Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

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Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:48 am

Arsonist - Neutral (Killing)

Attack: Unstoppable
Defense: Basic
Priority: 3 (dousing), 5 (igniting)
Unique: No

Abilities:
    - You may Douse someone or clean a Doused target at night.
Attributes:
    - Select yourself to ignite all Doused people, dealing an Unstoppable Attack.
    - If you do not visit, you will clean gasoline off of yourself and Douse any of your visitors.
    - You will be suspicious to the Sheriff the night you clean yourself, and for the rest of the game after igniting.
Spoiler: Douse = Doused targets will appear as the Arsonist to an Investigator, Consigliere, Coven Leader, and Potion Master. Players, other than Arsonists, will not know they were Doused.

Investigative Results:
    Sheriff: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent. (nights before igniting) | Your target is suspicious! (night that it ignites and onward)
    Investigator: You target could be a Bodyguard, Crusader, Godfather, or Arsonist.
    Consigliere: Your target likes to watch things burn. They must be an Arsonist.

Goal: Burn everyone who would oppose you.

Victory Conditions: Unchanged.

Mechanics:
    - The Arsonist appears innocent to the Sheriff until it ignites; they will be suspicious to the Sheriff for the rest of the game, starting on the night it ignites.
    - The Arsonist loses its Detection Immunity for the night if it cleans itself.
    - Douses are no longer shared among other Arsonists.
    - If an Arsonist is roleblocked, they will clean themselves and Douse any of their visitors instead.
    - If an Arsonist is jailed, they will Douse the Jailor.

Achievements:
    Pyromaniac - Win your first game as an Arsonist
    Firebug - Win 5 games as an Arsonist
    Incendiary - Win 10 games as an Arsonist
    Ifrit - Win 25 games as an Arsonist
    It's gettin' hot in here - Ignite yourself
    Adding Fuel to the Fire - Douse 3 people visiting you in one night
    There can be only one - Ignite a Serial Killer and Godfather in the same night
    Disco Inferno - Ignite 5 or more people in one night
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby pro1001 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:30 pm

Yeah I agree if arso gets jailed the jailor should be doused
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:51 pm

pro1001 wrote:Yeah I agree if arso gets jailed the jailor should be doused

They already doused the Jailor previously but I wanted to specify for anyone.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby SkyW » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:42 pm

Finally. A slight possibility of arsonists to get more than 1KPN (they won't, cope and seethe arsonist fans [I am an arsonist fan and I am malding and hyperventilating])

Detection changes promote the longer playstyle, wait until everyone except you and another are doused then ignite, also known as the best way to play arsonist.

My only question is if you're made aware who you've doused. It's difficult to know when to ignite if you don't know who's doused.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:47 pm

SkyW wrote:Finally. A slight possibility of arsonists to get more than 1KPN (they won't, cope and seethe arsonist fans [I am an arsonist fan and I am malding and hyperventilating])

Detection changes promote the longer playstyle, wait until everyone except you and another are doused then ignite, also known as the best way to play arsonist.

My only question is if you're made aware who you've doused. It's difficult to know when to ignite if you don't know who's doused.

I'm assuming you haven't played the game in awhile, since Arsonist now always passively douses visitors (this was an unbalanced change since it didn't require any skill). I would suggest looking at the wiki to see how current Arsonist works, since it was changed quite a bit.
But to answer your question: yes, Arsonist can see who is doused in the UI.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby timurtheking » Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:00 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
SkyW wrote:Finally. A slight possibility of arsonists to get more than 1KPN (they won't, cope and seethe arsonist fans [I am an arsonist fan and I am malding and hyperventilating])

Detection changes promote the longer playstyle, wait until everyone except you and another are doused then ignite, also known as the best way to play arsonist.

My only question is if you're made aware who you've doused. It's difficult to know when to ignite if you don't know who's doused.

I'm assuming you haven't played the game in awhile, since Arsonist now always passively douses visitors (this was an unbalanced change since it didn't require any skill). I would suggest looking at the wiki to see how current Arsonist works, since it was changed quite a bit.
But to answer your question: yes, Arsonist can see who is doused in the UI.

what ta fek, visitors on arso autodouse?
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:24 pm

timurtheking wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
SkyW wrote:Finally. A slight possibility of arsonists to get more than 1KPN (they won't, cope and seethe arsonist fans [I am an arsonist fan and I am malding and hyperventilating])

Detection changes promote the longer playstyle, wait until everyone except you and another are doused then ignite, also known as the best way to play arsonist.

My only question is if you're made aware who you've doused. It's difficult to know when to ignite if you don't know who's doused.

I'm assuming you haven't played the game in awhile, since Arsonist now always passively douses visitors (this was an unbalanced change since it didn't require any skill). I would suggest looking at the wiki to see how current Arsonist works, since it was changed quite a bit.
But to answer your question: yes, Arsonist can see who is doused in the UI.

what ta fek, visitors on arso autodouse?

Yeah... it's too free. That's why I wanted it to be an optional thing.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby Poryg » Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:27 pm

The primary reason to the passive dousing buff was, arso was a notoriously weak role. And it still is. Nothing prevents maf, vigs and jailor from killing all your doused targets. And even if you manage to douse everybody, you're still the only NK vulnerable to rb. On all any this change would've made more sense, but on ranked I don't see a reason for this nerf.

I can see why arso would get sus after igniting and I'm okay with it. But I can't really justify why should he lose his detection immunity just for the night he takes a bath at home. Gasoline and matches are everyday items and soap is too. Although if you ask me, I don't really see a reason to tinker with the detection immunity. SK has RB immunity. WW rampages at home if rbd. Arso's detection immunity allows him to slip under the radar better.

And while I agree that arsos seeing each other's douses is too strong, I wouldn't entirely remove it. I'd nerf it to a point where if arso visits a target that's already doused, he receives the feedback saying that the target is doused. Without any feedback whatsoever there isn't really a way for arsos to figure out there are more than 1 arso until one douses the other. Which makes arsos the only killing role incapable of coordinating with other teammates.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:37 am

Poryg wrote:The primary reason to the passive dousing buff was, arso was a notoriously weak role. And it still is. Nothing prevents maf, vigs and jailor from killing all your doused targets. And even if you manage to douse everybody, you're still the only NK vulnerable to rb. On all any this change would've made more sense, but on ranked I don't see a reason for this nerf.

Juggernaut is more vulnerable to roleblocks. Arsonist goes undetected anyway so that doesn't really matter. Arsonist has no skill from ultimately dousing visitors.

I can see why arso would get sus after igniting and I'm okay with it. But I can't really justify why should he lose his detection immunity just for the night he takes a bath at home. Gasoline and matches are everyday items and soap is too. Although if you ask me, I don't really see a reason to tinker with the detection immunity. SK has RB immunity. WW rampages at home if rbd. Arso's detection immunity allows him to slip under the radar better.

Gasoline didn't exist in the 1600s, so it would make sense if a Sheriff thought it was suspicious. Sheriff needs to be able to find more Neutrals, since it's the weakest TI by a wide margin. Also, balance is meant to be put first above lore, since the lore at the moment doesn't make much sense.

And while I agree that arsos seeing each other's douses is too strong, I wouldn't entirely remove it. I'd nerf it to a point where if arso visits a target that's already doused, he receives the feedback saying that the target is doused. Without any feedback whatsoever there isn't really a way for arsos to figure out there are more than 1 arso until one douses the other. Which makes arsos the only killing role incapable of coordinating with other teammates.

Arsonists can't see who else is doused, but if they ignite, ALL doused targets are ignited, whether it be from themselves or other Arsonists. I want to strip that away.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby Poryg » Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:57 am

Juggernaut is more vulnerable to roleblocks. Arsonist goes undetected anyway so that doesn't really matter. Arsonist has no skill from ultimately dousing visitors.

Juggernaut isn't in ranked.

Sheriff needs to be able to find more Neutrals, since it's the weakest TI by a wide margin.
You aren't making sense. You want to make sheriff stronger relative to other TIs, because he is weak. But instead of buffing sheriff or nerfing other TIs, you prefer to nerf an already weak role who as a solo role is going to suffer from the nerfs more than sheriff who has other allies. So do you want strong roles? Weak roles? Or just a strong town? I don't understand.
Also, I repeat. Roles are centered around ranked. In ranked, sheriff cannot see arso and GF. Other killing roles or mafia won't hide.

Arsonists can't see who else is doused, but if they ignite, ALL doused targets are ignited, whether it be from themselves or other Arsonists. I want to strip that away.

I assumed that was the case, so it bears no relevance to my argument. It is however interesting to see how you want to take away certain element of arso, because "there is no skill in them", but you also have no qualms about taking away the only way arsos can reasonably find each other out and coordinate... Making arso a much more luck based role than it is now when arsos know who is doused.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:30 am

Poryg wrote:
Juggernaut is more vulnerable to roleblocks. Arsonist goes undetected anyway so that doesn't really matter. Arsonist has no skill from ultimately dousing visitors.

Juggernaut isn't in ranked.

Juggernaut is still a Neutral Killing role which is meant to be balanced around its Ranked equivalent, Coven Ranked.

Sheriff needs to be able to find more Neutrals, since it's the weakest TI by a wide margin.
You aren't making sense. You want to make sheriff stronger relative to other TIs, because he is weak. But instead of buffing sheriff or nerfing other TIs, you prefer to nerf an already weak role who as a solo role is going to suffer from the nerfs more than sheriff who has other allies. So do you want strong roles? Weak roles? Or just a strong town? I don't understand.
Also, I repeat. Roles are centered around ranked. In ranked, sheriff cannot see arso and GF. Other killing roles or mafia won't hide.

Sheriff does not need any direct buffs, but rather they need indirect buffs by removing some of the Neutral roles' Detection Immunity. Arsonist is by far the strongest NK, and it's a bit free in its current state.
I want balanced roles, which is why I also allowed it to side with Witches easier.

Arsonists can't see who else is doused, but if they ignite, ALL doused targets are ignited, whether it be from themselves or other Arsonists. I want to strip that away.

I assumed that was the case, so it bears no relevance to my argument. It is however interesting to see how you want to take away certain element of arso, because "there is no skill in them", but you also have no qualms about taking away the only way arsos can reasonably find each other out and coordinate... Making arso a much more luck based role than it is now when arsos know who is doused.

If two Arsonists find each other (which isn't possible in Ranked), then they can tell each other who they have doused already and then they can both ignite at the same time. I don't see an issue with that.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby Poryg » Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:14 am

Sheriff does not need any direct buffs, but rather they need indirect buffs by removing some of the Neutral roles' Detection Immunity. Arsonist is by far the strongest NK, and it's a bit free in its current state.
I want balanced roles, which is why I also allowed it to side with Witches easier.

You allowed him to side with witches more easily, but in the process you reverted him almost to the version that him once was. And that version was weaker than other NKs by a large margin.
Arso was always an inherently luck based role that was essentially on his own. Other evils don't need him, because he doesn't have an ability to decrease town numbers efficiently. And not only he needs to douse people, doused people that die are essentially wasted nights. Passive douse, while not perfect, is a solution to increase the amount of douses in a semi-reliable way, reducing the amount of luck arso needs to win.

If two Arsonists find each other (which isn't possible in Ranked), then they can tell each other who they have doused already and then they can both ignite at the same time. I don't see an issue with that.

IF two arsonists find each other. You're introducing another luck based element - arso A needs to visit arso B and then wait until arso B cleans themselves or arso B needs to randomly ignite for arso A to figure out there is another arso in the game.
SKs can figure out whether there are more SKs very quickly, because they receive immediate feedback in the kill. Then all they have to do is scumread. But arso needs to be lucky to find another arso with your suggestion.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:30 pm

Poryg wrote:
Sheriff does not need any direct buffs, but rather they need indirect buffs by removing some of the Neutral roles' Detection Immunity. Arsonist is by far the strongest NK, and it's a bit free in its current state.
I want balanced roles, which is why I also allowed it to side with Witches easier.

You allowed him to side with witches more easily, but in the process you reverted him almost to the version that him once was. And that version was weaker than other NKs by a large margin.
Arso was always an inherently luck based role that was essentially on his own. Other evils don't need him, because he doesn't have an ability to decrease town numbers efficiently. And not only he needs to douse people, doused people that die are essentially wasted nights. Passive douse, while not perfect, is a solution to increase the amount of douses in a semi-reliable way, reducing the amount of luck arso needs to win.

This Rework still has the ability to passively douse, but it makes the role actually have to play for them instead of it being a braindead solution.

If two Arsonists find each other (which isn't possible in Ranked), then they can tell each other who they have doused already and then they can both ignite at the same time. I don't see an issue with that.

IF two arsonists find each other. You're introducing another luck based element - arso A needs to visit arso B and then wait until arso B cleans themselves or arso B needs to randomly ignite for arso A to figure out there is another arso in the game.
SKs can figure out whether there are more SKs very quickly, because they receive immediate feedback in the kill. Then all they have to do is scumread. But arso needs to be lucky to find another arso with your suggestion.

I don't see how that's an issue; Arsonist is already much better than Serial Killer is.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby Poryg » Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:07 am

This Rework still has the ability to passively douse, but it makes the role actually have to play for them instead of it being a braindead solution.

Your version of passive douse just as braindead, because it's 100% luck, 0% skill. With the important note that with sheriff vulnerability silent arso hardly makes any sense, making the passive douse practically redundant.

I don't see how that's an issue; Arsonist is already much better than Serial Killer is.

Ok, I'll highlight it for you.

The current version is better than SK. Your suggestion however is a sucker. Even 1 arso compared to 1 SK, let alone 2 arsos compared to 2 SKs.
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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby DragoWhooves » Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:42 pm

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Re: Arsonist Rework (Neutral Killing)

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:04 pm

I'd prolly rework it's decetion immunity it's kinda pointless for it to be detection immune 90% of the game, might aswell not have it, I actually personally think Arsonist while dousing should show up as Suspicous but when staying home or igniting they should show up innocent, this makes dousing more risky then it currently is while dousing, it doesn't even have to worry about tps in general.

I think arso needs a rework (werewolf too) if they want NK to function in ranked play, currently ARSO/WW are just so chaotic and bring a lot of RNG KPN to the game, we should aim to stabilise KPN while also buffing NK's in other ways.

I actually think a balanced arsonist is great for the game, because unlike sk/ww games its a sustained over time NK that doesn't swing the game quickly, the issue is rn passive dousing is a pain for witches and annoying rng.
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