Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

How should this role be buffed?

Double sacrifices
2
17%
Rampage kills
5
42%
Other (please explain)
1
8%
It's good as it is
1
8%
It's OP
1
8%
The concept should be scrapped (please explain)
2
17%
 
Total votes : 12

Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Mon May 10, 2021 3:39 pm

I'm gonna take a stab at making a Coven role. This is my first one ever. It's going to be a Coven Executioner because why not.

Role Name:
Ritualist

Role Alignment:
Coven Evil

Abilities:
Curse two players every night.

Attributes:
If a cursed player is lynched, you may deal a basic rampage attack against one player the following night.
All players are notified when a cursed player is lynched.
Curses are permanent.
With the Necronomicon, you may deal a basic rampage attack against someone regardless of whether a cursed person was lynched.

Goal:
Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Win Conditions:
Same as Coven

Additional Information:
Multitasking is allowed even with the Necronomicon.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby runningwiththepower » Mon May 10, 2021 6:55 pm

i already mentioned my critiques on the discord :P

/suppport i think this could be fun!!! :D
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby superdog551 » Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 pm

I don't play coven much but this SEEMS good to me, though I do have a concern. Either this role gets lucky and town mislynches their sacrifice or they have to actually push whoever they sacrifice... The problem comes when they push a mislynch as no matter what town will kill them. Town would know this role is a possibility so the second it pushes for someone to get killed it will either be executed or lynched next I feel. Also, even if a sacrifice gets lynched as soon as the ritualist kills the town knows they are in the game and will be more wary to push lynches hard which makes it harder for this role to get successful sacrifices.

I can't be sure that's how it would play out but I am just thinking about it in my head. It definitely needs a buff IMO, maybe rampage kills but idk without testing if that would be too powerful
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Mon May 10, 2021 8:38 pm

superdog551 wrote:I don't play coven much but this SEEMS good to me, though I do have a concern. Either this role gets lucky and town mislynches their sacrifice or they have to actually push whoever they sacrifice... The problem comes when they push a mislynch as no matter what town will kill them. Town would know this role is a possibility so the second it pushes for someone to get killed it will either be executed or lynched next I feel. Also, even if a sacrifice gets lynched as soon as the ritualist kills the town knows they are in the game and will be more wary to push lynches hard which makes it harder for this role to get successful sacrifices.

I can't be sure that's how it would play out but I am just thinking about it in my head. It definitely needs a buff IMO, maybe rampage kills but idk without testing if that would be too powerful


It's not like Executioner where it needs one person to be lynched, so it can just pick quiet/scummy people and lightly push if any of them are accused. It's definitely UP but I doubt it's useless.

Assuming a 6 night game with lynches every day and random targets, the Ritualist could expect to get 1.4 kills (more if the Coven avoid killing sacrificed players). Either rampage attacks or double targeting would roughly double this number and put it at just under 0.5 KPN, which seems fair for a Coven role that relies on raw killing power. My issue with rampage attacks is that they're swingy and could encourage the Ritualist to sacrifice and push a fellow Coven member. Allowing it to target Coven roles makes it more powerful and wouldn't cause major problems since a 1f1 would be bad for Coven, but a rampage could change this. Double sacrifices (sacrificing two players but still only killing one) could get boring but wouldn't have the problems of a rampage.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby superdog551 » Mon May 10, 2021 8:49 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I don't play coven much but this SEEMS good to me, though I do have a concern. Either this role gets lucky and town mislynches their sacrifice or they have to actually push whoever they sacrifice... The problem comes when they push a mislynch as no matter what town will kill them. Town would know this role is a possibility so the second it pushes for someone to get killed it will either be executed or lynched next I feel. Also, even if a sacrifice gets lynched as soon as the ritualist kills the town knows they are in the game and will be more wary to push lynches hard which makes it harder for this role to get successful sacrifices.

I can't be sure that's how it would play out but I am just thinking about it in my head. It definitely needs a buff IMO, maybe rampage kills but idk without testing if that would be too powerful


It's not like Executioner where it needs one person to be lynched, so it can just pick quiet/scummy people and lightly push if any of them are accused. It's definitely UP but I doubt it's useless.

Assuming a 6 night game with lynches every day and random targets, the Ritualist could expect to get 1.4 kills (more if the Coven avoid killing sacrificed players). Either rampage attacks or double targeting would roughly double this number and put it at just under 0.5 KPN, which seems fair for a Coven role that relies on raw killing power. My issue with rampage attacks is that they're swingy and could encourage the Ritualist to sacrifice and push a fellow Coven member. Allowing it to target Coven roles makes it more powerful and wouldn't cause major problems since a 1f1 would be bad for Coven, but a rampage could change this. Double sacrifices (sacrificing two players but still only killing one) could get boring but wouldn't have the problems of a rampage.


I don't think it's useless I'm just saying once it's confirmed there is one it may be pretty hard to push any mislynch without town being suspicious. I see what you mean about rampages, double sacrifices seems like a good buff too and it would counteract the town being suspicious because there would be enough people selected that at least one of them would get lynched
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby runningwiththepower » Mon May 10, 2021 9:25 pm

The reason why I went for Rampage instead of Double Sacrifice is because I feel like Rampage is, IMO, a bit more unique of a mechanic for the Coven to possess & helps really hone in on the whole Coven schema of them all being a bunch of dangerous evil magic users with a lot of powerful Kill Potential.

I think voting would be a lot more tense in Coven matches with this Role around but hey. voting is always tense <3
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:49 am

I'm going to submit this to the TG since we should try having a Coven role. I added the double sacrifices as a buff as opposed to rampages since rampages could potentially encourage the Ritualist to sacrifice and push its own Coven members.

What do you think about giving it stronger attacks? It's still a relatively weak role and when it gets someone lynched it should be rewarded substantially. Maybe I can make the attacks astral so that it's basically guaranteed to make a successful kill?
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby Parallax7 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:49 am

Definitely think there needs to be a global notification the lynched player was sacrificed. Apart from that, I like the concept.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:14 am

Parallax7 wrote:Definitely think there needs to be a global notification the lynched player was sacrificed. Apart from that, I like the concept.

Why would that matter? It's just a single kill.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby Parallax7 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:18 am

alex1234321 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Definitely think there needs to be a global notification the lynched player was sacrificed. Apart from that, I like the concept.

Why would that matter? It's just a single kill.


For counter-play, increasing KPN in a game like Mafia is potentially very swingy in nature.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:43 am

Parallax7 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Definitely think there needs to be a global notification the lynched player was sacrificed. Apart from that, I like the concept.

Why would that matter? It's just a single kill.


For counter-play, increasing KPN in a game like Mafia is potentially very swingy in nature.


The counter-play is choosing not to lynch the sacrificed player. If there's a global notification, what would you do to prevent the Ritualist from killing someone? Ofc if you're an Escort you're going to roleblock someone scummy and if you're a TP you're going to protect someone who you think will die, but neither of those actions is any different from what you would do in a normal situation.

You could argue that the current counter-play of not mislynching is the same as how you would play normally, but the Ritualist is likely to lightly push anyone who is sacrificed. The difference is that normally a scum who pushes hard for a mislynch (such as faking a red check) will get killed the next day, so you would get a 1f1. No scum besides Exe would do that since 1f1s help Town. Here, if a Coven member besides the Ritualist pushes the mislynch, the Ritualist could get an extra kill off and make it a 2f1, which helps scum. So I think the role would play more like an Exe than a role like Mortician. The difference between Ritualist and Exe is that Ritualist is a threatening Coven role, so Town members would be more willing to lynch the accuser first than they would in games where the the accuser can't be anything worse than an Executioner.

In other words, the main counter-play would be to somewhat switch from an accused-first strategy to an accuser-first strategy if you think there's a Ritualist.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:00 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I'm gonna take a stab at making a Coven role. This is my first one ever. It's going to be a Coven Executioner because why not.

Role Name:
Ritualist

Role Alignment:
Coven Evil

Abilities:
Sacrifice two players every night.

Attributes:
If a sacrificed player is lynched, you may deal a basic attack against one player the following night.
Sacrifices are permanent.
With the Necronomicon, you have the option to deal a basic attack against your target instead of sacrificing them.

Goal:
Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Win Conditions:
Same as Coven

Additional Information:
Multitasking is allowed.


When compared to certain coven roles like poisoner who will always have a consistent KPN of 1 (but delayed) it's pretty weak. This in theory has a 1 KPN without Necronomicon if played perfectly. (not the first night)

Also the Necronomicon is one of the worst in the game.

I feel like the current state of this role would be "oh ffs we wanted a Pm or Posioner ect. Instead of oh cool a Ritualist.

Coven have plenty of issues as a faction but i think a lot of it can be fixed and needs to be addressed before making new roles.

But the concept is kind of interesting
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:15 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:When compared to certain coven roles like poisoner who will always have a consistent KPN of 1 (but delayed) it's pretty weak. This in theory has a 0.5 KPN without Necronomicon if played perfectly.

Also the Necronomicon is one of the worst in the game.

I feel like the current state of this role would be "oh ffs we wanted a Pm or Posioner ect. Instead of oh cool a Ritualist.

Coven have plenty of issues as a faction but i think a lot of it can be fixed and needs to be addressed before making new roles.

But the concept is kind of interesting


Since it can multitask, it can get up to 1 KPN by having a sacrifice get lynched every day. In one of my earlier posts I calculated that average KPN would be somewhere in the vicinity of 0.5 or maybe slightly below.

The necro ability gives it a floor of 1 KPN, and it can get more kills if an earlier sacrifice is lynched. Compared to Medusa for example, it has higher kill potential but a weaker attack. Its necro ability is strictly stronger than Poisoner, which only gets a basic delayed attack and never can get more than 1 KPN.

I agree that Coven needs to be fixed. But the concept of a faction that relies on kill power isn't fundamentally broken. If all of the existing roles were fixed, the faction would no longer have any major issues. Plus, making new Coven roles could make the DLC less dead and would make it more worthwhile for BMG to fix the existing Coven roles.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:00 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:When compared to certain coven roles like poisoner who will always have a consistent KPN of 1 (but delayed) it's pretty weak. This in theory has a 0.5 KPN without Necronomicon if played perfectly.

Also the Necronomicon is one of the worst in the game.

I feel like the current state of this role would be "oh ffs we wanted a Pm or Posioner ect. Instead of oh cool a Ritualist.

Coven have plenty of issues as a faction but i think a lot of it can be fixed and needs to be addressed before making new roles.

But the concept is kind of interesting


Since it can multitask, it can get up to 1 KPN by having a sacrifice get lynched every day. In one of my earlier posts I calculated that average KPN would be somewhere in the vicinity of 0.5 or maybe slightly below.

The necro ability gives it a floor of 1 KPN, and it can get more kills if an earlier sacrifice is lynched. Compared to Medusa for example, it has higher kill potential but a weaker attack. Its necro ability is strictly stronger than Poisoner, which only gets a basic delayed attack and never can get more than 1 KPN.

I agree that Coven needs to be fixed. But the concept of a faction that relies on kill power isn't fundamentally broken. If all of the existing roles were fixed, the faction would no longer have any major issues. Plus, making new Coven roles could make the DLC less dead and would make it more worthwhile for BMG to fix the existing Coven roles.



Kpn for coven generally is all over the place depending on what roles spawn I obviously think poisoner is the worst offender while Necromancer/Pm are fairly balanced.

The entire ability of this role is to currently predict a lynch and gain a kill for that prediction which is pretty weak for a coven role epically when a lot of the other coven have support or deception abilities
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:54 pm

It's a cool concept, although I have a few issues.

The first is that the term "sacrifice" doesn't really make sense because the target doesn't die. Maybe something like "curse" would work better?

The other is that double-targeting and permanent sacrifices seems a bit OP in my opinion. I would suggest either only have the sacrifices last for a day or two or restrict it to a single sacrifice per night.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:41 am

Soulshade55r wrote:Kpn for coven generally is all over the place depending on what roles spawn I obviously think poisoner is the worst offender while Necromancer/Pm are fairly balanced.

The entire ability of this role is to currently predict a lynch and gain a kill for that prediction which is pretty weak for a coven role epically when a lot of the other coven have support or deception abilities


Ezradekezra wrote:It's a cool concept, although I have a few issues.

The first is that the term "sacrifice" doesn't really make sense because the target doesn't die. Maybe something like "curse" would work better?

The other is that double-targeting and permanent sacrifices seems a bit OP in my opinion. I would suggest either only have the sacrifices last for a day or two or restrict it to a single sacrifice per night.


Yeah curse does sound better. I'll change the OP.

Anyway, I have one person here saying it's UP and one saying it's OP. What do you think the KPN of this role would be for an average player, and what do you think would be an ideal KPN for a balanced Coven role that relies on killing?

Based on my math above, I would expect the Ritualist to get 2.8 kills assuming no Necronomicon in a 6 night game, which comes out to 0.47 KPN. On average a Coven role should have around 0.5 KPN imo. With 3 Coven roles besides the CL you'd get 1.5 KPN, which seems fair in exchange for limited deception abilities compared to Mafia.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:06 am

It's a morph of one of the dislike roles to play in the game. No, just straight up no. I don't ever see this being added and it doesn't fit with the concept of other coven roles.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:44 am

I took a look at this again and it seem like rampage attacks are really popular. It might be a bit OP, but the ability is a double-edged sword and can easily result in the death of either the Ritualist or another Coven member.

This might be OP, so I am taking Parallax's suggestion and creating a global notification when a cursed player is lynched.

I'm resubmitting this role to the TG. The playstyle is similar to Executioner but far more versatile. A low-risk, low-reward strategy would be to curse scummy non-Coven players and hope one of them is lynched. An similar alternative strategy would be to curse fellow Coven members and bus then in an attempt to kill multiple non-Coven members in a rampage. A much higher-risk strategy would be to curse non-Coven and have a different Coven member act like an Executioner. Ideally, the cursed player would be lynched and the Ritualist can perform a rampage at the expense of having the other Coven member get shot or executed that night.
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby ak521 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:02 am

alex1234321 wrote:I'm gonna take a stab at making a Coven role. This is my first one ever. It's going to be a Coven Executioner because why not.

Role Name:
Ritualist

Role Alignment:
Coven Evil

Abilities:
Curse two players every night.

Attributes:
If a cursed player is lynched, you may deal a basic rampage attack against one player the following night.
All players are notified when a cursed player is lynched.
Curses are permanent.
With the Necronomicon, you may deal a basic rampage attack against someone regardless of whether a cursed person was lynched.

Goal:
Kill all who would oppose the Coven.

Win Conditions:
Same as Coven

Additional Information:
Multitasking is allowed even with the Necronomicon.


I think this is a great role however I'd suggest a nerf; either
1) Don't allow multi tasking. After the successful lynch, allow a rampage but not another curse.
or optimally do
2) Decrease the curse to one per night.

Along with this I'd suggest a buff
1) Upon lynching a cursed target, gain Basic Defense the upcoming night.
Protects against vigilantes but not jailors.

Finally in add'l info I would add
1) You cannot curse your Coven teammates
If this is how it works, of course.

In most cases it will be either the Ritualist or Coven teammates pushing a cursed target. This makes it really obvious who is evil, which is a limitation on the KPN I think is clever.

Really good concept regardless, would love to hear your thoughts on my suggestions.

Also, what would investigative results be?
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Re: Ritualist (Coven Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:46 pm

ak521 wrote:I think this is a great role however I'd suggest a nerf; either
1) Don't allow multi tasking. After the successful lynch, allow a rampage but not another curse.
or optimally do
2) Decrease the curse to one per night.

Both of these could work although I'd prefer the second version because its influence would be more easy to predict. Also the first version would decrease the reward for lynching a cursed target, which is slightly unfair. That being said, we should test this role in the TG to determine whether it's OP or not.

ak521 wrote:Along with this I'd suggest a buff
1) Upon lynching a cursed target, gain Basic Defense the upcoming night.
Protects against vigilantes but not jailors.

I'm on the fence on this one. On one hand, it would further encourage Executioner-type plays which is sort of the point of the role. On the other, do we really want to widen the gap between Vigilante and Jailor?

ak521 wrote:Finally in add'l info I would add
1) You cannot curse your Coven teammates
If this is how it works, of course.

In most cases it will be either the Ritualist or Coven teammates pushing a cursed target. This makes it really obvious who is evil, which is a limitation on the KPN I think is clever.

Really good concept regardless, would love to hear your thoughts on my suggestions.

I allowed this because it would make bussing easier. Even with rampage attacks I doubt anyone would curse a teammate and not use it in an attempt to gain credibility. Bussing is good for the game because it prevents TIs who find scum from being completely confirmed. If this gets added to the TG and bussing becomes the prevailing meta then of course that shouldn't be allowed.

ak521 wrote:Also, what would investigative results be?

Investigator/Consigliere/Mayor/Tracker/Plaguebearer/Ritualist
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