Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:03 am

"WW used to be super weak with it appearing suspicious all game. Godfather and Necronomicon wielders should also be innocent to the Sheriff; Godfather is literally Mafioso with Basic defense, Detection immunity, and a different Investigator result."
WW wouldn't be underpowered appearing suspicious all game. Remember most people don't play this game optimally so when people are 1vs14, the win rate is a lot lower. I highly disagree about Godfather and Necro wielders being innocent to Sheriff. Sheriff SHOULD be a threat. Someone outs themselves as Sheriff, then the risk to kill them should be worth it. Most games I ignore Sheriff claims and I win as Mafia. Basic defense is fine with GF. But should GF literally be the same as Mafioso with added benefits? Just because that's the way it is, doesn't make it right

"It's really not a "strong finisher" if like 16 roles can stop it from killing lol.
Also... "miss thing" is LGBTQ+ slang; I didn't call you a woman."

Killing roles (which we discussed changing) and roleblockers pretty much. As if there's gonna be a shit load of them in the game anyway. So you may have 2-3 players who are detrimental to your game, that's why you kill them. The strong finisher point is still valid... once again you're trying to decipher a small part of my argument as to why you're right. At best this role can finish off the game with 3 fatal attacks with one of them being a Powerful Rampage, that's a finisher. Just because it COULD fail, doesn't invalidate my point
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:16 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Killing roles (which we discussed changing) and roleblockers pretty much. As if there's gonna be a shit load of them in the game anyway. So you may have 2-3 players who are detrimental to your game, that's why you kill them. The strong finisher point is still valid... once again you're trying to decipher a small part of my argument as to why you're right. At best this role can finish off the game with 3 fatal attacks with one of them being a Powerful Rampage, that's a finisher. Just because it COULD fail, doesn't invalidate my point

Sal gave good feedback about this role, I don't know why you're choosing to argue with me instead of discussing with someone who likes your role. :roll:
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:20 am

I was writing that previous reply and posted it before I knew he had commented
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:28 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I was writing that previous reply and posted it before I knew he had commented

Sal is female.

Anyways...
I did the tallying:
You have SEVERAL roles that can stop Reaver from functioning.
    - 5 of them can protect (all TPs and GA)
    - 18 of them can attack (Vigi, Vet, All MKs, all NKs, all Coven, Vamp, Pest, Jest)
    - 4 of them roleblock (Escort, Consort, Jailor, Pirate)
    - 4 of the ones I didn't list above have defense (Surv, Exe, Witch, PB)
That's a total of 31 out of 49 roles. 32 if you include Retributionist using dead bodies. Some of these can stop you in multiple ways and most of these roles aren't unique.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:55 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I was writing that previous reply and posted it before I knew he had commented

Sal is female.

Anyways...
I did the tallying:
You have SEVERAL roles that can stop Reaver from functioning.
    - 5 of them can protect (all TPs and GA)
    - 18 of them can attack (Vigi, Vet, All MKs, all NKs, all Coven, Vamp, Pest, Jest)
    - 4 of them roleblock (Escort, Consort, Jailor, Pirate)
    - 4 of the ones I didn't list above have defense (Surv, Exe, Witch, PB)
That's a total of 31 out of 49 roles. 32 if you include Retributionist using dead bodies. Some of these can stop you in multiple ways and most of these roles aren't unique.



TPs are there to protect another target against an attack. But saying TPs down right stop this role from working is a bit harsh. That's just on the chance that TP successfully defends their target. And we also already previously discussed and I agreed with allowing Reavers kills to go through if hes attacked.

In a balanced competitive setup there shouldn't be any more then 1 NK anyhow and there should be very few other Neutrals, if any. You make it seem like such a high number when you say 31 out of 49 roles. But in a real game there would be a limited number of counters.

Also, made it so attacks cannot be healed
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:20 pm

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
I did the tallying:
You have SEVERAL roles that can stop Reaver from functioning.
    - 5 of them can protect (all TPs and GA)
    - 18 of them can attack (Vigi, Vet, All MKs, all NKs, all Coven, Vamp, Pest, Jest)
    - 4 of them roleblock (Escort, Consort, Jailor, Pirate)
    - 4 of the ones I didn't list above have defense (Surv, Exe, Witch, PB)
That's a total of 31 out of 49 roles. 32 if you include Retributionist using dead bodies. Some of these can stop you in multiple ways and most of these roles aren't unique.



TPs are there to protect another target against an attack. But saying TPs down right stop this role from working is a bit harsh. That's just on the chance that TP successfully defends their target. And we also already previously discussed and I agreed with allowing Reavers kills to go through if hes attacked.
I don’t remember you saying that, is it in the original post now?

In a balanced competitive setup there shouldn't be any more then 1 NK anyhow and there should be very few other Neutrals, if any. You make it seem like such a high number when you say 31 out of 49 roles. But in a real game there would be a limited number of counters.
In Ranked, you’re more limited but at least 5 of the roles will stop you each game. In AA the chances to interact roles that counter you go way up.

Also, made it so attacks cannot be healed

That solves one of the issues with Reaver, but I think the other changes that Sal suggested would help a lot.
Also you *need* Investigator results for this role.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:00 am

In Ranked, you’re more limited but at least 5 of the roles will stop you each game. In AA the chances to interact roles that counter you go way up.


Yes but you can say that about most roles. In ranked its just Jailor, Escorts, Consorts that are hard-counters to the role. But not as much as a Hard-Counter as they are to Arsonist and you certainly won't have at least 5 of them stopping you each game. There's also other issues with Escort and Jailor which make them unbalanced roles. Still I don't feel like the role should have roleblock immunity, I feel that's a trait for just Serial Killers.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:05 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
In Ranked, you’re more limited but at least 5 of the roles will stop you each game. In AA the chances to interact roles that counter you go way up.


Yes but you can say that about most roles. In ranked its just Jailor, Escorts, Consorts that are hard-counters to the role. But not as much as a Hard-Counter as they are to Arsonist and you certainly won't have at least 5 of them stopping you each game. There's also other issues with Escort and Jailor which make them unbalanced roles. Still I don't feel like the role should have roleblock immunity, I feel that's a trait for just Serial Killers.

I don’t think bloodlust level should change if it’s roleblocked.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby Cavespider17 » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:14 am

WaveAqualei wrote:I don’t think bloodlust level should change if it’s roleblocked.


I agree with this, it literally rewards the role for doing nothing. Which is unbalanced.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:43 pm

Cavespider17 wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:I don’t think bloodlust level should change if it’s roleblocked.


I agree with this, it literally rewards the role for doing nothing. Which is unbalanced.


Rewards the role? Lol what are you on about? It's a counter for the role, read the role properly.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:15 pm

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Cavespider17 wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:I don’t think bloodlust level should change if it’s roleblocked.


I agree with this, it literally rewards the role for doing nothing. Which is unbalanced.


Rewards the role? Lol what are you on about? It's a counter for the role, read the role properly.

They were wrong about it rewarding the time but tbh it shouldn’t go down if roleblocked. I’d rather it go up one or stay the same.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby Cavespider17 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:22 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Rewards the role? Lol what are you on about? It's a counter for the role, read the role properly.


Okay I would like to firstly say I did read it Properly, and it does reward the role if it tiers down while roleblocked. See below for explaination. Please stop being so hostile whenever someone criticises a flaw in your role. No one likes criticism (me especially and yes it does suck when someone criticises your stuff and you have to fight for it). I get it, it is hard to take criticism but remember we are trying to help you.

Stop it changing if roleblocked or what happens is people might stall to avoid detection, or they can get severely punished for their actions, so it would reward doing nothing if you don't want to risk being de-tiered.

Also in regards to your Multi-Attacks do they all go off at the same time? Or are they done in a specific order? Because if they are done in a specific order that counters all TP completely. IE: If you choose 3 people the first is a rampage but that doesn't matter - because if it is done in a specific order (which is implied by one attack being a rampage and the others not) you would target TP for attack 1 and 2 and then a high value townie for attack 3, killing the TP and then your target. Think of it as a timeline I guess.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:00 pm

"Read the role properly" is not being hostile. Shouldn't take things the wrong way, because either "Lol what are you on about" or "read the role properly" should be taken as being hostile. Accusing me of doing so in that condescending way, will definitely change my attitude towards you.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby Cavespider17 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:40 pm

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:"Read the role properly" is not being hostile. Shouldn't take things the wrong way, because either "Lol what are you on about" or "read the role properly" should be taken as being hostile. Accusing me of doing so in that condescending way, will definitely change my attitude towards you.


Not Condesending at all - As We are literally trying to help here or we wouldn't be posting. You can't just go around and tell people to "Read it Properly" because they have - the issue is maybe it isn't clear enough? You should either explain something, or try see where they are coming from.

- Either way, the role doesn't function as a well balanced role should as per my comments at the end. Also you didn't answer the questions, so I reitterate them:

Cavespider17 wrote:Also in regards to your Multi-Attacks do they all go off at the same time? Or are they done in a specific order? Because if they are done in a specific order that counters all TP completely. IE: If you choose 3 people the first is a rampage but that doesn't matter - because if it is done in a specific order (which is implied by one attack being a rampage and the others not) you would target TP for attack 1 and 2 and then a high value townie for attack 3, killing the TP and then your target. Think of it as a timeline I guess.
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Re: Reaver (Neutral Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:41 pm

Saying "read the role properly" is not being hostile. It's your own problem if you take it that way.

Also in regards to your Multi-Attacks do they all go off at the same time? Or are they done in a specific order? Because if they are done in a specific order that counters all TP completely. IE: If you choose 3 people the first is a rampage but that doesn't matter - because if it is done in a specific order (which is implied by one attack being a rampage and the others not) you would target TP for attack 1 and 2 and then a high value townie for attack 3, killing the TP and then your target. Think of it as a timeline I guess.


Now you're just complicating the role. All attacks would happen under the same night sequences, so anyone being healed or protected, would still be healed and protected. The order of your targets is only relevant if you hit someone with defense. Your first target has defense, then your bloodlust drops and following attacks fail. A Werewolf Rampages at a Doctors house and a Serial Killer kills a Vigilante. The Doctor is healing the Vigilante, the heals still successful. Look at it, like that.

- Either way, the role doesn't function as a well balanced role should as per my comments at the end


Has an average of 1KPN and has mostly the same counters as Arsonist. How's that not balanced?
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