Historian (Town Investigative)

[alex1234321]

Note: This role could function as either a Spy or Psychic rework, but I decided to make it its own role since it doesn't perfectly fit the core mechanics of either of those roles.

Role Name:
Historian

Role Alignment:
Town Investigative

Abilities:
Research one player's visiting history each night, seeing how many times they have visited non-Town members over the course of the game.

Attributes:
You may only research each player once per game.
You may not research anyone night one.
If your target visits a non-Town member the night you research them, it will count towards their total.

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Win Conditions:
Same as other Town members.

Additional Information:
If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
If you research a Framer, Arsonist, or Hex Master, you will not be fooled by their frames.
If you research someone other than your intended target (due to Witch or Transporter) you will still be able to research your actual target later in the game but not your intended target.

Investigator results: Lookout/Forger/Witch/Historian

[Cookazoo2]

i like this as a Lookout:Tracker::Spy:Historian idea.

I think it works as a Psychic rework.

[cob709]

This idea is similar to the Spy(Town Investigative) Rework.

I like this idea of this role because unlike Spy, which knows which players the Mafia targeted, this instead knows if their player targets the Mafia, which is the opposite of Spy. It is also well balanced, as it could potentially clear a bunch of players in one night, or create a pool of suspect. This also gives evil players an opportunity to deceive the town, as evil players can claim to visit each other.

If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.

Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?

Overall, /support

[alex1234321]

If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.

Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?

Overall, /support

What if checking a framed player took away the frame? The number of non-Town visits would still probably be inflated for those roles, but some of the framed players might be clear if you visited them before the Framer/HM/Arso. Also other TI roles could check frames (or at least Framer frames) to make them go away.

I don't think making it immune to frames would be a good idea since Framer is already a super weak role. Do you have any other ideas?

[rakso98]

I like the idea, but I'm not completely convinced.

This would be a hard counter towards non-visiting (or mostly non-visiting) fake claims (e.g psychic, medium, survivor, vigilante, veteran) or almost all Executioner fake claims. It's kind of like investigator in it's power to uncover evils, but even better than that. Also if there is a legit sheriff for example and you know they visited a non-town once during the last three nights (but the sheriff found everyone inno), now you know the sheriff probably checked someone evil.

Maybe it's overpowered, or maybe not, but it seems quite powerful at least.

[alex1234321]

I like the idea, but I'm not completely convinced.

This would be a hard counter towards non-visiting (or mostly non-visiting) fake claims (e.g psychic, medium, survivor, vigilante, veteran) or almost all Executioner fake claims. It's kind of like investigator in it's power to uncover evils, but even better than that. Also if there is a legit sheriff for example and you know they visited a non-town once during the last three nights (but the sheriff found everyone inno), now you know the sheriff probably checked someone evil.

Maybe it's overpowered, or maybe not, but it seems quite powerful at least.

Most evil roles aren't going to be visiting that many evil roles. In Ranked, if you're GF/Mafioso you'll only visit an evil role if you attack the Witch or Executioner and if you do that you deserve to be punished. Most RM roles can't target other Mafia members unless a Witch/Transporter intervenes. The only scum role in Ranked that might visit other scum on a semi-frequent basis is Witch, and Witch rarely claims non-visiting roles as it is. So it definitely increases the risk of fakeclaiming non-visiting roles, but it's still doable in most situations. But also if you fakeclaim TI or something you probably should have visited at least one evil at some point by the midgame, so Historian casts doubt on all fakeclaims fairly equally.

In your Sheriff example, all the Historian would find out is that one of three players is evil, which is basically the same amount of power as Psychic. So that isn't OP and it's just one of many ways to gain information as a Historian.

I think it's similar in power to the Sheriff. Sheriff can directly see if someone is evil or not, but there is some doubt due to frames and detection immunity. Historian has higher reward by potentially clearing multiple players at once, but it also has a higher risk of wasting a night. The number of visits a Historian sees won't directly tell them whether or not a player is evil, but it does make certain fakeclaims less plausible. It doesn't restrict claimspace nearly as much as Investigator since it doesn't give any direct information about a player's role.

I would imagine that most of Historian's power would be from clearing multiple players at once. But in order to do that, it would have to figure out who someone visited, which is somewhat difficult to do before the player dies due to the possibility of them being evil. Even then, the player has to use logic and communicate with other players during the day, which is something that should be encouraged as much as possible. If it is still OP, it can be nerfed by making some roles appear innocent unless targeted. Depending on the power of Historian, this can either just be Godfather or can include all detection immune roles.

Edit: I've been thinking about more ways that it can interact with Framer/Arso/HM without immediately outing those roles. I think the best way to do it is to make those roles immune to their own frames. So if a Framer visits one evil role and three Town roles, the Historian would see that the player visited one non-Town role.

[cob709]

If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.

Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?

Overall, /support

What if checking a framed player took away the frame? The number of non-Town visits would still probably be inflated for those roles, but some of the framed players might be clear if you visited them before the Framer/HM/Arso. Also other TI roles could check frames (or at least Framer frames) to make them go away.

I don't think making it immune to frames would be a good idea since Framer is already a super weak role. Do you have any other ideas?

Edit: I've been thinking about more ways that it can interact with Framer/Arso/HM without immediately outing those roles. I think the best way to do it is to make those roles immune to their own frames. So if a Framer visits one evil role and three Town roles, the Historian would see that the player visited one non-Town role.

Seeing as Consigliere is immune to the Framer's and Disguiser's actions, I agree that this solution is sensible.

[alex1234321]

If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.

Though, perhaps there may be a problem with the Historian researching a Framer, Hex Master, or Arsonist, as they'll see that they have visited evil players every night. Is there a way that the information could be less revealing against these roles?

Overall, /support

What if checking a framed player took away the frame? The number of non-Town visits would still probably be inflated for those roles, but some of the framed players might be clear if you visited them before the Framer/HM/Arso. Also other TI roles could check frames (or at least Framer frames) to make them go away.

I don't think making it immune to frames would be a good idea since Framer is already a super weak role. Do you have any other ideas?

Edit: I've been thinking about more ways that it can interact with Framer/Arso/HM without immediately outing those roles. I think the best way to do it is to make those roles immune to their own frames. So if a Framer visits one evil role and three Town roles, the Historian would see that the player visited one non-Town role.

Seeing as Consigliere is immune to the Framer's and Disguiser's actions, I agree that this solution is sensible.

Cool. I added that as additional information.

[rakso98]

I still think that it's way too powerful, and would be by far the most powerful TI in the game. You can usually combine your information with the information from other players and previous results (and scum-reading) to lynch the non-town. For example if you find that an investigator has visited one evil player (out of three players), it's usually quite easy to deduce who the non-town is from the three players. Once you lynch the non-town, you have two confirmed townies. Then the next night you check a transporter and know that they have visited five unique players, one of which is the transporter themselves, one which is the Historian, and one which is a confirmed townie (thanks to the Historians results) from the previous day. Your results come back that the transporter has visited two evil players, and now you know exactly who the evil players are. This is just an example, but do you see what I mean?

I like the general concept though. It also buffs the framer, and I could see this working as a Psychic replacement!

Here's how I would change the role/abilities description (so that getting rid of non-town from a list of someone's visits doesn't automatically confirm the other players as town):

"Research one player's visiting history each night, seeing if they have visited non-Town members over the course of the game."

[alex1234321]

I still think that it's way too powerful, and would be by far the most powerful TI in the game. You can usually combine your information with the information from other players and previous results (and scum-reading) to lynch the non-town. For example if you find that an investigator has visited one evil player (out of three players), it's usually quite easy to deduce who the non-town is from the three players. Once you lynch the non-town, you have two confirmed townies. Then the next night you check a transporter and know that they have visited five unique players, one of which is the transporter themselves, one which is the Historian, and one which is a confirmed townie (thanks to the Historians results) from the previous day. Your results come back that the transporter has visited two evil players, and now you know exactly who the evil players are. This is just an example, but do you see what I mean?

I like the general concept though. It also buffs the framer, and I could see this working as a Psychic replacement!

Here's how I would change the role/abilities description (so that getting rid of non-town from a list of someone's visits doesn't automatically confirm the other players as town):

"Research one player's visiting history each night, seeing if they have visited non-Town members over the course of the game."

That could be a good nerf if it's OP, but I'm still not convinced that it's OP. If you visit scum, the ability is useless. If you visit TP, you're going to force that player to out themself. Evil players can fakeclaim Historian to fish for claims. Even if the Historian picks a TI that already claimed, its results are going to be similar to Psychic results but maybe slightly stronger. I think the biggest strength Historian has compared to Psychic is that it gets a specific number, but it has to be smart in who it targets in order to get meaningful results. The fact that it can only target each person once makes this harder.

My guess is that it isn't OP, but I made a poll to see what others think.

[rakso98]

If you visit scum, the ability is useless.

Not really. For example you can expose Executioners that found people suspicious as "sheriff". Or you can expose a framer claiming tp on jailor for the whole game, but who is found to have visited a non-town at some point (e.g they visited a jester).

If you visit TP, you're going to force that player to out themself. Evil players can fakeclaim Historian to fish for claims.

These two points go for almost any other town investigative role in the game (only sheriff, spy and usually psychic don't out TPs and maybe only Lookout is particularly difficult to fake claim, and some people even fake claim that role successfully).

Even if the Historian picks a TI that already claimed, its results are going to be similar to Psychic results but maybe slightly stronger.

Much stronger IMO, not just slightly. The specificity makes such a big difference.

If it wasn't a specific number then I think Historian would be slightly stronger than psychic on evil vision nights. The results would be otherwise similar to those of a psychic, but you could choose who to check instead of it being completely random like with Psychic (so a skilful player could use this to their benefit). And sometimes you could also clear multiple people as town, which is not possible as Psychic. And sometimes you would expose the player you checked as fake, which is again not possible with psychic.

it has to be smart in who it targets in order to get meaningful results.

Agreed, but that goes for most roles in the game.

Oh well, I guess we can agree to disagree (most people seem to agree with you, so maybe I'm wrong...but I don't know how). Only way to fully find out would be to test the role

[ak521]

Note: This role could function as either a Spy or Psychic rework, but I decided to make it its own role since it doesn't perfectly fit the core mechanics of either of those roles.

Role Name:
Historian

Role Alignment:
Town Investigative

Abilities:
Research one player's visiting history each night, seeing how many times they have visited non-Town members over the course of the game.

Attributes:
You may only research each player once per game.
You may not research anyone night one.
If your target visits a non-Town member the night you research them, it will count towards their total.

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Win Conditions:
Same as other Town members.

Additional Information:
If a player being researched visited a framed player, it will count as a non-Town visit but not delete the frame.
If you research a Framer, Arsonist, or Hex Master, you will not be fooled by their frames.
If you research someone other than your intended target (due to Witch or Transporter) you will still be able to research your actual target later in the game but not your intended target.

What would investigative results be?

[alex1234321]

I added the investigative results. I'm putting it with Lookout since that result already has 2 or 3 scum roles in it with a Town role that's hard to claim. Witch should be able to claim it decently well since it knows the roles of its targets and Forger can claim to have researched someone and then forge them.

[alex1234321]

Historian featured in the test today both as a fakeclaim and a real role. I was pleasantly surprised both by how easy it was to fakeclaim and the fact that it didn't seem OP and actually seemed slightly UP.

The main question that came up about how the role should work is its priority. Should it be able to see a non-town visit the night it researches its target? If so, then should it visit N1? Based on the test results, I think it would be fair to allow a N1 visit and same-night checking. Compared to Sheriff, a N1 Historian check would give better results but would require the Historian to check a visiting Townie and effectively communicate with that player to find who they visited.

Alternatively, the Historian could be buffed to allow multiple checks on one person. This would likely be OP unless they aren't allowed to visit one person in consecutive nights. Still, this could lead to it checking someone every other night to see how many scum there are between a player's last two visits.

I'm going to make a poll to see what the community thinks about this.

[cob709]

Historian featured in the test today both as a fakeclaim and a real role. I was pleasantly surprised both by how easy it was to fakeclaim and the fact that it didn't seem OP and actually seemed slightly UP.

The main question that came up about how the role should work is its priority. Should it be able to see a non-town visit the night it researches its target? If so, then should it visit N1? Based on the test results, I think it would be fair to allow a N1 visit and same-night checking. Compared to Sheriff, a N1 Historian check would give better results but would require the Historian to check a visiting Townie and effectively communicate with that player to find who they visited.

Alternatively, the Historian could be buffed to allow multiple checks on one person. This would likely be OP unless they aren't allowed to visit one person in consecutive nights. Still, this could lead to it checking someone every other night to see how many scum there are between a player's last two visits.

I'm going to make a poll to see what the community thinks about this.

Historian could give incredibly valuable info. However, since it relies on 2 players being truthful, it is possible for the Mafia to disrupt information, making it possible to fakeclaim as Mafia while still providing helpful info for Town.
Allowing it to check one player multiple times would eliminate all those positive balancing mechanics, as the historian would be able to repeatedly check confirmed player and the Mafia wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
If the Historian were to be capable of checking one person multiple times, then it should trade off being able to see the specific amount of non-town visitors. Similar to this.

Regarding the topic of same-night checking and N1 action, I see no reason to not allow it.


Voting options 1 and 2(and 5).

[ak521]

I disagree Historian should check players multiple times but not in consecutive nights -- this is an element that complicates what's already a solid and simple role. It's also not really going to change much.

Otherwise I really think this role has a lot of potential.

I voted for options 1 and 2