Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:19 am

Actually I said "read the post properly" Was not meant to come off as rude and how am I meant to know that they're dyslexic?

Roles shouldn't be balanced around AA though. Also only 1 Horsemen and 1 Chosen would be able to appear in a game.

How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:20 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:An evil Jailor would be unbalanced in a 6vs9 game, that is true. But that is a very chaotic setup and I've already listed reasons prior as to how that makes the game unbalanced.

An evil Jailor would be fine in a 4vs11 game or a 3vs2vs10

There's a delay with killing somebody

Maybe in this one rolelist but you also have to take other gamemodes with an "Any" slot into perspective.


Jailor spawns in All Any as the only town role, hows that any better?
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:30 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Actually I said "read the post properly" Was not meant to come off as rude and how am I meant to know that they're dyslexic?


Roles shouldn't be balanced around AA though. Also only 1 Horsemen and 1 Chosen would be able to appear in a game.

They aren't but they should be taken into perspective, especially roles that can't appear in ranked.

How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.

No that's too strong.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:31 am

Jailor spawns in All Any as the only town role, hows that any better?

Jailor is part of a faction that doesn't have a night chat (the faction itself, not Jailor).

You can't even balance an evil Jailor because Jailor itself isn't balanced either.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:36 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.


No that's too strong.


I've designed the setup as a 4vs11. I know I said no more than 5 evils, but if there were 5 it would be 3 VS 2NEorNB VS 10 Town. But I'm going for 4vs11

Jailor is part of a faction that doesn't have a night chat (the faction itself, not Jailor).

You can't even balance an evil Jailor because Jailor itself isn't balanced either.


Jailor needs limited Jails and the removal of "your ability failed because your target was in Jail"

Saying you can't balance 1 role because another is unbalanced. What? That's not true

Role Balancing
Roles should be equally balanced to their sub-alignment. No role within one bracket should be more powerful than the other. This would give TK roles equal killing power. Also remove the 100% chance of a Jailor spawning

Spoiler: Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique

Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)

Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt
Last edited by TheTraitorofSalem on Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:40 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.


No that's too strong.


I've designed the setup as a 4vs11. I know I said no more than 5 evils, but if there were 5 it would be 3 VS 2NEorNB VS 10 Town. But I'm going for 4vs11

Jailor is part of a faction that doesn't have a night chat (the faction itself, not Jailor).

You can't even balance an evil Jailor because Jailor itself isn't balanced either.

Jailor needs limited Jails and the removal of "your ability failed because your target was in Jail"
Saying you can't balance 1 role because another is unbalanced. What? That's not true

Jailor being a power role makes sense and I'd prefer it stay that way, but I don't think Jailor should be able to jail the same person twice in a row.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:43 am

Role balancing for TK attached in above post in Spoiler.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:45 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Role balancing for TK attached in above post in Spoiler.

What?
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:05 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Role balancing for TK attached in above post in Spoiler.

What?

Exactly what I said
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:14 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Role balancing for TK attached in above post in Spoiler.

What?

Exactly what I said

Yeah I just see rolelists, no explaining.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:31 pm

Sample Game

Rolelist:
Random Horseman
Chosen
Random Acolyte

Neutral Killing
Neutral Random
(Exclude Killing)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town


Non Hidden Rolelist:
Spoiler: Death 7
Chosen (Death) 1
Doom Bringer
15
Serial Killer 2
Executioner 3
Investigator 9
Tracker 14
Priest 4
Doctor 11
Vigilante 5
Retributionist 8
Vigilante 10
Sheriff 13
Sheriff 6
Transporter 12


Night 1:
Death (7) marks 9
Chosen & Doom Bringer take no action
Serial Killer (2) kills 8

Day 2:
Retributionist (8) died
Executioner (3) says 13 is Suspicious
Sheriff (13) gets lynched
Executioner says ty for win

Night 2:
Death (7) kills 9
Chosen (1) gains an extra kill tomorrow
Chosen kills 6
Transporter (12) swaps 2 & 6
Vigilante (10) attacks Executioner (3) (immune)
Chosen hits Serial Killer (2) (immune)
Serial Killer (2) kills 4

Day 3:
Investigator (9) died
Priest (4) died
Sheriff (6) says 1 is Sus
Vigilante (10) stays quiet
Town starts voting 1
Doombringer creates an Eclipse
Day ends/no votes

Night 3:
Non Horsemen cannot target
Death (7) marks 5
Chosen (1) kills 11

Day 4:
Doctor (11) died
3vs1vs1vs6 currently
Chosen (1) gets voted up and lynched
2vs1vs1vs6

Updated Rolelist:
Spoiler: Death (7)
Doom Bringer (15)
Serial Killer (2)
Executioner (3)
Tracker (14)
Priest (4)
Vigilante (5)
Vigilante (10)
Sheriff (6)
Transporter (12)



Night 4:
Death (7) kills 5
Vigilante (5) shoots (15)
Transporter (12) swaps 15 and himself
Vigilante (10) shoots 2 (sk immune)

Day 5:
Vigilante (5) died
Transporter (12) died
Vigilante (10) outs SK as Immune
Town lynch Serial Killer (2)

Night 5:
Vigilante (10) kills 15
Death marks (10)

Day 6:
Doombringer (15) dies
Death (7) has a good Tracker claim
Tracker (14) gets lynched

Updated Rolelist:
Spoiler: Death (7)
Executioner (3)
Vigilante (10)
Sheriff (6)


Night 6:
Vigilante shoots (7) immune
Death kills 10
Death becomes Horseman of Apocalypse
At this point Horseman has pretty much won!
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:34 pm

How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.

No that's too strong.


Sample game shows an average 1kpn
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:57 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.

No that's too strong.


Sample game shows an average 1kpn

I still don't think it's balanced.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:14 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.

No that's too strong.


Sample game shows an average 1kpn

I still don't think it's balanced.


Elaborate

I understand there's a few problems with a couple of the roles. A few slight mechanic changes and things I need to work on. I'm not exactly happy with Succubus for example. But most of the roles are perfectly well balanced.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:21 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.

No that's too strong.


Sample game shows an average 1kpn

I still don't think it's balanced.


Elaborate

I understand there's a few problems with a couple of the roles. A few slight mechanic changes and things I need to work on. I'm not exactly happy with Succubus for example. But most of the roles are perfectly well balanced.

I've already stated that the Jailor/Medusa copies were already too much for this faction.
Think it's better if you give the faction an overall goal as to how to kill others like the Mafia/Coven has.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:36 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
How about this review the faction based on it being in a competitive setup with no more than 5 evils. As that is what I'm going for.

No that's too strong.


Sample game shows an average 1kpn

I still don't think it's balanced.


Elaborate

I understand there's a few problems with a couple of the roles. A few slight mechanic changes and things I need to work on. I'm not exactly happy with Succubus for example. But most of the roles are perfectly well balanced.

I've already stated that the Jailor/Medusa copies were already too much for this faction.
Think it's better if you give the faction an overall goal as to how to kill others like the Mafia/Coven has.


We will never agree about the Jailor thing. Please actually give a reason as to why you think this Jailor will be unbalanced. As I can tell, all you stated was that evil Jailors should be Neutral. Evil Jailor gives you an edge to cc the Jailor, which is balanced. Insta-confirm town roles are not usually balanced. Seeing as it takes a long time to rejail if you kill someone, then it's not that powerful. Rework for the Medusa copy below. Thoughts? Outside of those two roles though. What about the other roles. The Death/Chosen combo has an average of 1kpn in the beginning stage. An Shade/Doom Bringer are neat concepts.

Role Name: Chosen (War)

Abilities:
-During the night you may choose to attack a player
-During the night you may cast a fiery barrier at a fellow Horseman or Acolytes house

Attributes:
-You have one kill
-You may cast three barriers
-You will destroy the will and role of all passive visitors that visit your target
-If a killing role visits your target you will be killed instead.


Notifications:

Special Attributes:
-Will replace (War) if he dies before becoming Horseman of the Apocalypse

Additional Information:
-Could be written better?

Think it's better if you give the faction an overall goal as to how to kill others like the Mafia/Coven has.


Death, Destruction, Apocalypse. The four horsemen want to bring about the end of the world. I don't really understand what you mean. Mafia wants to kill town members, exactly like this faction. What do you mean as in by how to kill others?
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:22 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:We will never agree about the Jailor thing. Please actually give a reason as to why you think this Jailor will be unbalanced. As I can tell, all you stated was that evil Jailors should be Neutral. Evil Jailor gives you an edge to cc the Jailor, which is balanced. Insta-confirm town roles are not usually balanced. Seeing as it takes a long time to rejail if you kill someone, then it's not that powerful. Rework for the Medusa copy below. Thoughts? Outside of those two roles though. What about the other roles. The Death/Chosen combo has an average of 1kpn in the beginning stage. An Shade/Doom Bringer are neat concepts.

Role Name: Chosen (War)

Abilities:
-During the night you may choose to attack a player
-During the night you may cast a fiery barrier at a fellow Horseman or Acolytes house

Attributes:
-You have one kill
-You may cast three barriers
-You will destroy the will and role of all passive visitors that visit your target
-If a killing role visits your target you will be killed instead.


Notifications:

Special Attributes:
-Will replace (War) if he dies before becoming Horseman of the Apocalypse

Additional Information:
-Could be written better?

Think it's better if you give the faction an overall goal as to how to kill others like the Mafia/Coven has.


Death, Destruction, Apocalypse. The four horsemen want to bring about the end of the world. I don't really understand what you mean. Mafia wants to kill town members, exactly like this faction. What do you mean as in by how to kill others?

I'm not sure what it means by passive visitors, but this doesn't do much if it ends up being solo; probably needs another ability.
I don't think any Jailor counterpart will be balanced unless you nerf it or make it easily worked around.

Also I meant that each faction should have a goal:
Town gets rid of evils by lynching/killing. They also slow down evils by protecting themselves from attacks and find evils with investigative roles.
Mafia uses deception, manipulation, and mislynching to get rid of Town. They also can use their kills and voting majority to deal with other factions.
Coven relies on killing and finding their enemies with their investigative abilities. While they have a hard time blending in, they can hide to an extent, along with using other players to their advantage.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:40 am

I want this faction to be more about delaying the town and getting stronger as the days go on. So I am aimming for the faction to have a lot less kill power in the beginning, but more in the late game.

"I'm not sure what it means by passive visitors"
Visitors that are not killing.

but this doesn't do much if it ends up being solo


He does become the next War if War dies before being a Horseman. If War dies as a Horseman and Chosen is still alive, its quite late in the game anyway.
It's all a matter of having a basic 1 target kill role, which a solo member would convert into
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:45 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I want this faction to be more about delaying the town and getting stronger as the days go on. So I am aimming for the faction to have a lot less kill power in the beginning, but more in the late game.

"I'm not sure what it means by passive visitors"
Visitors that are not killing.

but this doesn't do much if it ends up being solo


He does become the next War if War dies before being a Horseman. If War dies as a Horseman and Chosen is still alive, its quite late in the game anyway.
It's all a matter of having a basic 1 target kill role, which a solo member would convert into

I don't like that it promotes to another role, but I'm not sure what else you could give it.
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:56 am

How would you change this faction?
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Re: Horsemen (New Faction!!!)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:51 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:How would you change this faction?

I don't know if I can.
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