New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & ideas

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New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & ideas

Postby BasuKun » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:00 am

Hey! So I was surprised this morning to see the suggested arso and LO changes actually going live. When I first saw them a week ago, I thought there were obvious flaws with it and will most likely be tweaked, but it wasn't.

Regardless of whether the NK buffs are too strong or not (only time will tell, and I'm not here to discuss balancing), there are 2 inherent flaws with this patch:

EDIT: Patch doesn't seem to be officially live yet thankfully, however it's weird because some of us got this popup on mobile. Nonetheless my feedback still applies in case they decide to officially push this patch. :)
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Flaw 1 - Now that arso douses anyone visiting them, this means that witch immediately gets doused upon visiting the arso. For a role that wins by siding with evil, now witch can never side with arso again (unless she finds arso by scumreading before being doused). This is extremely flawed design.

My idea: Witch is a magical being. Give her the ability to cleanse herself of dousing using magic, simple as that. Could even be a passive immunity too, but that's balancing talk, I'm here for game design talk. As long as witch can somehow cleanse herself, this issue gets fixed imo.

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Flaw 2 - LO seeing a maximum of 3 visits and "ignoring other visits" adds actual RNG to the game. ToS should be a strategic game, relying on RNG and "hoping you're not part of the 3 people the LO will see" is actually going to become a valid strat but it shouldn't be. I understand they want to nerf the jailor meta (and this won't, btw), but there are better ways to fix it than having luck become a factor.

My idea: When more than 3 people visit the same player, LO should get the following message: "You saw too many people visit this person and didn't have time to note their names". Boom, problem solved. 3 visits and less? You get all of their names. 4 visits and more? You get no names.
RNG is no longer a factor, LO is still nerfed, AND the jailor meta actually gets weakened a bit, because there's a high chance more than 3 people will be on jailor N1 (1 or 2 TP, 1 or 2 LO, 1 escort, 1 spy....). This also adds new strats to mafia, such as sending the whole team on the same target in order to bust out the LO's quota, or sending one of their team (Consort? Disg? Anyone wanting to claim TP?) on Jailor N1 to, again, bust out the LO's quota and prevent him from obtaining results.

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Here you go. Apart from that, I must say I do like the SK buff. It can still be countered by the escort whispering jailor who they are going to rb every night, so if the escort comes out dead with a bloodied will, jailor will immediately know who SK is, but otherwise it's a solid buff. I'm neutral towards WW buff. However the current LO change really puts me off from the game entirely unfortunately.

Thoughts?
Last edited by BasuKun on Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby justthatawesomesb » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:10 pm

When did this buff happen? I can't find the related patch notes.
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby ABadWord » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:17 pm

I fully support the witch idea. Arso is hard enough without having the NK hate you with a passion.

However the LO nerf is done because it confirmed ALL visiting town roles N1. Jailor would come out, all TP, TS, and TI would go on him. And kaboom, most of the town is confirmed, and all TP claims that weren't on Jailor are sus. This nerf is damn good.
Your suggestion is in light of Mafia attacking a role that has 3 visitors already. Question, why would mafia do that? One of those people is most likely a TP or the NK. In which case that attack is a waste. And in this scenario even if its like 2 Sheriffs and a Escort, why would mafia attack if there's a LO on them? Its a 75% chance of getting seen out of the four people.
I do not think the LO idea you've had is needed, even though it is built off of a sound anti RNG mindset.
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:03 am

ABadWord wrote:However the LO nerf is done because it confirmed ALL visiting town roles N1. Jailor would come out, all TP, TS, and TI would go on him. And kaboom, most of the town is confirmed, and all TP claims that weren't on Jailor are sus. This nerf is damn good.


With this nerf, even if the Lookout is flooded with visitors, he can still confirm 3 people. This nerf probably doesn't do enough.
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby ScarfVendetta » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:17 am

BasuKun wrote:Hey! So I was surprised this morning to see the suggested arso and LO changes actually going live. When I first saw them a week ago, I thought there were obvious flaws with it and will most likely be tweaked, but it wasn't.?

The patch hasn't gone live yet. There would be an official announcement if it did.
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby cob709 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:38 am

Witch immunity to arso makes it impossible for arsonist to win against the witch. I disagree.

Lookout change is good, I support it.
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby BasuKun » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:34 am

ScarfVendetta wrote:The patch hasn't gone live yet. There would be an official announcement if it did.

That's so weird coz while you're right that I can't see any announcement, on mobile we did get this popup, and reddit has screenshots of people getting the new "Cautious" ability of SK (not killing a roleblocker). I guess I jumped the gun? But nonetheless my feedback still applies in case they do plan on officially pushing this update everywhere.

cob709 wrote:Witch immunity to arso makes it impossible for arsonist to win against the witch. I disagree.

It feels weird to think arso should ever need to "win against witch" imo. Maybe she only has one cleanse, the same way she only has one defense?
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby MrPandaSenpai » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:51 am

Please just debuff the new Arsonist... Its OP
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Re: New patch (NK buff) has inherent flaws, my thoughts & id

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:44 pm

ABadWord wrote:I fully support the witch idea. Arso is hard enough without having the NK hate you with a passion.

However the LO nerf is done because it confirmed ALL visiting town roles N1. Jailor would come out, all TP, TS, and TI would go on him. And kaboom, most of the town is confirmed, and all TP claims that weren't on Jailor are sus. This nerf is damn good.
Your suggestion is in light of Mafia attacking a role that has 3 visitors already. Question, why would mafia do that? One of those people is most likely a TP or the NK. In which case that attack is a waste. And in this scenario even if its like 2 Sheriffs and a Escort, why would mafia attack if there's a LO on them? Its a 75% chance of getting seen out of the four people.
I do not think the LO idea you've had is needed, even though it is built off of a sound anti RNG mindset.

Only TI on jailor would be LO/Spy and only TS on jailor would be escort and occasionally transporter. Mafia will also be visiting Jailor. I personally don't think LO needs a nerf at all, it's job was to confirm townies and this nerf makes it worse at doing its job.
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