Arsonist buff: Mafia douses

[Brilliand]

It's commonly acknowledged that the Arsonist is underpowered in Ranked (relative to the Serial Killer). More controversially, some players argue that the reason for this isn't that it's too weak in and of itself, but because it has too hard a time working with the Mafia against the Town: the arsonist's douses don't help the Mafia AT ALL in the Town vs. Mafia dynamic, allowing the Town to get a massive advantage and preventing the Arsonist from fulfilling the Neutral Killing subgoal of keeping the Mafia and Town on equal footing. Similarly, the Arsonist lacks the Serial Killer's ability to temporarily side with Town when the Mafia gets a big lead.

I don't have any ideas for allowing the Arsonist to meaningfully work against the Mafia, but here's an idea I had to allow the Arsonist to meaningfully work work with the Mafia against the Town:

The change:

While there is a living Arsonist in the game, any Town-aligned player visited by a member of the Mafia or Coven will become "lightly doused". Light dousing lacks the framing effect of a proper douse, but it does have these effects:

• If the Arsonist ignites, all "lightly doused" players will be ignited along with the properly doused players.
• If the Arsonist visits a "lightly doused" player, that player will be immediately killed in a single-target ignite.

This puts the Arsonist in the position of wanting to actively hunt the Mafia, while his passive ability grants the Mafia bonus kills.

[BasicFourLife]

no

[UzayAltay]

This is just broken .
A better ( and easier ) change would be Arsonist igniting without wasting A night ( in addition dousing ) . For prevent them becoming A better SK , The douse they Did when igniting wont ignite at that ignite . Also their ignitation should be unpreventable ( even by jailor or Witch ) IMO .

[Chedman]

I really like this idea, a significant buff to Arsonist while keeping it different from other NKs.
I honestly think that Arsonist isn't exactly bad now, but still needs a buff. This idea might overbuff the Arsonist, but if it makes it more fun to play, I'm all for it.


Edit: I misunderstood the change, I thought it meant townie VISITING the mafia would make them lightly doused. If mafia could visit then I think it's a bit overpowered.

[vfntvfnbrf]

This is not a good idea and helps Mafia more than Arsonist.
If Mafia can control the douses, this basically turns Arsonist in additional Mafia killing power. Also, if mafia knows who the Arsonist is, they can prevent the ignition without Consort, since Maifa can have one of their members visit the Arsonist every other night and keep Arsonist doused.
I think Arsonist dousing the roleblocker if RB'd once and igniting if RB'd twice would be a good buff, but still, we probably need something more.

[Brilliand]

Also, if mafia knows who the Arsonist is, they can prevent the ignition without Consort, since Maifa can have one of their members visit the Arsonist every other night and keep Arsonist doused.

On this specific point, no the Mafia can't douse the Arsonist. The Mafia's dousing power only works on members of the Town faction.

This is not a good idea and helps Mafia more than Arsonist.
If Mafia can control the douses, this basically turns Arsonist in additional Mafia killing power.

I suspect that the major problem with the Arsonist is the inability to support the Mafia against the Town. This results in the Town having more of an advantage against the Mafia than usual, and also results in the Mafia selling out the Arsonist ASAP, since he's useless to them.

(I'd like to see this hypothesis tested by keeping statistics on the town/mafia/NK winrates divided up by what the NK is; I predict that the Mafia will have a much lower winrate in Arsonist games.)

I kind of doubt that my idea is a good solution to that problem, but your criticism was terrible.

[vfntvfnbrf]

On this specific point, no the Mafia can't douse the Arsonist. The Mafia's dousing power only works on members of the Town faction.

Oh. I missed that this only works with Town. I'm sorry.

I'm convinced that the underlying problem with the Arsonist is that he doesn't help the Mafia to kill townies in the earlygame. This allows the Town to build up an insurmountable advantage, which the arsonist can't overcome once the Mafia has been wiped out. Hence, giving the Mafia additional killing power (against the Town only, and in Arsonist games only) is exactly what the Arsonist needs.

You're right about this being a problem in earlygame. If half of the mafia is dead within first days - this buff is the thing Arsonist needs. But based on my experience, (Again, just things I personally see more often) most of NK wins happen because Mafia is close to having majority and Town considers Mafia a priority target. In those cases NK needs to temporarily side with Town to kill Mafia, but this becomes difficult with multiple visiting Mafia roles alive, since Arsonist will have to douse the entire mafia except for one (assuming that Random Mafia roles are trying to visit every town member alive) and he might not have time for this, since mafia is also killing people.

Still, I agree that Arsonist needs a buff and more killing power, but I think this killing power should be in Arsonist's control.

[Brilliand]

But based on my experience, (Again, just things I personally see more often) most of NK wins happen because Mafia is close to having majority and Town considers Mafia a priority target. In those cases NK needs to temporarily side with Town to kill Mafia, but this becomes difficult with multiple visiting Mafia roles alive, since Arsonist will have to douse the entire mafia except for one (assuming that Random Mafia roles are trying to visit every town member alive) and he might not have time for this, since mafia is also killing people.

With a Spy alive, this strategy could fuck over the Mafia pretty badly.

But yeah, that is a problem that I didn't provide a solution for. The Arsonist needs to be able to help the Town too.