Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

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Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:18 pm

This is mainly experimental as I want Investigator to have major changes. It's hard to try and make the role have the same purpose and make it simple, but this is the best I could come up with.

Investigator - Town (Investigative)

Summary: You are a private eye who secretly gathers information.

Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 4
Unique: No

Abilities:
    - You may Investigate a player at night, learning a clue to their role type.
Attributes:
    - Investigating someone will reveal two set role types, one of which will be theirs.
    - Investigating someone an additional time will reveal their exact role type.
Investigative Results:
    Sheriff: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
    Investigator: Your target collects knowledge of others. They must be an Investigative role!
    Consigliere: Your target gathers information about people. They must be an Investigator.

Goal: Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Victory Conditions: Same as other Town.

Notifications:
    "You have decided to investigate (player) tonight."
    "Your target is a Disruptive or Special role!"
    "Your target is an Investigative or a Manipulative role!"
    "Your target is a Killing or Protective role!"
    "Your target takes charge of others. They must be a Disruptive role!"
    "Your target collects knowledge of others. They must be an Investigative role!"
    "Your target steals the vitality of others. They must be a Killing role!"
    "Your target influences the ideas of others. They must be a Manipulative role!"
    "Your target assists the actions of others. They must be a Protective role!"
    "Your target acts unusual compared to others. They must be a Special role!"

Mechanics:
    - When investigating a player, a set pair of two role types will be given. The pairs are:
      Disruptive/Special
      Investigative/Manipulative
      Killing/Protective
    - When investigating a player you previously investigated, you will learn whatever role type they would appear as.
    - A Framed or Hexed player appear to be a Manipulative role.
    - A Doused player will appear to be a Killing role.
    - A Disguised player will appear to be the role type of the role they were Disguised as.
    - A Coven member with the Necronomicon will appear to be a Killing role.
    - If a player had multiple status effects, the priority list from highest to lowest would be:
      Frames/Hexes > Douses > Disguises > Regular Role Results
    - The list below is a complete list of the Investigator Results for each role. This would be accessible in the game for anyone to see easily (not sure how, but it should be anyway).
    Investigator Results:
    Spoiler:
      - Disruptive: Escort, Transporter, Consort, Hypnotist, Poisoner, Jester, Pirate
      - Investigative: All Town Investigatives, Consigliere, Coven Leader, Witch
      - Killing: All Town Killings, Ambusher, Godfather, all Neutral Killings, Pestilence
      - Manipulative: Forger, Framer, Hex Master, Medusa, Executioner, Vampire
      - Protective: All Town Protectives, Disguiser, Mafioso, Potion Master, Guardian Angel, Survivor
      - Special: Mayor, Medium, Retributionist, Blackmailer, Janitor, Necromancer, Amnesiac, Plaguebearer
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Poryg » Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:53 am

The idea is fine. However, I'd shuffle a couple of roles.

Bmer is primarily an investigative role and shouldn't be in special. He threatens to reveal your secrets, but needs to find them out first. And his ability to read whispers is always active, while his blackmailing is optional. Plus, the claiming space inside the aggressive/special spot is bogus. Especially for someone who can gather so much info from whispers and can use that info to make much stronger claims.

Survivor should move from defensive to special. He doesn't assist anyone, which doesn't fulfill the defensive definition. On top of that, the killing/defensive field contains all killers, making survivor claims impossible to confirm.
The claim space in special, on the other hand, could benefit from having a survivor both for evils having extra claim in all any and for survivor being confirmable.

I'm also thinking about moving forger to special (forger and janitor benefit from being able to claim medium more than from being able to claim sheriff) and jester to manipulative as his attack is only a secondary concern. His primary concern is to manipulate town into hanging him.

Last but not least, can we rename the Aggressive part? It will get confused with Killing. Maybe interactive could be better.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:34 am

Poryg wrote:The idea is fine. However, I'd shuffle a couple of roles.

I'm open to moving some of them around as long as each type has roughly enough evils.
Bmer is primarily an investigative role and shouldn't be in special. He threatens to reveal your secrets, but needs to find them out first. And his ability to read whispers is always active, while his blackmailing is optional. Plus, the claiming space inside the aggressive/special spot is bogus. Especially for someone who can gather so much info from whispers and can use that info to make much stronger claims.

The "Reading Whispers" is more of a side attribute to the role. While it seems to be more purposeful with better ranking players, the "Blackmail" ability is what makes it Special, since it is a unique ability that no one else shares. I understand why it would make sense in Investigative, but roles shouldn't have to claim in their current results. I do want more Town roles in the Aggressive/Special slots but this was the best I could work with since we don't have enough of them to go around.
Survivor should move from defensive to special. He doesn't assist anyone, which doesn't fulfill the defensive definition. On top of that, the killing/defensive field contains all killers, making survivor claims impossible to confirm.

Survivor is more defensive about themselves rather than other people. The "assisting anyone" is more flavor text that I decided to give the notifications, but that can be easily changed. I don't mind Survivor being harder to confirm since it's a pretty common fake claim for roles with Defense (most of those being Neutral Killings).
The claim space in special, on the other hand, could benefit from having a survivor both for evils having extra claim in all any and for survivor being confirmable.

I do understand the reasoning for this, but Special lacks the amount of claimable roles (mainly because the lack of Town roles in the game). Amnesiac is already in the Special result, which makes it a somewhat decent spot to be in.
I'm also thinking about moving forger to special (forger and janitor benefit from being able to claim medium more than from being able to claim sheriff) and jester to manipulative as his attack is only a secondary concern. His primary concern is to manipulate town into hanging him.

I don't know how I feel about Forger being in Special since it's meant to manipulate Town with claimspace and mislynching. I thought about Jester being in Manipulative but Aggressive needs more Classic Ranked evils there.
Last but not least, can we rename the Aggressive part? It will get confused with Killing. Maybe interactive could be better.

I actually had a lot of problems with trying to name the Aggressive part. I'm not sure about Interactive but I'll try to think of something.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:07 am

I can taste the influence from Throne of Lies's Princess role

The thing is, that role is built around the sub-types that already exist in the game. This role basically makes two different role type systems in the same game, which is a pain in the ass to deal with.
If you want to turn Investigator into Princess, it would be better to work with the existing role types/subtypes rather than making a second role typing system just for Investigator.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:27 am

MysticMismagius wrote:I can taste the influence from Throne of Lies's Princess role

The thing is, that role is built around the sub-types that already exist in the game. This role basically makes two different role type systems in the same game, which is a pain in the ass to deal with.
If you want to turn Investigator into Princess, it would be better to work with the existing role types/subtypes rather than making a second role typing system just for Investigator.

I guess I could rename Manipulative to Deceptive and Defensive to Protective, but I'm not sure how to rename Aggressive. Do you have any ideas?
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:01 pm

Aggresive could be confused with killing, I think it should be changed to distruptive or something like that

Also some roles should be changed, both to fit the theme and for balance

Killing has no coven roles, so I think poisoner should be moved to killing and CL should be moved to aggresive/distruptive/whatever
Last edited by syjfwbaobfwl on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:04 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Aggresive could be confused with killing, I think it should be changed to distruptive or something like that

Also some roles should be changed, both to fit the theme and for balance

Killing has no coven roles, so I think poisoner should be moved to killing and CL should be moved to aggresive/distruptive/whatevee

Disruptive could work for Aggressive, sure.
Killing is fine since Coven roles with the Necronomicon appear as Killing.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:35 pm

The biggest issue with Investigator-As-Princess is that the subtypes are made a specific way so that they can be used in role-list building
In order to make Investigator-As-Princess work and not make it confusing, is to rework the subtypes so that all subtypes have Town, Mafia, and Neutral roles in them

However, the subtypes are also used in role list building, so any subtype rework also inherently fucks with role lists
I'm having trouble coming up with a subtype rework that makes Investigator-As-Princess work, but doesn't also make it hell to write role lists
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:47 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:I can taste the influence from Throne of Lies's Princess role

The thing is, that role is built around the sub-types that already exist in the game. This role basically makes two different role type systems in the same game, which is a pain in the ass to deal with.
If you want to turn Investigator into Princess, it would be better to work with the existing role types/subtypes rather than making a second role typing system just for Investigator.

Exactly what i was thinking

This rework seems kinda alright, might be a little bit too weak now, but we know the TOS devs actually dislike investigator results as they stand and this could fit as a rework, personally I think investigator isn't even that problematic in current TOS, but i would make adjustments to it down the line.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:43 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:I can taste the influence from Throne of Lies's Princess role

The thing is, that role is built around the sub-types that already exist in the game. This role basically makes two different role type systems in the same game, which is a pain in the ass to deal with.
If you want to turn Investigator into Princess, it would be better to work with the existing role types/subtypes rather than making a second role typing system just for Investigator.

Exactly what i was thinking

This rework seems kinda alright, might be a little bit too weak now, but we know the TOS devs actually dislike investigator results as they stand and this could fit as a rework, personally I think investigator isn't even that problematic in current TOS, but i would make adjustments to it down the line.

I agree it's not problematic but it doesn't really work in a game that wants to be updated unfortunately. I don't really have enough roles to have each role type hold a healthy balance but I think it's okay.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Poryg » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:19 am

I understand why it would make sense in Investigative, but roles shouldn't have to claim in their current results.

It's not about not having to claim inside invest results. It's that by not going for optimal invest results, you're not solving the invest's problem.
Invest confirms evils very easily as roles that claim outside of invest's claim space will contradict invest's will. That's why we see BMer claiming spy, Janitor claiming medium and Forger claiming whatever as LO is difficult to fake.

I don't mind Survivor being harder to confirm since it's a pretty common fake claim for roles with Defense (most of those being Neutral Killings).

That's actually a terrible argument.
Had he been a townie, okay. But survivor is the most neutral role in the game. Nobody cares if he's alive. Hence survivor needs to be reasonably easy to confirm exactly because it's an easy fake claim. If he's hard to confirm, it's much easier to just kill him than waste time trying to confirm him. Hence he'll be forced to fake claim while he doesn't even have good claim space. On top of that, it takes evils 1 invest to confirm a survivor.

I thought about Jester being in Manipulative but Aggressive needs more Classic Ranked evils there.

It actually doesn't. The aggressive+special field contains roles that are for the most part so easy to confirm they don't require two invests.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:24 pm

I understand why it would make sense in Investigative, but roles shouldn't have to claim in their current results.

It's not about not having to claim inside invest results. It's that by not going for optimal invest results, you're not solving the invest's problem.
Invest confirms evils very easily as roles that claim outside of invest's claim space will contradict invest's will. That's why we see BMer claiming spy, Janitor claiming medium and Forger claiming whatever as LO is difficult to fake.

I sorted the roles based on their abilities, not so much their best claims. I did put Mafioso in Protective but...
I don't mind Survivor being harder to confirm since it's a pretty common fake claim for roles with Defense (most of those being Neutral Killings).

That's actually a terrible argument. Had he been a townie, okay. But survivor is the most neutral role in the game. Nobody cares if he's alive. Hence survivor needs to be reasonably easy to confirm exactly because it's an easy fake claim. If he's hard to confirm, it's much easier to just kill him than waste time trying to confirm him. Hence he'll be forced to fake claim while he doesn't even have good claim space. On top of that, it takes evils 1 invest to confirm a survivor.

That is not how it works... just because Survivor is in a very safe Investigator Result in Classic now doesn't mean I want them there in one now. Disregarding that it still makes sense to be in Protective since it has vests and no other ability.
I thought about Jester being in Manipulative but Aggressive needs more Classic Ranked evils there.

It actually doesn't. The aggressive+special field contains roles that are for the most part so easy to confirm they don't require two invests.

In Ranked, it doesn't have that many evils, especially with most of the Town Support roles being easy to confirm their existence.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Poryg » Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:30 pm

The more evils it has, the more evils will be easy to find. It has to do with the easy confirmability of townies, not with the amount of evils.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:43 pm

Poryg wrote:The more evils it has, the more evils will be easy to find. It has to do with the easy confirmability of townies, not with the amount of evils.

It still has to do with the amount of evils though, since the probability of your target being a Town role would be higher.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:43 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:I can taste the influence from Throne of Lies's Princess role

The thing is, that role is built around the sub-types that already exist in the game. This role basically makes two different role type systems in the same game, which is a pain in the ass to deal with.
If you want to turn Investigator into Princess, it would be better to work with the existing role types/subtypes rather than making a second role typing system just for Investigator.

Exactly what i was thinking

This rework seems kinda alright, might be a little bit too weak now, but we know the TOS devs actually dislike investigator results as they stand and this could fit as a rework, personally I think investigator isn't even that problematic in current TOS, but i would make adjustments to it down the line.

I agree it's not problematic but it doesn't really work in a game that wants to be updated unfortunately. I don't really have enough roles to have each role type hold a healthy balance but I think it's okay.

I think it does work in the game, I'd consider spy as something fundamentally broken, while investigator can be really restricting to a lot of players. claim space, which isn't bad but theirs also issues with how its not really easy to balance the results itself.

Even my suggested claim lists ive made before weren't perfect.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Poryg » Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:23 am

It still has to do with the amount of evils though, since the probability of your target being a Town role would be higher.


Probability doesn't bear any relevance here. The only two fake claimable roles from aggressive/special branch are medium and retri. Both in special. Consort and hypno, both in aggressive, are the only two roles that have claims in aggressive - consort has escort and hypno has trans. Ergo, investigating any of these twice makes no sense, because you won't get any useful information out of the second investigation.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:20 am

Poryg wrote:
It still has to do with the amount of evils though, since the probability of your target being a Town role would be higher.


Probability doesn't bear any relevance here. The only two fake claimable roles from aggressive/special branch are medium and retri. Both in special. Consort and hypno, both in aggressive, are the only two roles that have claims in aggressive - consort has escort and hypno has trans. Ergo, investigating any of these twice makes no sense, because you won't get any useful information out of the second investigation.

Escort and Transporter can both be difficult to claim but can be pulled off well if done right (things that I'm pretty good at fake claiming).
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:22 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
Poryg wrote:
It still has to do with the amount of evils though, since the probability of your target being a Town role would be higher.


Probability doesn't bear any relevance here. The only two fake claimable roles from aggressive/special branch are medium and retri. Both in special. Consort and hypno, both in aggressive, are the only two roles that have claims in aggressive - consort has escort and hypno has trans. Ergo, investigating any of these twice makes no sense, because you won't get any useful information out of the second investigation.

Escort and Transporter can both be difficult to claim but can be pulled off well if done right (things that I'm pretty good at fake claiming).

I think the issue is where you force roles like Witch, which is already harder then mafia to win as, with Lookout being the only viable fake claim, Consorts get screwed over a lot by spies generally, So investigator results are generally just poorly made, along with cleaning up roles like spy and editing the results it would be fine, But that being said your change idea is actually fairly solid aswell.
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Re: Investigator Overhaul (Town Investigative)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:28 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
Poryg wrote:
It still has to do with the amount of evils though, since the probability of your target being a Town role would be higher.


Probability doesn't bear any relevance here. The only two fake claimable roles from aggressive/special branch are medium and retri. Both in special. Consort and hypno, both in aggressive, are the only two roles that have claims in aggressive - consort has escort and hypno has trans. Ergo, investigating any of these twice makes no sense, because you won't get any useful information out of the second investigation.

Escort and Transporter can both be difficult to claim but can be pulled off well if done right (things that I'm pretty good at fake claiming).

I think the issue is where you force roles like Witch, which is already harder then mafia to win as, with Lookout being the only viable fake claim, Consorts get screwed over a lot by spies generally, So investigator results are generally just poorly made, along with cleaning up roles like spy and editing the results it would be fine, But that being said your change idea is actually fairly solid aswell.

Thanks. It does narrow down the claimspace for some roles but they're always allowed to claim other roles.
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