Mortician (Neutral Chaos) [EDITED]

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Mortician (Neutral Chaos) [EDITED]

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:12 pm

#SAVEMORTICIAN

I worked with CapWarrior2 on this role idea.

Mortician

Role Alignment:
Neutral Chaos

Abilities:
Mark one player each night for burial.

Attributes:
Marks are permanent.
Players will not know that they were marked.
Each time a marked player dies, you bury them, hiding their role and will.
After burying 2 players, you transform into Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse.

Goal:
Successfully bury two players and become Death.

Win Conditions:
Same as Neutral Killing roles.

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is suspicious!
Investigator: Your target could be a Sheriff, Executioner, Werewolf, Poisoner, or Mortician.
Consigliere: Your target buries dead bodies. They must be a Mortician.

Achievements:
Embalmer: Win 1 game as a Mortician (20 MP)
Gravedigger: Win 5 games as a Mortician (20 MP)
Blackmaster: Win 10 games as a Mortician (40 MP)
Undertaker: Win 25 games as a Mortician (100 MP)
Grim Reaper: Become Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse (20 MP)
Cold-Blooded: Kill 5 or more players in one game (40 MP)
Treason: Transform into Death after lynching the Mayor (100 MP)

Additional Information:
Basic defense
Unique role
Burial works just like cleaning (but it says Buried rather than Cleaned), and you see the role and will of the buried target.
There is no notification upon transformation to Death.
Marks do not fade even if the Mortician dies.

Death

Role Alignment:
Neutral Chaos

Abilities:
Each night, your powers increase.

Attributes:
On the night you transform, you will be able to kill one player.
On the following night, you will be able to kill two players.
In all subsequent nights, you will be able to kill and bury two players.
You cannot be roleblocked or controlled.
If you are jailed, you will attack the Jailor.

Goal:
Kill all who would oppose you.

Win Conditions:
Same as Neutral Killing roles.

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is suspicious!
Investigator: Your target could be a Sheriff, Executioner, Werewolf, Poisoner, or Mortician.
Consigliere: Your target is followed by Hades. They must be Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse.

Achievements:
Same as Mortician

Additional Information:
Invincible defense
Powerful attack
Cannot spawn by itself
Last edited by alex1234321 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby CapWarrior2 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:59 pm

It looks so simple compared the talking we did about it.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Couillard » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:08 am

Instead of everyone dying when the revolutionary isnt found, I think that the revolutionary should be rewarded with some kind of rampaging attack after a marked target is lynched. Maybe theme the attack to beheading?
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby CapWarrior2 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:18 am

Couillard wrote:Instead of everyone dying when the revolutionary isnt found, I think that the revolutionary should be rewarded with some kind of rampaging attack after a marked target is lynched. Maybe theme the attack to beheading?


The role is meant to be a version on bomber from FM that can be a bit more win obtainable.
Basically the same im pretty sure apart from the marking and days before everyone dies.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:52 am

Pest cant die in battle...so what happens with pest if that happens
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:08 am

Couillard wrote:Instead of everyone dying when the revolutionary isnt found, I think that the revolutionary should be rewarded with some kind of rampaging attack after a marked target is lynched. Maybe theme the attack to beheading?


I thought about this, but if it was able to steadily kill people over time, it would be able to wait until there is a Mafia majority before marking players. If it manages to correctly pick the mislynch once without getting killed, it would be able to drastically weaken the Mafia that night and would have a much higher chance of winning than it would if it were to start the revolution earlier in the game. By setting the timer to exactly two days regardless of the situation, the Mafia gets four tries to find the Revolutionary (two lynches and two attacks). It is much easier to get away with this early in the game when there are more players. The role is inherently scumsided, which can be fixed by encouraging the Revolutionary to activate its ability earlier. If the revolution starts earlier, players will usually be forced into claiming, and the Revolutionary won't actively be working against Town early on to create a Mafia majority.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Pest cant die in battle...so what happens with pest if that happens

Didn't think about this. Pest and Revolutionary would almost certainly never both spawn in any balanced Ranked rolelist, so this shouldn't be an issue for competitive play. I don't like the idea of creating another attack tier or anything like that, so for All Any Pest shouldn't die. Maybe the Revolutionary can be given unstoppable defense so that it's a draw if a Revolutionary and Pestilence are the only players remaining.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby ringpop03 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:09 pm

This is just a better executioner which can have multiple targets and choose someone they know is sus
/nosupport
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:03 pm

ringpop03 wrote:This is just a better executioner which can have multiple targets and choose someone they know is sus
/nosupport


How is it "better" than Executioner? It is easier to get a target lynched since it can choose its targets, but is also arguably the most important target for Town. So if the Town suspects that you might be a Revolutionary trying to force a mislynch, you will be lynched. While the purpose of the Executioner is to make it easier for Mafia to pull off mislynches, the purpose of the Revolutionary is to punish the Town for mislynching while also punishing the Mafia for picking the wrong person to mislynch (similarly to how TPs punish the Mafia for picking the wrong person to kill at night). In other words, the possibility of an Executioner causes the Town to question who to believe while the possibility of a Revolutionary causes the Mafia to question who to push.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Royee » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:06 am

is that a bomber
Recent Town game - 21A
Recent Mafia game - VFM73
Recent Neutral game - 17B
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:34 am

Royee wrote:is that a bomber

Yeah but with a different way of triggering the fuse. Bombers have to predict who will die and act like TPs in a way since the Mafia doesn't want to kill someone with the fuse. This role acts like a TP for lynches, which wouldn't be balanced for a Town role because that would reward the Town for making mislynches which isn't a good thing. This role punishes the Town for mislynches while also punishing the Mafia for mislynching the wrong person, which is a good thing imo since the Mafia is informed and has so many choices for people they can push.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:11 pm

This looks like a nice setup for a transformation. It could be the larval stage of "Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse", for example. I would much prefer that over the current "everyone simultaneously dies after a countdown" outcome, which seems boring and too game-changing to me.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby OreCreeper » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:23 pm

Brilliand wrote:This looks like a nice setup for a transformation. It could be the larval stage of "Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse", for example. I would much prefer that over the current "everyone simultaneously dies after a countdown" outcome, which seems boring and too game-changing to me.

I mean in that case the Death role would need a lot of buffs to make up for the entire town being alerted to the role's existence two days prior to it spawning.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby lemonader666 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:28 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Royee wrote:is that a bomber

Yeah but with a different way of triggering the fuse. Bombers have to predict who will die and act like TPs in a way since the Mafia doesn't want to kill someone with the fuse. This role acts like a TP for lynches, which wouldn't be balanced for a Town role because that would reward the Town for making mislynches which isn't a good thing. This role punishes the Town for mislynches while also punishing the Mafia for mislynching the wrong person, which is a good thing imo since the Mafia is informed and has so many choices for people they can push.

bombers are horrible
do you not know how much bomber broke the game

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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:36 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
Brilliand wrote:This looks like a nice setup for a transformation. It could be the larval stage of "Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse", for example. I would much prefer that over the current "everyone simultaneously dies after a countdown" outcome, which seems boring and too game-changing to me.

I mean in that case the Death role would need a lot of buffs to make up for the entire town being alerted to the role's existence two days prior to it spawning.


Oh, it should definitely spawn immediately. Replace "2-day countdown then you autowin" with "immediately transform into a role so powerful that it could conceivably win in just 2 days".
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:11 pm

Brilliand wrote:This looks like a nice setup for a transformation. It could be the larval stage of "Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse", for example. I would much prefer that over the current "everyone simultaneously dies after a countdown" outcome, which seems boring and too game-changing to me.


The problem with an ability like Pestilence is that the role's optimal strategy would then be to wait until Mafia has majority. With a countdown, it's harder to win later on, so the role will be incentivized to push for mislynches early enough for there to be enough people but late enough to not be obvious.

lemonader666 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Royee wrote:is that a bomber

Yeah but with a different way of triggering the fuse. Bombers have to predict who will die and act like TPs in a way since the Mafia doesn't want to kill someone with the fuse. This role acts like a TP for lynches, which wouldn't be balanced for a Town role because that would reward the Town for making mislynches which isn't a good thing. This role punishes the Town for mislynches while also punishing the Mafia for mislynching the wrong person, which is a good thing imo since the Mafia is informed and has so many choices for people they can push.

bombers are horrible
do you not know how much bomber broke the game


Yeah I'm aware. Back when I was active Bombers were in episodes and it didn't seem too terrible but I definitely see what you mean. Still, ToS is a very different environment and this role is much more scumsided than Bomber, so even if it somewhat breaks the integrity of the factions its existence benefits scum, so they can quickly end the game after the Revolutionary is eliminated. Also Ik people don't like Bomber since it has a much higher chance of winning if it lights the fuse earlier, but this role has a much easier time activating its ability by siding with the Mafia early on and pushing for a mislynch once scum are close to but not yet at majority.

With its current mechanism of ending the game, this role definitely has many of the same issues as Bomber. However, if its mechanism was more similar to Pestilence, it would be extremely scumsided and would have the best chance of winning by waiting until the end of the game to push a mislynch. In many ways, the problems with these two methods are the opposite of each other, so the best solution would probably be something in between. For example, it could kill a certain fraction of the players each night. However, this could cause the game to swing quite a bit if the Revolutionary gets caught just before winning.

What do you guys think? Is killing a fraction of the Town every night a good solution or should it use some other method?
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:07 pm

alex1234321 wrote:What do you guys think? Is killing a fraction of the Town every night a good solution or should it use some other method?


Here's another method: Give it a kill pattern that scales up the longer it continues to kill, like a Juggernaut but more extreme.

Here's something I thought of immediately when I proposed the transformation idea:

Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse

Attack: Unstoppable
Defense: Invincible
Astral visits

Abilities:
  • While Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse is alive, any player who dies gets a Jester haunt the following night.
  • Anyone who fails to select a target for their haunt, or selects Death as their target, instead haunts a random target.

Notes:

This is just a brainstorm. It has the major problem that the Jester haunts can be used to communicate from the dead chat, possibly outing Death quite quickly.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:26 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:What do you guys think? Is killing a fraction of the Town every night a good solution or should it use some other method?


Here's another method: Give it a kill pattern that scales up the longer it continues to kill, like a Juggernaut but more extreme.

Here's something I thought of immediately when I proposed the transformation idea:

Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse

Attack: Unstoppable
Defense: Invincible
Astral visits

Abilities:
  • While Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse is alive, any player who dies gets a Jester haunt the following night.
  • Anyone who fails to select a target for their haunt, or selects Death as their target, instead haunts a random target.

Notes:

This is just a brainstorm. It has the major problem that the Jester haunts can be used to communicate from the dead chat, possibly outing Death quite quickly.


This actually seems like a cool idea, but it takes the killing almost completely out of Death's control. Making the power increase is a good idea because it limits the impact of the game if the role is caught quickly after transforming while still discouraging the role from transforming too early (more time to find it) or too late (fewer options). What about allowing Death to kill one person the night after transforming and having its kill count double every night? That's basically the same as your idea but faster since there wouldn't be overlapping kills. If that's too drastic, then how about making it kill one more person each night? So one kill the first night, then two, then three and so on.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:39 pm

alex1234321 wrote:What about allowing Death to kill one person the night after transforming and having its kill count double every night? That's basically the same as your idea but faster since there wouldn't be overlapping kills. If that's too drastic, then how about making it kill one more person each night? So one kill the first night, then two, then three and so on.


Those are both reasonable solutions. They do have the minor problem that I don't think the game can currently handle one player picking 3 or more targets in a single night.

Let's see, some math on how this could play out in a game...
  • N1: Mafia kills 1 person (14 players left alive)
  • D2: Revolutionary's target is lynched (13 players left alive)
  • N2: Mafia kills 1 person, Death kills 1 person (11 players left alive)
  • D3: Someone other than Death is lynched (10 players left alive)
  • N3: Mafia kills 1 person, Death kills 2 people (7 players left alive)
  • D4: Someone other than Death is lynched (6 players left alive)
  • N4: Death kills 3 people, Mafia attacks either Death or one of the same people Death killed (3 players left alive)
  • D5: One final lynch decides whether Death wins or loses

Looks to me like "add one target every night" is plenty; increasing that to "doubles every night" wouldn't help much with Death's preferred strategy, and would probably open up strategies like "skip 3 nights and then kill everyone simultaneously".
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:02 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:What about allowing Death to kill one person the night after transforming and having its kill count double every night? That's basically the same as your idea but faster since there wouldn't be overlapping kills. If that's too drastic, then how about making it kill one more person each night? So one kill the first night, then two, then three and so on.


Those are both reasonable solutions. They do have the minor problem that I don't think the game can currently handle one player picking 3 or more targets in a single night.

Let's see, some math on how this could play out in a game...
  • N1: Mafia kills 1 person (14 players left alive)
  • D2: Revolutionary's target is lynched (13 players left alive)
  • N2: Mafia kills 1 person, Death kills 1 person (11 players left alive)
  • D3: Someone other than Death is lynched (10 players left alive)
  • N3: Mafia kills 1 person, Death kills 2 people (7 players left alive)
  • D4: Someone other than Death is lynched (6 players left alive)
  • N4: Death kills 3 people, Mafia attacks either Death or one of the same people Death killed (3 players left alive)
  • D5: One final lynch decides whether Death wins or loses

Looks to me like "add one target every night" is plenty; increasing that to "doubles every night" wouldn't help much with Death's preferred strategy, and would probably open up strategies like "skip 3 nights and then kill everyone simultaneously".


Yeah I think adding one per night is probably better. It's midnight right now so I'm going to wait until tomorrow to change it. If the transformed version is Death, do you have any ideas for a new lore for the original role?
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:27 pm

alex1234321 wrote:If the transformed version is Death, do you have any ideas for a new lore for the original role?


Lore? Did it have lore before?

Oh, you mean the name "Revolutionary". Yeah, that name sounds like it would be the larval form of War, but the Executioner-like transformation condition strikes me as more appropriate for a Death transform.

The name "Executioner" could work really well, but that name is already taken, so... could be "Mortician", perhaps.
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Re: Revolutionary (Neutral Chaos)

Postby CapWarrior2 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:44 pm

I think having Brilliand's Idea of having powers when your target is lynched could be a good idea. But I would like to expand on that and say instead of the doomsday countdown the Revolutionary instead will attack the first target chosen when thet become unmarked. In addition to this, he has a 1 time purge ability that is gained when a second mislynch is successful. When you select to purge, all visits are now basic attacks. This way it isn't as game breaking instantly but can become a threat in a non-instant fashion. As Brilliand said, this wouldn't be as game changing. (Town won't be notified of the lynches that contribute towards the abilities (Or should the second be seen but not the first one?))
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Re: Mortician (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:20 pm

I changed the name of the role and made it transform into death!
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Re: Mortician (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:28 pm

Looks good. Bit of an edge case, though - what happens to an untransformed Mortician when there are no Town? Let's say it's an All Any game, with 4 Mafia, 2 Vampires, 3 Survivors, 2 Serial Killers, a Mortician and 3 Town - and the Mafia/Vamp/SK kill/convert all the Town N1. The current Executioner would either transform into a Jester, or have a Vampire as target; apparently the current version of the Mortician is simply stuck with no ability to win (despite being alive).
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Re: Mortician (Neutral Chaos)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:28 pm

Brilliand wrote:Looks good. Bit of an edge case, though - what happens to an untransformed Mortician when there are no Town? Let's say it's an All Any game, with 4 Mafia, 2 Vampires, 3 Survivors, 2 Serial Killers, a Mortician and 3 Town - and the Mafia/Vamp/SK kill/convert all the Town N1. The current Executioner would either transform into a Jester, or have a Vampire as target; apparently the current version of the Mortician is simply stuck with no ability to win (despite being alive).


I didn't think about this. If a Mortician doesn't get any kills off in Ranked or some other balanced mode before all the Townies die, it probably doesn't deserve to win. But I don't like the idea of making it suicide and automatically lose in a situation like the one that you described. It would make sense to turn it into an Executioner, but that wouldn't work since all the Townies are dead. Maybe make it a Jester since that's what Executioner becomes? Jester is a bad role and its alignment would be messed up, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
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Re: Mortician (Neutral Chaos)

Postby Brilliand » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:07 am

alex1234321 wrote:I didn't think about this. If a Mortician doesn't get any kills off in Ranked or some other balanced mode before all the Townies die, it probably doesn't deserve to win. But I don't like the idea of making it suicide and automatically lose in a situation like the one that you described. It would make sense to turn it into an Executioner, but that wouldn't work since all the Townies are dead. Maybe make it a Jester since that's what Executioner becomes? Jester is a bad role and its alignment would be messed up, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue.


Yeah, Jester doesn't seem like the way to go. I think the resolution to this is to make it easier for the Mortician to transform. So either 1) allow the Mortician to transform based on a wider variety of lynches - say, anyone who isn't part of an informed minority - or 2) give the Mortician its transform if the last Townie dies. Could also go with something in-between, i.e. "if every Town is dead, the Mortician loses half his targeting power, but can transform off of any role being lynched".
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