2021 Role Ideas Championship || SERVANT WINS

[Ezradekezra]

Alternatively we can just get rid of associate and duelist but that would be unfair to the roles they faced off with originally.

Maybe just bring back Spark Generator and Silencer in that case then?

[WaveAqualei]

Diamond conceded in a discord dm, so we can move forward with the tournament semifinals with elemental going through. That is assuming there's enough interest to do that.

Sure

[runningwiththepower]

OK I am coming in to resuscitate this.

Duelist & Associate are OUT because they were accepted into the TG.
The rounds now are:

ROUND 1: Spark Generator VS Servant.



ROUND 2: Silencer VS Elemental.


RULES
Contestants may explain why their role is balanced or why their opponent's role is unbalanced, but personal attacks of any kind are not tolerated.
You may vote for roles by typing /vote [role] in this thread or in the #role-idea-contest channel of the TG Discord.
If you wish to vote anonymously, please either PM me on the forums or DM me in Discord.
Ties will be broken by choosing the first role to reach the necessary number of votes.
YOU CAN DEBATE ON DISCORD IF YOU WANT IN THE #role-idea-contest channel.

Prizes:
The winning role will automatically be tested in the TG.
The person who nominates or creates the winning role will receive a custom Discord role.
Additional prizes TBA.

Some of this may be subject to change.


Participating Roles:
Spark Generator by Brilliand
Silencer by runningwiththepower
Servant by Ezradekezra
Elemental by WaveAqualei

Votes:
Servant 0
Spark Generator 0



Spark Generator & Servant have ~48 hours to debate their roles either on here or in the #role-idea-contest.
Good luck & may the best role............win!

[Ezradekezra]

Yay this is finally continuing

---
Spark Generator suffers from a large issue that PB/Pest, Bomber, and other NC roles also suffer from: It forces people to play against their win condition to not die (read: not to win, just to not die). Killing roles will be incentivized to visit protected players, Janitors and Forgers will be incentivized to waste charges, protective roles will be incentivized to go on evil players, and Spies bug players that they otherwise shouldn't to pass the bomb on.

Additionally, Spark Generator can just straight-up screw over a bunch of roles (of all alignments). While a lot of these are scum roles, a not insignificant portion of these are Town roles (and important ones at that, such as Mayor), which when combined with the inherent inconsistency of the role leads to uncontrollable negative utility. Furthermore, getting stuck with the bomb as a role that can't get rid of it is just plain unfun, as afaik the only way to dodge an unstoppable attack is a GA protection (which I think doesn't even apply in some cases or something, it's kinda weird).

---
Servant should be a fun role to play as, since it has the most fun aspect of being an informed minority role (having a night chat and teammates), has some degree of autonomy (more than Mafioso does when the GF is alive), and doesn't necessarily have to worry about deception. Unlike Spark Generator, it shouldn't make anyone else's experience less enjoyable at the very least.

While NBs are inherently unbalanced due to being kingmakers in some capacity or another, Servant suffers from this the least compared to Survivor, Amnesiac, and Guardian Angel. The aforementioned three roles all have ways of switching sides mid-game (GA can do this by turning into a Survivor), Servant cannot switch sides after being assigned an employer.

[Brilliand]

Spark Generator is an effective Town role not because of its ability to kill, but because it adds a great deal of information to the game, which can be analyzed to help identify who the scum are. It effectively functions as an investigative role, by creating a discussion in day chat about who gave the bomb to who, and who should receive the bomb next. This is an interesting mechanic that provides a net benefit to Town, though the Mafia does have ways to abuse it - including using the Witch to give the bomb to the Mayor.

----

Servant, on the other hand, is just... an additional member for a random faction? Oh, and it has the Mafioso's ability to act on behalf of its master, except not faction-specific. This strikes me as... not interesting enough to put in the game.

Yes, its most serious flaw (that it functions as an additional member for a random faction) is something that shares with Guardian Angel, so let's compare it with Guardian angel.

• Servant always has exactly its target's win condition. Guardian Angel needs its target to "survive", which can sometimes create a little conflict.
• Guardian Angel has a unique mechanic and goal that's interesting in its own right, even if the balance is off. Servant's ability to be a generalized Mafioso does not qualify, imo.
• Guardian Angel is a role that Town players will sometimes fakeclaim to trick scum into revealing themselves. This can't happen with Servant, because Servant gets included in the faction's night chat.

Spark Generator suffers from a large issue that PB/Pest, Bomber, and other NC roles also suffer from: It forces people to play against their win condition to not die (read: not to win, just to not die). Killing roles will be incentivized to visit protected players, Janitors and Forgers will be incentivized to waste charges, protective roles will be incentivized to go on evil players, and Spies bug players that they otherwise shouldn't to pass the bomb on.

Lots of roles have abilities that make the most direct path to victory a bad idea. Heck, Doctor (one of the oldest of Mafia roles) has such an ability. Similarly, the Escort is better at wasting players' time than the Spark Generator is - so I don't see this as a serious problem, if indeed it is a problem at all.

Additionally, Spark Generator can just straight-up screw over a bunch of roles (of all alignments). While a lot of these are scum roles, a not insignificant portion of these are Town roles (and important ones at that, such as Mayor), which when combined with the inherent inconsistency of the role leads to uncontrollable negative utility. Furthermore, getting stuck with the bomb as a role that can't get rid of it is just plain unfun, as afaik the only way to dodge an unstoppable attack is a GA protection (which I think doesn't even apply in some cases or something, it's kinda weird).

The fact that some roles have no counterplay once they get the bomb is unfortunate; but the bomb is never really given randomly (apart from night 1, but even that can be averted with D1 chat). If the wrong person gets the bomb, then someone chose to give it to them, so the unfortunate event is not wasted; rather, there's a chance to argue that someone is scum because they i.e. gave the Mayor the bomb.

And of course, even fewer roles have counterplay to getting shot by a Vigilante.

Servant should be a fun role to play as, since it has the most fun aspect of being an informed minority role (having a night chat and teammates), has some degree of autonomy (more than Mafioso does when the GF is alive), and doesn't necessarily have to worry about deception. Unlike Spark Generator, it shouldn't make anyone else's experience less enjoyable at the very least.

Sure, it will annoy people less often than Spark Generator will, but Spark Generator has upsides to compensate for its downsides. I'm not seeing much point to your Servant role. Anything it does can be done better by an actual faction-aligned role. All it really adds to the game is to give solo factions (i.e. Neutral Killing roles, especially Werewolf) the ability to have a "mafioso" serving them, and get one bonus kill out of the deal.

While NBs are inherently unbalanced due to being kingmakers in some capacity or another, Servant suffers from this the least compared to Survivor, Amnesiac, and Guardian Angel. The aforementioned three roles all have ways of switching sides mid-game (GA can do this by turning into a Survivor), Servant cannot switch sides after being assigned an employer.

But that's a flaw of the role! Servant is extra power given to a particular faction solely by random chance, rather than by any player choice. In any sort of list intended to be balanced (i.e. anything without an Any slot), that's going to be a problem. Survivor and Amnesiac, despite being kingmakers, still have actual gameplay in the form of convincing a player to make a particular choice - so they are actually neutrals, not simply an extra faction member classified as a neutral for rolelist purposes. Amnesiac in particular is hardly even a kingmaker, since it has to make its decision before the last day arrives.

Between the three options "assigned your faction by your slot in the rolelist", "you choose your own faction", and "your faction is picked randomly as the game starts independent of roles being rolled", the last of those (the one Servant and Guardian Angel choose) is the worst of those options.

[WaveAqualei]

/vote Servant

[RealityBendr]

/vote servant

[Brilliand]

/vote Spark Generator

[Ezradekezra]

I admittedly forgot about this for a bit

Spark Generator is an effective Town role not because of its ability to kill, but because it adds a great deal of information to the game, which can be analyzed to help identify who the scum are. It effectively functions as an investigative role, by creating a discussion in day chat about who gave the bomb to who, and who should receive the bomb next. This is an interesting mechanic that provides a net benefit to Town, though the Mafia does have ways to abuse it - including using the Witch to give the bomb to the Mayor.

It's a TK, not a TI.

Yes, its most serious flaw (that it functions as an additional member for a random faction) is something that shares with Guardian Angel, so let's compare it with Guardian angel.

• Servant always has exactly its target's win condition. Guardian Angel needs its target to "survive", which can sometimes create a little conflict.
• Guardian Angel has a unique mechanic and goal that's interesting in its own right, even if the balance is off. Servant's ability to be a generalized Mafioso does not qualify, imo.
• Guardian Angel is a role that Town players will sometimes fakeclaim to trick scum into revealing themselves. This can't happen with Servant, because Servant gets included in the faction's night chat.

- I don't see the point here.
- I'll concede this, but I don't think it's as major as you're making it out to be.
- I don't think I've ever seen this strat in use, but GA wouldn't be removed so people could just keep using this strat. I don't see what the problem is.

Spark Generator suffers from a large issue that PB/Pest, Bomber, and other NC roles also suffer from: It forces people to play against their win condition to not die (read: not to win, just to not die). Killing roles will be incentivized to visit protected players, Janitors and Forgers will be incentivized to waste charges, protective roles will be incentivized to go on evil players, and Spies bug players that they otherwise shouldn't to pass the bomb on.

Lots of roles have abilities that make the most direct path to victory a bad idea. Heck, Doctor (one of the oldest of Mafia roles) has such an ability. Similarly, the Escort is better at wasting players' time than the Spark Generator is - so I don't see this as a serious problem, if indeed it is a problem at all.

See the bold.

Additionally, Spark Generator can just straight-up screw over a bunch of roles (of all alignments). While a lot of these are scum roles, a not insignificant portion of these are Town roles (and important ones at that, such as Mayor), which when combined with the inherent inconsistency of the role leads to uncontrollable negative utility. Furthermore, getting stuck with the bomb as a role that can't get rid of it is just plain unfun, as afaik the only way to dodge an unstoppable attack is a GA protection (which I think doesn't even apply in some cases or something, it's kinda weird).

The fact that some roles have no counterplay once they get the bomb is unfortunate; but the bomb is never really given randomly (apart from night 1, but even that can be averted with D1 chat). If the wrong person gets the bomb, then someone chose to give it to them, so the unfortunate event is not wasted; rather, there's a chance to argue that someone is scum because they i.e. gave the Mayor the bomb.

And of course, even fewer roles have counterplay to getting shot by a Vigilante.

Most of the scum roles in question have basic defense.

While NBs are inherently unbalanced due to being kingmakers in some capacity or another, Servant suffers from this the least compared to Survivor, Amnesiac, and Guardian Angel. The aforementioned three roles all have ways of switching sides mid-game (GA can do this by turning into a Survivor), Servant cannot switch sides after being assigned an employer.

But that's a flaw of the role! Servant is extra power given to a particular faction solely by random chance, rather than by any player choice. In any sort of list intended to be balanced (i.e. anything without an Any slot), that's going to be a problem. Survivor and Amnesiac, despite being kingmakers, still have actual gameplay in the form of convincing a player to make a particular choice - so they are actually neutrals, not simply an extra faction member classified as a neutral for rolelist purposes. Amnesiac in particular is hardly even a kingmaker, since it has to make its decision before the last day arrives.

- I never claimed that NBs should go in modes that are intended to be balanced.
- Wouldn't GA (not GA turned Surv) not be neutral either by that same line of logic?

Between the three options "assigned your faction by your slot in the rolelist", "you choose your own faction", and "your faction is picked randomly as the game starts independent of roles being rolled", the last of those (the one Servant and Guardian Angel choose) is the worst of those options.

- I don't really see how they're that much different
- There's precedent in that multiple other roles have their targets chosen the same way

Also since we're apparently doing voting now, /vote Servant

[Brilliand]

Welp, arguing through the voting phase it is. XD

It's a TK, not a TI.

Because it can kill, yes. No TI can kill, while every TK can also investigate at least a little (Vigilante can identify players as having defense, Veteran can tell how many players visited him on an alert night), so I figure a role that "is good at investigating but can also kill a little" should be a TK.

Yes, its most serious flaw (that it functions as an additional member for a random faction) is something that shares with Guardian Angel, so let's compare it with Guardian angel.

• Servant always has exactly its target's win condition. Guardian Angel needs its target to "survive", which can sometimes create a little conflict.
• Guardian Angel has a unique mechanic and goal that's interesting in its own right, even if the balance is off. Servant's ability to be a generalized Mafioso does not qualify, imo.
• Guardian Angel is a role that Town players will sometimes fakeclaim to trick scum into revealing themselves. This can't happen with Servant, because Servant gets included in the faction's night chat.

- I don't see the point here.
- I'll concede this, but I don't think it's as major as you're making it out to be.
- I don't think I've ever seen this strat in use, but GA wouldn't be removed so people could just keep using this strat. I don't see what the problem is.

- The point being that Guardian Angel is not precisely an additional faction member for its assigned side. Allying with a Guardian Angel still takes some effort.
- (We've agreed as much as we're going to. I think it's major ofc.)
- That strat is a good thing! It's one more reason that allying with a Guardian Angel takes effort, i.e. you can't simply believe anyone who says they're your GA. Servant, on the other hand, takes no effort to ally with.

(read: not to win, just to not die)

See the bold.

Meh, the only reason not to die is to improve your chance of winning.

And of course, even fewer roles have counterplay to getting shot by a Vigilante.

Most of the scum roles in question have basic defense.

Your point was that Town roles can get screwed over by the Spark Generator, though.

Saying that the Vigilante is better at screwing over Town than at screwing over scum would seem to be arguing against your own point.

- I never claimed that NBs should go in modes that are intended to be balanced.

Okay. Not going to stop me from evaluating it against that standard.

People do put Neutral Benigns in Custom games sometimes.

- Wouldn't GA (not GA turned Surv) not be neutral either by that same line of logic?

Yes, that's why I spent that whole bulleted list explaining why Guardian Angel is at least a little bit better than Servant. It has the same flaw but to a lesser degree.

Between the three options "assigned your faction by your slot in the rolelist", "you choose your own faction", and "your faction is picked randomly as the game starts independent of roles being rolled", the last of those (the one Servant and Guardian Angel choose) is the worst of those options.

- I don't really see how they're that much different

I'm guessing you're thinking only of All Any.

The whole point of having a rolelist is to eschew option 3 (your faction assignment is independently random) in favor of option 1 (your faction assignment is random but the total number of players in your faction is not). I rather think that roles should support being used in a rolelist even if that isn't where they will show up most.

- There's precedent in that multiple other roles have their targets chosen the same way

Like what? Guardian Angel is the only existing role I know of that can be assigned a target of a random faction as the game starts.

Executioner also gets assigned a random target, but that target is always Town.

[runningwiththepower]

/vote Servant uwu

[Ezradekezra]

(when does voting end)

[runningwiththepower]

Voting ended at midnight

With a vote of 4(Me,Reality,Ezra,Wave) to 1(Brilliand), Servant triumphs over Spark-Generator!
GREAT debate guys, I think both of yall made some really compelling points. I love to see it



ROUND 2 begins..............NOW!

Silencer by Runningwiththepower viewtopic.php?f=27&t=116667&p=3596746&hilit=silencer#p3596746

VS

Elemental by WaveAqualei viewtopic.php?f=27&t=116726&hilit=elemental



Elemental & Silencer have ~48 hours to debate their roles either on here or in the #role-idea-contest. Voting will end on WEDNESDAY at Midnight (so I can allow/pester the people in the TG game to vote lol)
Good luck & may the best role............win!

[WaveAqualei]

@A@ okay.

I do like Silencer, it's a neat concept but I really want another Neutral Chaos role that's more unique? Pirate/Vampire are both not fun roles IMO, and PB feels weird being the only NC roles with an NK wincon. This role might be too much for Ranked but considering it's only in Coven Chaos modes I think it would work well.

[runningwiththepower]

My problem with Elemental stems from the fact that it, by Wave's own admission, functions as a NC PM with a hodgepodge of abilities that don't really feel connected to one another. I have talked a bit about the 'Elemental' role before and think there just isn't enough OOMPH, PIZZAZZ or 'IT' factor that make it good enough to stand on its own 2 feet as a role. I feel like it would be better suited if each of the role's myraid of convoluted abilities be split up, with each one being a new role entirely and then shifting them off into Coven roles or a New 'Elemental' Faction entirely.

In addition, Elemental is a NC role because "This role is a Neutral Chaos role since it can do other things except kill. It is meant to passively destroy town with your attacks and intelligence." but IMO there needs to be something more to a NC role beyond what Elemental currently has; at the present, it just feels more akin to a NK role & I fundamentally don't think the role will add anything novel to the TG in it's present state.

I feel like Silencer is a unique role that will add something very different to the Coven experience both in terms of gameplay and in terms of faction dynamics. Beyond being a mere Blackmailer ripoff for Coven, I have worked hard to add certain mechanics and attributes that both set it apart from its BMer inspiration as well as make it more attuned for a Coven gameplay experience.

While some have criticized the role for limiting Town discussion, I feel like that adds a unique element to the game--and BMer also in a way limits Town discussion just as well. And by still allowing whispers, one can still talk---just at a disadvantage. In addition, being 'Silenced' is an easy condition to fake so surely certain Coven or other Evil roles could fake being 'Silenced' in order to gain favour and mislead Town from their suspisciousness. In addition, Silencer is pretty intutive & easy to understand; compared to the sprawling complicatedness of Elemental. The Necro ability is very Powerful to be fair, but most Necro powerups are
And I kinda like the idea of "We know there is a Silencer in the game......and we know that CL, Medusa and HM are dead......oh god Silencer has the Necro!" Cue paranoia and panic as everyone becomes afraid of who may be Silenced. It would be a really fundamental shift in the game, which I think would be a lot of fun to witness and experience---ESPECIALLY if you are the Necro holding Silencer
And TOS games are more fun when there is a bit more fear amongst the Townies

[WaveAqualei]

The Necro Ability is good but it DOES recommend people to not talk/talk less during the day, which is very crucial towards the Town. I like the idea of an optional Blackmail but IMO it's way too weak since it doesn't really kill; it just makes people silent and they are dealt a Basic attack if they talk. Also, the silence gimmicks aside, this is literally a Poisoner? You choose your target at night and they have a chance of dying the next night (unless they don't speak or they have defence and/or are protected). I think your role is a good idea but I would recommend it have some changes to it! ❤️

With the Elemental, I can see how the Purpose is kinda stupid. It was my *first* time posting on the Forums; by the time I finished everything I kinda just jotted something down lol.

[runningwiththepower]

The Necro would be a detriment to Town but it would defo be interesting to see the various strategies that would be crafted to work around the Silencer's Necro boost and the hyper unique meta that would develop to counter it. It would be fun and interesting and intense--the stakes would be really high and I bet it would be fun to play through---even for the Townies who may or may not lose. Silencer's whole gimmick is deception; it starts off weak and then grows stronger as the game goes on, provided it survives. I think the role is fundamentally different than Poisoner IMO; the similarities between the two fall apart when you look more closely at the two roles. And like I said, it would be easy for people to fake being Silenced. Is Susie Silenced or is just faking it because she's Jester ???? Who knows!

So you acknowledge that Elemental's purpose is stupid? :0

[WaveAqualei]

The Necro would be a detriment to Town but it would defo be interesting to see the various strategies that would be crafted to work around the Silencer's Necro boost and the hyper unique meta that would develop to counter it. It would be fun and interesting and intense--the stakes would be really high and I bet it would be fun to play through---even for the Townies who may or may not lose. Silencer's whole gimmick is deception; it starts off weak and then grows stronger as the game goes on, provided it survives. I think the role is fundamentally different than Poisoner IMO; the similarities between the two fall apart when you look more closely at the two roles. And like I said, it would be easy for people to fake being Silenced. Is Susie Silenced or is just faking it because she's Jester ???? Who knows!

I think it's different than Poisoner but its kills are still delayed by one night as Poisoner's are. Poisoner is unique, but it's more of an erasure role than a killing role. It needs a better chance of actually killing considering the attack for talking is only basic, meaning roles with Defense or BG/Survivor can simply talk and vest and whatnot. Personally I would see this better off as being a Poisoner Buff/Rework; it's a nice idea but it lacks the potential of killing, especially if it were solo.

So you acknowledge that Elemental's purpose is stupid? :0

I meant the way how it was super short was stupid lol. I didn't go into much detail because I was worn out from typing everything atm.

[runningwiththepower]

In my personal opinion, just because it has a delayed kill similar a la to Poisoner does not necessarily mean it is similar to Poisoner. But I disgress; I think having Basic Attack makes the most sense, if it were to have Powerful Attack + the same Necro boost, it would be pretty OP. And even though it may not function as well solo, many Coven roles (HM, Poisoner, PM to a certain extent) can be total flops in a solo setting.

I feel like you are picking apart my role idea without necessarily advocating for your own role idea in turn

[WaveAqualei]

In my personal opinion, just because it has a delayed kill similar a la to Poisoner does not necessarily mean it is similar to Poisoner. But I disgress; I think having Basic Attack makes the most sense, if it were to have Powerful Attack + the same Necro boost, it would be pretty OP. And even though it may not function as well solo, many Coven roles (HM, Poisoner, PM to a certain extent) can be total flops in a solo setting.

I think the Necronomicon boost is a bit too much, it keep the majority of the town from speaking which is not recommended for a role.

I feel like you are picking apart my role idea without necessarily advocating for your own role idea in turn

That's fair! I really like my role because I feel like ToS lacks roles with Rampage, Healing, Purging, Removal of Roles/Wills, and Roleblocking. Currently only 3 roles can Rampage, 3 can heal, 1 can purge, 2 can remove roles/wills, and 4 can roleblock. I could make this an NK role but based on how it can heal and roleblock it seems weird to leave it in NK.
Also I'm not really good at defending something of mine as I'm more of a people-pleaser

[runningwiththepower]

While I think the Townies may be afraid to speak, I think most probably still will because the game requires it. In addition, through the usage of LO & Crusaders, they can wittle it down to who amongst them CAN speak by determing "OK, Sara-Beth the Crusader was on me last night, so I'm safe from the Silencer."
Plus, some will surely risk it for the biscuit and some will determine that they are probably just not a priority for the Silencer and henceforth will talk anyway "I'm Medium and all the dead Townies have DCed. Why would the Silencer get me when there are 2 Invests & a Sherif left?" Plus, the threat of a Silencer on the looser will force people to speak to some extent to root out the Silencer anyway.

"I really like my role because I feel like ToS lacks roles with Rampage, Healing, Purging, Removal of Roles/Wills, and Roleblocking."
And Your solution to that was to create a NC role that combines all 5 of those attributes? It seems a bit too much, especially for new players.

[WaveAqualei]

While I think the Townies may be afraid to speak, I think most probably still will because the game requires it. In addition, through the usage of LO & Crusaders, they can wittle it down to who amongst them CAN speak by determing "OK, Sara-Beth the Crusader was on me last night, so I'm safe from the Silencer."
Plus, some will surely risk it for the biscuit and some will determine that they are probably just not a priority for the Silencer and henceforth will talk anyway "I'm Medium and all the dead Townies have DCed. Why would the Silencer get me when there are 2 Invests & a Sherif left?" Plus, the threat of a Silencer on the looser will force people to speak to some extent to root out the Silencer anyway.

Fair point. However I don't think this role can be killed by Bodyguards/Trappers right? That might be a problem but I'm not sure.

"I really like my role because I feel like ToS lacks roles with Rampage, Healing, Purging, Removal of Roles/Wills, and Roleblocking."
And Your solution to that was to create a NC role that combines all 5 of those attributes? It seems a bit too much, especially for new players.

I mean you do have Potion Master which is one of the most complicated roles in the game. Also it shouldn't be too hard considering it would all be in a UI like Potion Master's potions are.

[runningwiththepower]

SILENCER

VS

ELEMENTAL

is OVER!


Voting is now open from now until Saturday @ Midnight! Cast your vote now!

[runningwiththepower]

/vote Silencer

[Ezradekezra]

/vote Elemental

Silencer seems like it'll cause everyone to only speak in whispers after N3 in order to avoid getting killed

Which I don't think is a very good meta to encourage