Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

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Total votes : 9

Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:42 pm

I took the idea from Cob's Exe overhaul and added my proposed changes to it. Mostly just making a separate thread so I can submit it for the TG.

Role Name: Copycat

Role Alignment: Neutral (Evil)

Abilities:
- Mark a player each day (discussion phase only) and night for copying
- Use a copied role's abilities
- Deal a basic attack to a player (when a killing role has been copied)

Attributes:
- If the marked player dies during the same day or night, you will copy their abilities
- Copying a killing role will replenish the one-shot basic defense shield if it's depleted. Copying a killing role while the basic defense shield is intact will grant a one-shot basic attack.
- You can mark a player and use a copied role's abilities at the same time, but you cannot use the abilities of multiple copied roles at the same time.

Notifications:
- You have decided to mark [player].
- You have instead decided to mark [player].
- The player you marked was lynched! You now have the abilities of a [role].
- (probably some more that I forgot about)

Goal:
See the Town fail.

Win Conditions:
You win if the Town loses.

Special Attributes:
- Basic attack, one-shot shield
- Detection immunity

Investigative Results:
Sheriff - Innocent
Investigator - Your target works with dead bodies. They must be a Medium, Janitor, Retributionist, Necromancer, Trapper, or Copycat.
Consigliere - Your target studies recently-executed corpses to copy their abilities. They must be a Copycat!

Additional Information:
Credits go to Cob for the original idea. Go check out their version of the idea that I linked.

Edit 4/16/2021: Buffed the role
Edit 7/14/2021: Buffed it again
Last edited by Ezradekezra on Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:04 pm

Without any killing abilities, what abilities could this get that would allow it to help evils? Seems to me this has no way of becoming anything like as strong as Witch.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby cob709 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:32 pm

Brilliand wrote:Without any killing abilities, what abilities could this get that would allow it to help evils? Seems to me this has no way of becoming anything like as strong as Witch.

If the witch is lynched, it obtains the abilities of a witch. This also applies to other roles too, such as escort, consort, transporter, etc.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:45 pm

I'm not sure how useful Town abilities would be to a scum role. Killing abilities can be extremely useful while something like Sheriff would be useless if the Copycat can coordinate with the Mafia. Some abilities like Transporter might even be negative utility.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:56 pm

cob709 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Without any killing abilities, what abilities could this get that would allow it to help evils? Seems to me this has no way of becoming anything like as strong as Witch.

If the witch is lynched, it obtains the abilities of a witch. This also applies to other roles too, such as escort, consort, transporter, etc.


Stealing Consort or Witch powers doesn't really count since the Mafia would have been better off with a Consort or Witch spawning from the start (and it might even be negative-utility if the Copycat goes out of their way to get a Witch lynched). Stealing a Transporter... does that actually work? It requires the Copycat to suddenly become double-targeting (triple-targeting if you count its Mark), as well as roleblock-immune and control-immune (neither of which are in its original rolecard). Granted if that does work then the Copycat becomes an evil transporter, which is very powerful (provided it can coordinate with an evil team). But... that dependence on whether there's a Transporter in the game, and on whether the Copycat can get that Transporter lynched (!!!), is a huge amount of swing to wade through for its one chance to be stronger than a Witch.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:15 pm

I just buffed the role

It can now mark someone each day and night (daytime marks are restricted to the discussion phase to avoid last-second marks), and the person's role is copied if they die the same phase
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby kjkszpj1111 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:56 am

ah yeah "copycat" totally an original role name that didn't got used like 500 times
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:49 am

kjkszpj1111 wrote:ah yeah "copycat" totally an original role name that didn't got used like 500 times


the thing is the role, not the name, there are 8000 names that have been very suggested, but most of the times the roles are diffeent
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:07 am

kjkszpj1111 wrote:ah yeah "copycat" totally an original role name that didn't got used like 500 times

And do you have a better name to suggest?
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby cob709 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:37 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
kjkszpj1111 wrote:ah yeah "copycat" totally an original role name that didn't got used like 500 times

And do you have a better name to suggest?

Executioner(Neutral Evil) Rework
or
Mimic (Neutral Evil)
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:29 am

cob709 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
kjkszpj1111 wrote:ah yeah "copycat" totally an original role name that didn't got used like 500 times

And do you have a better name to suggest?

Executioner(Neutral Evil) Rework
or
Mimic (Neutral Evil)


I got a better one, copycat, the current name is fine
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby cob709 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:41 am

Please don't sidetrack this thread. Discussing balancing and mechanics of the role is more important than the name.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:10 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
cob709 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
kjkszpj1111 wrote:ah yeah "copycat" totally an original role name that didn't got used like 500 times

And do you have a better name to suggest?

Executioner(Neutral Evil) Rework
or
Mimic (Neutral Evil)


I got a better one, copycat, the current name is fine


I prefer Mimic. I think the role is different enough from Executioner to be a standalone role and Mimic sounds more sophisticated than Copycat.

Anyway, my issue with the role is that some Town roles are much more useful to scum than others. If I'm Copycat, I would much rather lynch an Escort than a Sheriff. Now that I think about it, more provable Town roles tend to be harder to lynch, so it might not be as much of a problem as it seems. Here are the base non-killing Town roles and how I would compare their confirmability and utility to scum:

Sheriff- hard to confirm, weak to scum
Investigator- moderate to confirm, moderate to scum
Lookout- moderate to confirm, moderate to scum
Spy- hard to confirm, weak to scum
Doctor- hard to confirm, weak to scum
Bodyguard- hard to confirm, weak to scum
Mayor- easy to confirm, strong to scum
Retributionist- depends on roles in the graveyard
Escort- moderate to confirm, moderate to scum
Transporter- easy to confirm, strong to scum
Medium- hard to confirm, weak to scum

There are some minor disconnects between confirmability and utility. Investigators are difficult to lynch unless you accuse them of being a Consigliere or something, but they are even less useful to scum as a Consigliere would be. Escort is similar in terms of confirmability if not slightly harder, but it is almost as useful to scum as Consort (almost because it's not Mafia). Even then, Copycat Escort is weaker than Witch. Transporter is hard to mislynch but is possible by accusing the player of being a Hypno, but it's the only role here besides Mayor that is close to Witch in terms of power.

The bigger issue is that the difference between lynching a "weak" role and lynching a "moderate" role is probably smaller than the difference in utility. It's always tough to get away with a mislynch, but the weak roles are nearly useless to scum while the moderate roles are generally on par with existing or proposed Mafia roles.

The ability to copy nightkills could be useful, but it could also lead to additional discrepancies between the likelihood of someone being killed and the utility to scum. It's hard to say that there would be a meaningful difference in the likelihood of a Sheriff getting killed at night compared to an Investigator, but the Investigator is going to be much more useful to the Copycat than the Sheriff. And if a Copycat gets an unrevealed Mayor early in the game, then scum might as well have won the game. That might encourage Mayors to reveal or at least ask for TP early in the game, which is probably bad for the meta, but that just seems like too much power for one lucky guess. It would be interesting to see this in testing.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Quartzified » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:27 am

What would happen if the copycat copied a mayor and an amnesiac remembered the mayor role the next night? I think the copycat shouldn't be able to copy unique roles because that would fix the amnesiac inconsistency.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Ezradekezra » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:30 am

Quartzified wrote:What would happen if the copycat copied a mayor and an amnesiac remembered the mayor role the next night? I think the copycat shouldn't be able to copy unique roles because that would fix the amnesiac inconsistency.

If a Copycat copied a Mayor, nothing would happen because Mayors don't have any night abilities

Maybe it should get an extra shield if it copies a role with a daytime ability
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Quartzified » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:33 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
Quartzified wrote:What would happen if the copycat copied a mayor and an amnesiac remembered the mayor role the next night? I think the copycat shouldn't be able to copy unique roles because that would fix the amnesiac inconsistency.

If a Copycat copied a Mayor, nothing would happen because Mayors don't have any night abilities

Maybe it should get an extra shield if it copies a role with a daytime ability

In that case, just replace Mayor with Coven Leader.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:50 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
Quartzified wrote:What would happen if the copycat copied a mayor and an amnesiac remembered the mayor role the next night? I think the copycat shouldn't be able to copy unique roles because that would fix the amnesiac inconsistency.

If a Copycat copied a Mayor, nothing would happen because Mayors don't have any night abilities

Maybe it should get an extra shield if it copies a role with a daytime ability


Looks like I misunderstood that because I assumed that Copycat could fake a Mayor reveal in my earlier post. Getting an extra shield wouldn't be super helpful in a Ranked environment, but I can't think of anything better besides letting it choose another role within the subalignment. Same with killing roles although in that case there are no other roles in the subalignment.
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Brilliand » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:51 pm

Quartzified wrote:What would happen if the copycat copied a mayor and an amnesiac remembered the mayor role the next night? I think the copycat shouldn't be able to copy unique roles because that would fix the amnesiac inconsistency.


Copycat doesn't become what it copies. It just gains the night ability. If Copycat copies a unique role that an Amnesiac then becomes, then the result is one player that actually is that unique role (the Amnesiac) and one player that can duplicate that role's night ability (the Copycat). The only non-killing unique role with a night ability is the Retributionist... and I don't even get why the current Retributionist is unique tbh. (But then Retri can use Vigis, so maybe it does count as a killing role?)
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:20 pm

What if you make it able to copy veteran? is not a direct killer so imo it shouldnt cause much trouble
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Re: Copycat - Neutral (Evil)

Postby Ezradekezra » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:00 pm

I buffed this again so it has more powerful interactions with killing roles

Gonna go re-submit it to the TG
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