Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:14 am

Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.

Kingsmaker roles have no place in a balanced ranked mode. Which survivor and most neutral benigns dont have a place in, Witch generally isn't a kingsmaker, while EXE/JESTER are functionally neutral benign roles especially jester

Witch isn't a kings maker, NK's create kings makers, All Nks need late game potential to wipe the town (Such as arsonist ignite), this way we have way Less opportunity for kingmakers
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:28 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:What does this even do? This just makes it more omniscient and random. I think my edits are fine.

This rework of the Executioner lacks the thrill and self-reward of the current Executioner. It no longer feels like you have this vendetta against a single person that's beyond lifespans, using your silver tongue and skills of deception to get them lynched on the gallows and that is your only goal. The ability to change the target sounds much less interesting and engaging, almost like a crutch. Additionally you have to get the town's downfall but once you've gotten anyone lynched, everyone will just ignore you indefinitely. Although it appears to be more balanced in the perspective of ranked, it appears to be much less boring to play. To counterbalance the removal of interrogation and manual choosing of a target which I feel are more problematic, you have a random town role to support your own findings or to gain trust from the town, and you gain double the rewards from successfully lynching your target. This now makes it so you can constantly upkeep the action, and additionally it reboots the old idea of obsessed maniacal with a grudge against a single person to also have a pinch of a 'Game-throwing' townie.

Fun is entirely subjective and something that you shouldn't balance around. RNG is also something you shouldn't balance around. Neither of your changes would fix core problems of base Executioner.

??? "Fun is entirely subjective" bruh whats the point of playing a game if it isn't fun. Why torment myself with pointless shouting, bickering, and mindgames, if the end result isn't going to be as fulfilling or rewarding as the effort I put in, if not more.
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Mafioso Removal + Godfather Rework
Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:35 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.

Kingsmaker roles have no place in a balanced ranked mode. Which survivor and most neutral benigns dont have a place in, Witch generally isn't a kingsmaker, while EXE/JESTER are functionally neutral benign roles especially jester

Witch isn't a kings maker, NK's create kings makers, All Nks need late game potential to wipe the town (Such as arsonist ignite), this way we have way Less opportunity for kingmakers

All neutral roles that aren't currently locked onto a target to protect/kill are kingmakers by design, even the witch. Even if an NK does have late game potential to wipe town, the Witch can just control them to not do that. Even then, roles (and thus role ideas) akin to the witch in design also have similar problematics such as needing to be alive to win, so they have no penalty doing certain actions such as outing an NK's or Mafia's name just as they get the guilty verdict and are about to be lynched. If you really want Kingmakers to not exist in a ranked setting; remove any third-parties all together, which in my opinion makes the setting much less interesting for repeated playthroughs/lobbies.
yeah, i go by qry on discord; shut up!
18 yr old hottie who got a computer from uni and will abuse it to hearts content hehehehe!


treasured ideas:
Gunslinger
Mafioso Removal + Godfather Rework
Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
Survivor Change
Saboteur
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Executioner
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:50 am

Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.

Executioner, Jester, and Survivor are all kingmakers, yes. That is an issue. Witch is only a kingmaker with evils. Unlike the other three roles mentioned, Witch is NOT a kingmaker with Town/Evils. Kingmakers will always be in Ranked if Executioner and Jester are kept the way they are, and if the Neutral Killing slot isn't removed.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:51 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Yeah. kingmaking should be reduced as much as posible, maybe even remove it (but I dont think that can happen without adding overly complicated mechanics)

You can't remove Kingmaking in Ranked unless you change Executioner/Jester and replace the Neutral Killing with a 10th Town.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:01 am

scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:What does this even do? This just makes it more omniscient and random. I think my edits are fine.

This rework of the Executioner lacks the thrill and self-reward of the current Executioner. It no longer feels like you have this vendetta against a single person that's beyond lifespans, using your silver tongue and skills of deception to get them lynched on the gallows and that is your only goal. The ability to change the target sounds much less interesting and engaging, almost like a crutch. Additionally you have to get the town's downfall but once you've gotten anyone lynched, everyone will just ignore you indefinitely. Although it appears to be more balanced in the perspective of ranked, it appears to be much less boring to play. To counterbalance the removal of interrogation and manual choosing of a target which I feel are more problematic, you have a random town role to support your own findings or to gain trust from the town, and you gain double the rewards from successfully lynching your target. This now makes it so you can constantly upkeep the action, and additionally it reboots the old idea of obsessed maniacal with a grudge against a single person to also have a pinch of a 'Game-throwing' townie.

Fun is entirely subjective and something that you shouldn't balance around. RNG is also something you shouldn't balance around. Neither of your changes would fix core problems of base Executioner.

??? "Fun is entirely subjective" bruh whats the point of playing a game if it isn't fun. Why torment myself with pointless shouting, bickering, and mindgames, if the end result isn't going to be as fulfilling or rewarding as the effort I put in, if not more.

Because the game is meant to be fun. The roles are meant to be balanced (Neutral Chaos concepts should be fun but balance is also something to think over). If you're relying on certain roles to have the game be fun, then the game simply isn't fun for you. If you only enjoy the game because of a handful of roles, then you don't find the game fun...you find the social interaction fun.
Personally I enjoy most roles because I find the game fun. There are a few that I don't enjoy because of how problematic they are, Executioner being one of them.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:49 am

scarfves wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.

Kingsmaker roles have no place in a balanced ranked mode. Which survivor and most neutral benigns dont have a place in, Witch generally isn't a kingsmaker, while EXE/JESTER are functionally neutral benign roles especially jester

Witch isn't a kings maker, NK's create kings makers, All Nks need late game potential to wipe the town (Such as arsonist ignite), this way we have way Less opportunity for kingmakers

All neutral roles that aren't currently locked onto a target to protect/kill are kingmakers by design, even the witch. Even if an NK does have late game potential to wipe town, the Witch can just control them to not do that. Even then, roles (and thus role ideas) akin to the witch in design also have similar problematics such as needing to be alive to win, so they have no penalty doing certain actions such as outing an NK's or Mafia's name just as they get the guilty verdict and are about to be lynched. If you really want Kingmakers to not exist in a ranked setting; remove any third-parties all together, which in my opinion makes the setting much less interesting for repeated playthroughs/lobbies.


Even if we want to argue about kingsmakers, which I personally don't have a issue with... outside ranked, I think obviously we should try and reduce the amount of kingsmakers scenarios because they remove a lot of skill towards the game, In general witch has way less of chance to create kings makers, they also cannot give town the win; Granted I think you made a good point about witches "survivor" wincon because I actually agree that witch in general can screw over evils when they die and it's not throwing at all because they've already lost the game. But the solutions I've seen doesn't seem to be perfect. Maybe if the Witch dies they would be able to select a player that if their faction wins, the witch also wins? if they select town they'd lose still or something to make it in their best intrest to not out scum.

I was in support of no NK, in ranked, still sort of am but I doubt the public and casual player base would agree with no NK, so ranked should have nks with late game kills (such as my NK rework thread: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=122260) I think at least having NK's with late game potential at least causes much less kings makers to happen.

Jester/exe being neutral evil makes no sense I think fixing them to actually work with evils (espically jester) is a good direction, I also dont think it's fun to have a randomly generated reverse guardian angel after you.

Personally with ranked I hope it's took in a balanced direction, if not please just add neutral benign and more any, the current ranked lineup is boring and unbalanced anyway adding back the spice of season 1 ranked would at least be fun
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:21 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
scarfves wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.

Kingsmaker roles have no place in a balanced ranked mode. Which survivor and most neutral benigns dont have a place in, Witch generally isn't a kingsmaker, while EXE/JESTER are functionally neutral benign roles especially jester

Witch isn't a kings maker, NK's create kings makers, All Nks need late game potential to wipe the town (Such as arsonist ignite), this way we have way Less opportunity for kingmakers

All neutral roles that aren't currently locked onto a target to protect/kill are kingmakers by design, even the witch. Even if an NK does have late game potential to wipe town, the Witch can just control them to not do that. Even then, roles (and thus role ideas) akin to the witch in design also have similar problematics such as needing to be alive to win, so they have no penalty doing certain actions such as outing an NK's or Mafia's name just as they get the guilty verdict and are about to be lynched. If you really want Kingmakers to not exist in a ranked setting; remove any third-parties all together, which in my opinion makes the setting much less interesting for repeated playthroughs/lobbies.


Even if we want to argue about kingsmakers, which I personally don't have a issue with... outside ranked, I think obviously we should try and reduce the amount of kingsmakers scenarios because they remove a lot of skill towards the game, In general witch has way less of chance to create kings makers, they also cannot give town the win; Granted I think you made a good point about witches "survivor" wincon because I actually agree that witch in general can screw over evils when they die and it's not throwing at all because they've already lost the game. But the solutions I've seen doesn't seem to be perfect. Maybe if the Witch dies they would be able to select a player that if their faction wins, the witch also wins? if they select town they'd lose still or something to make it in their best intrest to not out scum.

I was in support of no NK, in ranked, still sort of am but I doubt the public and casual player base would agree with no NK, so ranked should have nks with late game kills (such as my NK rework thread: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=122260) I think at least having NK's with late game potential at least causes much less kings makers to happen.

Jester/exe being neutral evil makes no sense I think fixing them to actually work with evils (espically jester) is a good direction, I also dont think it's fun to have a randomly generated reverse guardian angel after you.

Personally with ranked I hope it's took in a balanced direction, if not please just add neutral benign and more any, the current ranked lineup is boring and unbalanced anyway adding back the spice of season 1 ranked would at least be fun

Yeah I agree. There's not much to reply with since you pretty much said all of what I would've said. :ThinkEyes:
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:53 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
scarfves wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Poryg wrote:Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.

Kingsmaker roles have no place in a balanced ranked mode. Which survivor and most neutral benigns dont have a place in, Witch generally isn't a kingsmaker, while EXE/JESTER are functionally neutral benign roles especially jester

Witch isn't a kings maker, NK's create kings makers, All Nks need late game potential to wipe the town (Such as arsonist ignite), this way we have way Less opportunity for kingmakers

All neutral roles that aren't currently locked onto a target to protect/kill are kingmakers by design, even the witch. Even if an NK does have late game potential to wipe town, the Witch can just control them to not do that. Even then, roles (and thus role ideas) akin to the witch in design also have similar problematics such as needing to be alive to win, so they have no penalty doing certain actions such as outing an NK's or Mafia's name just as they get the guilty verdict and are about to be lynched. If you really want Kingmakers to not exist in a ranked setting; remove any third-parties all together, which in my opinion makes the setting much less interesting for repeated playthroughs/lobbies.


Even if we want to argue about kingsmakers, which I personally don't have a issue with... outside ranked, I think obviously we should try and reduce the amount of kingsmakers scenarios because they remove a lot of skill towards the game, In general witch has way less of chance to create kings makers, they also cannot give town the win; Granted I think you made a good point about witches "survivor" wincon because I actually agree that witch in general can screw over evils when they die and it's not throwing at all because they've already lost the game. But the solutions I've seen doesn't seem to be perfect. Maybe if the Witch dies they would be able to select a player that if their faction wins, the witch also wins? if they select town they'd lose still or something to make it in their best intrest to not out scum.

I was in support of no NK, in ranked, still sort of am but I doubt the public and casual player base would agree with no NK, so ranked should have nks with late game kills (such as my NK rework thread: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=122260) I think at least having NK's with late game potential at least causes much less kings makers to happen.

Jester/exe being neutral evil makes no sense I think fixing them to actually work with evils (espically jester) is a good direction, I also dont think it's fun to have a randomly generated reverse guardian angel after you.

Personally with ranked I hope it's took in a balanced direction, if not please just add neutral benign and more any, the current ranked lineup is boring and unbalanced anyway adding back the spice of season 1 ranked would at least be fun


I mean maybe the solution to this whole debacle is just removing kingmaking altogether - literally calling in the trophy when a (1 Non-Evil-Faction or Non-Neutral-Killing vs. 1 Evil-Faction vs. 1 Neutral-Killing) occurs with an automatic stalemate detector. I think trying to constantly twist existing identities or gameplay functions rather than addressing the main problem plaguing a competitive mode just concatenates into a huge mess. Take Overwatch or Valorant as an example; those games tried to make their new heroes/characters address the problem of their respective games (Shields and GOATS in Overwatch and Camping in Valorant) rather than owning up and just addressing the problem as a whole individually - like unironically, Brigitte just flat out killed 90% of people's hopes for Overwatch's balancing and competitive scene.

How many times are we going to make these role attributes, goals, and clauses against Kingmaker that result in Schrodinger's balancing. How many unique, intriguing, and fascinating moments of gameplay will be sacrificed by virtue of heavily modifying roles rather than just fixing Kingmaker at their root.
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treasured ideas:
Gunslinger
Mafioso Removal + Godfather Rework
Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
Survivor Change
Saboteur
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:39 pm

How many times are we going to make these role attributes, goals, and clauses against Kingmaker that result in Schrodinger's balancing. How many unique, intriguing, and fascinating moments of gameplay will be sacrificed by virtue of heavily modifying roles rather than just fixing Kingmaker at their root.


Modifying roles is necessary generally, I'm sure some people found being revived "Intriguing" but automatically confirming yourself and having another confirmed in the revived slot, was Absurdly strong to the point where people lumped old retri with old Jailor as Town Powers. Old Spy (as much as i hate current spy still) was "unique" and interesting with it being automatically confirmed and basically cutting out any evils talking, Vampires sure are fun and unique and "Interesting" Do you see anyone advocate for it in ranked? we cannot only balance around what's Interesting, If we want to be interest go back to season 1 ranked, me and a lot of others preferred it despite it being way less balanced.

I will concede that Exe being outside of ranked is pretty much fine, Objectively I really dislike a role where it's goal is to entirely screw over one player still.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:52 pm

Soulshade55r wrote: will concede that Exe being outside of ranked is pretty much fine, Objectively I really dislike a role where it's goal is to entirely screw over one player still.


I love being able to pick on a random person for absolutely no reason. But this rework is pretty good too.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:32 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
How many times are we going to make these role attributes, goals, and clauses against Kingmaker that result in Schrodinger's balancing. How many unique, intriguing, and fascinating moments of gameplay will be sacrificed by virtue of heavily modifying roles rather than just fixing Kingmaker at their root.


Modifying roles is necessary generally, I'm sure some people found being revived "Intriguing" but automatically confirming yourself and having another confirmed in the revived slot, was Absurdly strong to the point where people lumped old retri with old Jailor as Town Powers. Old Spy (as much as i hate current spy still) was "unique" and interesting with it being automatically confirmed and basically cutting out any evils talking, Vampires sure are fun and unique and "Interesting" Do you see anyone advocate for it in ranked? we cannot only balance around what's Interesting, If we want to be interest go back to season 1 ranked, me and a lot of others preferred it despite it being way less balanced.

Exactly. The game tries too hard to be both fun/chaotic and competitive/balanced at the same time, and right now it's not doing a great job at either. The game needs to separate both from each other rather than putting both pieces together in all gamemodes.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:43 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote: will concede that Exe being outside of ranked is pretty much fine, Objectively I really dislike a role where it's goal is to entirely screw over one player still.


I love being able to pick on a random person for absolutely no reason. But this rework is pretty good too.

It's the fault of having Day 1 be useless to every class, We need to rework Day 1 into a normal functional day one, will this have the down side of random lynches? sometimes yeah, but I find it more balanced then everyones N1 being RANDOM.

WaveAqualei wrote:Exactly. The game tries too hard to be both fun/chaotic and competitive/balanced at the same time, and right now it's not doing a great job at either. The game needs to separate both from each other rather than putting both pieces together in all gamemodes.

My only Solution would be to replace "classic" (or at least not make it the first default game mode) With "casual" a middel ground to ranked With a similar list to old ranked (Replace second and maybe even third TS with RT) which was fun and chaotic BUT had more structure then all any.

While ranked becomes a mode more about a more grounded Role list, current ranked generally fails in the fact that NK design just doesn't currently work well for ranked, not to say it can't with some changes but this half attempt of being both fun and chaotic feels more like this boring inbalanced mess of a mode, the only mode I enjoy right now is Coven all any and coven TT, because one is pure chaos the other has structure and skill expression in ways.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:31 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:Exactly. The game tries too hard to be both fun/chaotic and competitive/balanced at the same time, and right now it's not doing a great job at either. The game needs to separate both from each other rather than putting both pieces together in all gamemodes.

My only Solution would be to replace "classic" (or at least not make it the first default game mode) With "casual" a middel ground to ranked With a similar list to old ranked (Replace second and maybe even third TS with RT) which was fun and chaotic BUT had more structure then all any.

While ranked becomes a mode more about a more grounded Role list, current ranked generally fails in the fact that NK design just doesn't currently work well for ranked, not to say it can't with some changes but this half attempt of being both fun and chaotic feels more like this boring inbalanced mess of a mode, the only mode I enjoy right now is Coven all any and coven TT, because one is pure chaos the other has structure and skill expression in ways.

I definitely would like the Casual Mode! Would be a nice alternative to Ranked.
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