Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

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Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:44 am

Executioner - Neutral (Evil)

Summary: You are an obsessed decapitator who will stop at nothing to execute the Town.

Attack: None
Defense: Basic (None after being attacked once)
Priority: 2
Unique: No

Abilities:
    You may Mark a player at night.
Attributes:
    - You have a chainmail garment that grants you Basic Defense until you are attacked.
    - You will Interrogate your target when you visit them.
    - If a Marked target is lynched the next day, you will gain the ability to roleblock or Pardon someone every night.
Mark Spoiler: Mark = Marks last two days. Marks cannot be protected against or removed. Interrogate Spoiler: Interrogate = You question your target to find out if they seem suspicious. All Mafia members, except the Godfather, will be suspicious. All Coven members, except the holder of the Necronomicon, will seem suspicious. The Executioner will seem suspicious. The Serial Killer will seem suspicious. The Werewolf will seem suspicious on Full Moon nights, and seem innocent on non-Full-Moon nights. Pardon Spoiler: Pardon = Pardoning a player will prevent them from being lynched the next day if voted on the stand, regardless of what their trial result is. You cannot Pardon yourself. You cannot Pardon the same person twice in a row.

Investigative Results:
    Sheriff: Your target is suspicious!
    Investigator: Your target could be a Sheriff, Poisoner, Executioner, or Werewolf.
    Consigliere: Your target admires the gallows. They must be an Executioner.

Goal: Survive to see the Town lose, or lynch a marked player in a game where Town loses.

Victory Conditions:
    You win with the Executioners
    You win with the Survivors
    You must kill the Town
    You win with the Mafia
    You win with the Coven/Witches
    You win with Arsonists
    You win with Juggernauts
    You win with Serial Killers
    You win with Werewolves
    You win with Vampires
    You win with Plaguebearers
    You win with Pestilence

Mechanics:
    - Your target does not have to be Town in order to be marked and lynched.
    - If you do not lynch a marked player, you have to survive until the end of the game, similar to Witch. If you lynch a marked player, you are able to win while dead as long as Town loses the game.
    - Once you lynch a marked player, you will lose the ability to mark.
    - You cannot be fooled by a Framer, Disguiser, Hex Master, or Arsonist.
    - You are Roleblock Immune only when you are roleblocking a player.
    - You may not Pardon yourself.
    - All of your visits are direct (Marking, Roleblocking, and Pardoning).
    - If you roleblock an uncautious Serial Killer, they will attack you.
    - If you roleblock a Werewolf on a Full Moon, they will rampage at home and attack you.
    - You no longer turn into a Jester.

Notifications:
    "You have decided to mark (player) tonight."
    "You have successfully gotten your target lynched!"
    "You have decided to pardon (player) tonight."
    "You have decided to distract (player) tonight."

    "Someone occupied your night. You were roleblocked!"
    "The Town has decided to Pardon (player) with a vote of (innocent votes) to (guilty votes)."

Achievements:
    Firing Squad - Win your first game as an Executioner
    Guillotine - Win 5 games as an Executioner
    Lynch 'Em - Win 10 games as an Executioner
    Gas Chamber - Win 25 games as an Executioner
    Quick Execution - Get a target lynched on Day 2
    Evade the Noose - Prevent a player from being lynched with a Pardon
    Fool's Paradise - Lynch a marked Jester
    Popular Target - Be attacked 5 or more times in a game
    Patience, Jackass, Patience - Get your target lynched on Day 10 or later
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:49 pm

another stupid rework by Wave
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:43 pm

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:another stupid rework by Wave

No actual comments or feedback? Not surprising.
Please post something that is contributing to the topic, otherwise your comment will be removed.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Cyanberry3 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:36 pm

In the mechanic, it says the Executioner cannot be fooled by framers, disguisers, hex masters, and arsonists, but in the Interrogation section it says Framed and Hexed players show suspicious? Which is it
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:13 am

/Support

Goal: Survive to see the Town lose, or lynch a marked player in a game where Town loses.

/DoubleSupport

Yes please, we need a neutral evil Executioner
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:16 pm

Cyanberry3 wrote:In the mechanic, it says the Executioner cannot be fooled by framers, disguisers, hex masters, and arsonists, but in the Interrogation section it says Framed and Hexed players show suspicious? Which is it

Apologies, it's the former. I copied Sheriff's Interrogation text and just pasted it here without realizing. Thanks for pointing that out!
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:38 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:/Support

Goal: Survive to see the Town lose, or lynch a marked player in a game where Town loses.

/DoubleSupport

Yes please, we need a neutral evil Executioner

I'm glad you like this! I remember you being pretty lenient on it moving to Neutral Chaos but I'm glad I made a concept viable.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:39 pm

I like this role alot, but I think it should be it's own role instead of replacing the Executioner, and then the current Executioner + Jester are moved to Neutral Chaos to avoid muddying the Neutral Evil pool, since those roles are really fun to play as is outside of competitive formats. Maybe under a name like 'Headhunter' or 'Neurotic'.

Hell maybe even go a Terraria-like route where the Executioner is kept the same except specifically in ranked-practice or ranked where he takes on these properties.

/support but in that weird way of implementation lol
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Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
Survivor Change
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:16 pm

scarfves wrote:I like this role alot, but I think it should be it's own role instead of replacing the Executioner, and then the current Executioner + Jester are moved to Neutral Chaos to avoid muddying the Neutral Evil pool, since those roles are really fun to play as is outside of competitive formats. Maybe under a name like 'Headhunter' or 'Neurotic'.

Hell maybe even go a Terraria-like route where the Executioner is kept the same except specifically in ranked-practice or ranked where he takes on these properties.

/support but in that weird way of implementation lol

I don't understand the point of keeping both roles if this version is better than the other however. Feels counterproductive and we'll end up having two types of the same role.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:31 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:I like this role alot, but I think it should be it's own role instead of replacing the Executioner, and then the current Executioner + Jester are moved to Neutral Chaos to avoid muddying the Neutral Evil pool, since those roles are really fun to play as is outside of competitive formats. Maybe under a name like 'Headhunter' or 'Neurotic'.

Hell maybe even go a Terraria-like route where the Executioner is kept the same except specifically in ranked-practice or ranked where he takes on these properties.

/support but in that weird way of implementation lol

I don't understand the point of keeping both roles if this version is better than the other however. Feels counterproductive and we'll end up having two types of the same role.

In theme and fun factor, the current Executioner wins since he plays the role of a vengeful character who will do anything to get at one specific person. In my close-knit group of around 10 people, adding the Executioner to our custom games adds a fun level of tension, social interaction, and spicyness amongst the group. We pretty much only play games that have an Executioner-esqe role (TOS, Town of Us, TTT Wetworks Beta) because it really is just that fun. Same also applies to the Jester.

In balance and consistency factor, this Executioner wins as he can't afford to be a Kingmaker for the town and can know who is evil. Within the ranked setting where winning can be argued to be more important, this is perfect.

I'd really hate to see the old Executioner removed more than this one being added since you are no longer forced into a specific target and you have access in knowing who is evil, which eliminates the fun where you have to take in social-cues and slowly manipulate others into lynching your target.
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treasured ideas:
Gunslinger
Mafioso Removal + Godfather Rework
Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
Survivor Change
Saboteur
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:45 pm

scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:I like this role alot, but I think it should be it's own role instead of replacing the Executioner, and then the current Executioner + Jester are moved to Neutral Chaos to avoid muddying the Neutral Evil pool, since those roles are really fun to play as is outside of competitive formats. Maybe under a name like 'Headhunter' or 'Neurotic'.

Hell maybe even go a Terraria-like route where the Executioner is kept the same except specifically in ranked-practice or ranked where he takes on these properties.

/support but in that weird way of implementation lol

I don't understand the point of keeping both roles if this version is better than the other however. Feels counterproductive and we'll end up having two types of the same role.

In theme and fun factor, the current Executioner wins since he plays the role of a vengeful character who will do anything to get at one specific person. In my close-knit group of around 10 people, adding the Executioner to our custom games adds a fun level of tension, social interaction, and spicyness amongst the group. We pretty much only play games that have an Executioner-esqe role (TOS, Town of Us, TTT Wetworks Beta) because it really is just that fun. Same also applies to the Jester.

In balance and consistency factor, this Executioner wins as he can't afford to be a Kingmaker for the town and can know who is evil. Within the ranked setting where winning can be argued to be more important, this is perfect.

I'd really hate to see the old Executioner removed more than this one being added since you are no longer forced into a specific target and you have access in knowing who is evil, which eliminates the fun where you have to take in social-cues and slowly manipulate others into lynching your target.

The problem with Executioner is the kingmaking scenarios and being utterly useless outside of lynching one player. An Arsonist can mislynch a Townie D2 and it will serve the exact same purpose as current Executioner. What makes it tricky is that if you make it where Executioner can't win with Town, then no one will want to play it as it would be extremely underpowered and give evils nearly no support (as you're practically an Evil role with Basic Defense). That's why I went the way I did with this overhaul, since just changing the goal simply wasn't enough.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:45 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:I like this role alot, but I think it should be it's own role instead of replacing the Executioner, and then the current Executioner + Jester are moved to Neutral Chaos to avoid muddying the Neutral Evil pool, since those roles are really fun to play as is outside of competitive formats. Maybe under a name like 'Headhunter' or 'Neurotic'.

Hell maybe even go a Terraria-like route where the Executioner is kept the same except specifically in ranked-practice or ranked where he takes on these properties.

/support but in that weird way of implementation lol

I don't understand the point of keeping both roles if this version is better than the other however. Feels counterproductive and we'll end up having two types of the same role.

In theme and fun factor, the current Executioner wins since he plays the role of a vengeful character who will do anything to get at one specific person. In my close-knit group of around 10 people, adding the Executioner to our custom games adds a fun level of tension, social interaction, and spicyness amongst the group. We pretty much only play games that have an Executioner-esqe role (TOS, Town of Us, TTT Wetworks Beta) because it really is just that fun. Same also applies to the Jester.

In balance and consistency factor, this Executioner wins as he can't afford to be a Kingmaker for the town and can know who is evil. Within the ranked setting where winning can be argued to be more important, this is perfect.

I'd really hate to see the old Executioner removed more than this one being added since you are no longer forced into a specific target and you have access in knowing who is evil, which eliminates the fun where you have to take in social-cues and slowly manipulate others into lynching your target.

The problem with Executioner is the kingmaking scenarios and being utterly useless outside of lynching one player. An Arsonist can mislynch a Townie D2 and it will serve the exact same purpose as current Executioner. What makes it tricky is that if you make it where Executioner can't win with Town, then no one will want to play it as it would be extremely underpowered and give evils nearly no support (as you're practically an Evil role with Basic Defense). That's why I went the way I did with this overhaul, since just changing the goal simply wasn't enough.

That is true, within the grand scheme of a factional win instead of individual wins, the Executioner does have that issue. Based on your post, here is what I suggest is a good counterbalance for balance and fun based on the identity of the Executioner. A metamorphosis from his original conception where instead of being a vengeful lyncher who wants to humiliate and spite a single player, he is a vengeful townie who wants to throw the game in favor of evil in spite of a single player.

  • At the start of the game, the Executioner effectively transforms into a random Town role - akin to a traitor where they have the same abilities and attributes of the Town role but their role card color and goal are different. The blacklist of available roles they cannot be are any town roles with any attack power, and the Transporter. Their invest results however reflects the current Exe results instead of the role they transformed into.
  • Still retains the Basic Auto-Vest and goal, but cannot mark any players manually. It's back to the original system where you get a random townie as your target, however now it excludes all unique roles as potential targets.
  • When you get your target lynched, you gain 2 Pardons/Roleblocks (the uses are merged). You can swap between using your town ability or pardon ability through a coin toggle.
  • Attempting to use a Pardon on a Townie or NB will fail and you will be notified, a use isn't consumed.
  • Attempting to use a Roleblock on a person that isn't a Townie or NB will fail and you will be notified, a use isn't consumed.
yeah, i go by qry on discord; shut up!
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treasured ideas:
Gunslinger
Mafioso Removal + Godfather Rework
Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
Survivor Change
Saboteur
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Poryg » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:49 pm

Executioner is not exactly useless apart from that one lynch. It's one of the few roles in the game that give you almost total freedom on how to play it and the fallback to jester helps it too as you don't need to care about dying so much. If you win, nothing prevents you from continuing to play the game with the added benefit that it doesn't matter to you whether you live, or die. And when I had another fellow exe, we've been able to single-handedly paralyze town, because the chaos we generated prevented important info from coming through. I agree with exe being an inherently chaotic role. But I disagree with it being useless.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:21 am

Poryg wrote:Executioner is not exactly useless apart from that one lynch. It's one of the few roles in the game that give you almost total freedom on how to play it and the fallback to jester helps it too as you don't need to care about dying so much. If you win, nothing prevents you from continuing to play the game with the added benefit that it doesn't matter to you whether you live, or die. And when I had another fellow exe, we've been able to single-handedly paralyze town, because the chaos we generated prevented important info from coming through. I agree with exe being an inherently chaotic role. But I disagree with it being useless.

You do realize any role can do that, right? This isn't limited to just Executioner...
The whole point of this rework is to fulfill the Neutral Evil goal, which is to help evils and hurt Town. Vanilla Executioner rarely helps evils; if it does then all it does is give evils an extra vote, which is something the Witch can already do but better.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:22 am

scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:The problem with Executioner is the kingmaking scenarios and being utterly useless outside of lynching one player. An Arsonist can mislynch a Townie D2 and it will serve the exact same purpose as current Executioner. What makes it tricky is that if you make it where Executioner can't win with Town, then no one will want to play it as it would be extremely underpowered and give evils nearly no support (as you're practically an Evil role with Basic Defense). That's why I went the way I did with this overhaul, since just changing the goal simply wasn't enough.

That is true, within the grand scheme of a factional win instead of individual wins, the Executioner does have that issue. Based on your post, here is what I suggest is a good counterbalance for balance and fun based on the identity of the Executioner. A metamorphosis from his original conception where instead of being a vengeful lyncher who wants to humiliate and spite a single player, he is a vengeful townie who wants to throw the game in favor of evil in spite of a single player.

  • At the start of the game, the Executioner effectively transforms into a random Town role - akin to a traitor where they have the same abilities and attributes of the Town role but their role card color and goal are different. The blacklist of available roles they cannot be are any town roles with any attack power, and the Transporter. Their invest results however reflects the current Exe results instead of the role they transformed into.
  • Still retains the Basic Auto-Vest and goal, but cannot mark any players manually. It's back to the original system where you get a random townie as your target, however now it excludes all unique roles as potential targets.
  • When you get your target lynched, you gain 2 Pardons/Roleblocks (the uses are merged). You can swap between using your town ability or pardon ability through a coin toggle.
  • Attempting to use a Pardon on a Townie or NB will fail and you will be notified, a use isn't consumed.
  • Attempting to use a Roleblock on a person that isn't a Townie or NB will fail and you will be notified, a use isn't consumed.

What does this even do? This just makes it more omniscient and random. I think my edits are fine.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby scarfves » Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:42 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:The problem with Executioner is the kingmaking scenarios and being utterly useless outside of lynching one player. An Arsonist can mislynch a Townie D2 and it will serve the exact same purpose as current Executioner. What makes it tricky is that if you make it where Executioner can't win with Town, then no one will want to play it as it would be extremely underpowered and give evils nearly no support (as you're practically an Evil role with Basic Defense). That's why I went the way I did with this overhaul, since just changing the goal simply wasn't enough.

That is true, within the grand scheme of a factional win instead of individual wins, the Executioner does have that issue. Based on your post, here is what I suggest is a good counterbalance for balance and fun based on the identity of the Executioner. A metamorphosis from his original conception where instead of being a vengeful lyncher who wants to humiliate and spite a single player, he is a vengeful townie who wants to throw the game in favor of evil in spite of a single player.

  • At the start of the game, the Executioner effectively transforms into a random Town role - akin to a traitor where they have the same abilities and attributes of the Town role but their role card color and goal are different. The blacklist of available roles they cannot be are any town roles with any attack power, and the Transporter. Their invest results however reflects the current Exe results instead of the role they transformed into.
  • Still retains the Basic Auto-Vest and goal, but cannot mark any players manually. It's back to the original system where you get a random townie as your target, however now it excludes all unique roles as potential targets.
  • When you get your target lynched, you gain 2 Pardons/Roleblocks (the uses are merged). You can swap between using your town ability or pardon ability through a coin toggle.
  • Attempting to use a Pardon on a Townie or NB will fail and you will be notified, a use isn't consumed.
  • Attempting to use a Roleblock on a person that isn't a Townie or NB will fail and you will be notified, a use isn't consumed.

What does this even do? This just makes it more omniscient and random. I think my edits are fine.

This rework of the Executioner lacks the thrill and self-reward of the current Executioner. It no longer feels like you have this vendetta against a single person that's beyond lifespans, using your silver tongue and skills of deception to get them lynched on the gallows and that is your only goal. The ability to change the target sounds much less interesting and engaging, almost like a crutch. Additionally you have to get the town's downfall but once you've gotten anyone lynched, everyone will just ignore you indefinitely. Although it appears to be more balanced in the perspective of ranked, it appears to be much less boring to play. To counterbalance the removal of interrogation and manual choosing of a target which I feel are more problematic, you have a random town role to support your own findings or to gain trust from the town, and you gain double the rewards from successfully lynching your target. This now makes it so you can constantly upkeep the action, and additionally it reboots the old idea of obsessed maniacal with a grudge against a single person to also have a pinch of a 'Game-throwing' townie.
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treasured ideas:
Gunslinger
Mafioso Removal + Godfather Rework
Move Plaguebearer from Neutral Chaos to Neutral Killing
Survivor Change
Saboteur
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Poryg » Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:24 pm

You do realize any role can do that, right? This isn't limited to just Executioner...


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Disruptive results provoke 1v1 votes. Mafia and coven have numbers, but they can't always afford to go 1v1. Mafia even less than coven as coven has kpn. And other evil roles aren't qualified for this, because they cannot afford to go 1v1 against town or mafia. Exes and jests are the only roles with a degree of true immunity against a 1v1. Lynching or exing an exe that won is a waste of time. And lynching a jester is sth they want anyway.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:14 pm

Poryg wrote:
You do realize any role can do that, right? This isn't limited to just Executioner...


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Disruptive results provoke 1v1 votes. Mafia and coven have numbers, but they can't always afford to go 1v1. Mafia even less than coven as coven has kpn. And other evil roles aren't qualified for this, because they cannot afford to go 1v1 against town or mafia. Exes and jests are the only roles with a degree of true immunity against a 1v1. Lynching or exing an exe that won is a waste of time. And lynching a jester is sth they want anyway.

This overhaul does that but better.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:15 pm

scarfves wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:What does this even do? This just makes it more omniscient and random. I think my edits are fine.

This rework of the Executioner lacks the thrill and self-reward of the current Executioner. It no longer feels like you have this vendetta against a single person that's beyond lifespans, using your silver tongue and skills of deception to get them lynched on the gallows and that is your only goal. The ability to change the target sounds much less interesting and engaging, almost like a crutch. Additionally you have to get the town's downfall but once you've gotten anyone lynched, everyone will just ignore you indefinitely. Although it appears to be more balanced in the perspective of ranked, it appears to be much less boring to play. To counterbalance the removal of interrogation and manual choosing of a target which I feel are more problematic, you have a random town role to support your own findings or to gain trust from the town, and you gain double the rewards from successfully lynching your target. This now makes it so you can constantly upkeep the action, and additionally it reboots the old idea of obsessed maniacal with a grudge against a single person to also have a pinch of a 'Game-throwing' townie.

Fun is entirely subjective and something that you shouldn't balance around. RNG is also something you shouldn't balance around. Neither of your changes would fix core problems of base Executioner.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Poryg » Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:27 am

This overhaul does that but better.


Actually, it does not do that at all. Let alone better.
Instead of having a guaranteed town target, he may now mark an evil. Hanging an evil however goes directly against his other win con - he has to make sure town loses.
Since he has no fallback to jester, if his target gets killed instead of lynched and he's town, it's bye bye to win as he will get lynched.
And even if he does lynch his mark, he's not immune to a 1v1 at all, because getting killed now hurts his winning chances.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:47 am

Poryg wrote:
This overhaul does that but better.

Actually, it does not do that at all. Let alone better.
Instead of having a guaranteed town target, he may now mark an evil. Hanging an evil however goes directly against his other win con - he has to make sure town loses.

Vanilla Executioner can side with Town and go against evils which is objectively worse. If an Executioner can predict who Town is going to lynch they can mark them. Witch also can try to get rid of an evil while siding with another evil (most common way of this is lynching the NK and siding with Mafia).
Since he has no fallback to jester, if his target gets killed instead of lynched and he's town, it's bye bye to win as he will get lynched.

This overhaul has unlimited marks; they're able to mark someone every night until a marked player gets lynched.
And even if he does lynch his mark, he's not immune to a 1v1 at all, because getting killed now hurts his winning chances.

The difference between this overhaul and the vanilla version would be that the Executioner can't win with Town. That is one of the issues with Executioner and that will not be changing in this overhaul.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Poryg » Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:19 am

I wouldn't say it's objectively worse. It's not good for ranked as there's a need for good and evil to be balanced there, I 100% agree with that. But objectively worse? In chaos modes vanilla exe is perfectly fine even if he does side town. Move exe and jester out of ranked as the two are inherently chaotic roles, that's fine with me. And as has been suggested earlier, maybe introduce this as a separate role, for instance psychopath. But I don't really see the need to butcher exe into something completely different.

The marks are unlimited, yes. But that's irrelevant in regards to my point.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:40 am

Poryg wrote:I wouldn't say it's objectively worse. It's not good for ranked as there's a need for good and evil to be balanced there, I 100% agree with that. But objectively worse? In chaos modes vanilla exe is perfectly fine even if he does side town. Move exe and jester out of ranked as the two are inherently chaotic roles, that's fine with me. And as has been suggested earlier, maybe introduce this as a separate role, for instance psychopath. But I don't really see the need to butcher exe into something completely different.

Vanilla Executioner creates kingmaking scenarios in Chaos Gamemodes (something you also shouldn't balance around). The whole point of this Overhaul is to have more Neutral Evils alongside Witch. This serves the same purpose and playstyle as Vanilla Executioner, which is why it's an Overhaul for the role rather than its own concept.
The marks are unlimited, yes. But that's irrelevant in regards to my point.

Your point was that the Executioner would no longer have a chance to win. Was there something I missed? I thought that point was already negated.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby Poryg » Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:36 am

Executioner is a kingmaker. Witch is a kingmaker. Survivor is a kingmaker. Jester is a kingmaker. Every non-killing neutral role is a kingmaker in chaos games. Sometimes even townies are.
And no, neither the purpose nor the playstyle of this executioner are the same as vanilla one. Both their goals and abilities are completely different, hence they cannot be the same.

Yes, you missed something. My comment was a reply to you saying that your overhaul creates the same immunities as vanilla exe, but better, which was simply not true. Hence contextually it was completely irrelevant that his marks are now infinite.
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Re: Executioner Overhaul (Neutral Evil)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:14 am

Yeah. kingmaking should be reduced as much as posible, maybe even remove it (but I dont think that can happen without adding overly complicated mechanics)
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