They were immune EZ found the godfather"

Escort is the only town role you can really stop that'll be useful to stop. Your basically doctorness is what makes the role strong, not the psuedo-roleblock of visit redirecting.
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:13 pm

I added an autovest and am now allowing Viper to learn its current win condition. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Viper Rework

Postby MR60G0LD » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:49 pm

It is an interesting role, an improvement over the original, I like it but for some reason it gives me a gut feeling that something is wrong with it, though I can't pinpoint what exactly.

Until i figure out what makes me feel so uncertain about this I don't really have any complaints or suggestions, nice job.
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