Druid (Town Killing)

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Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:30 pm

Role Name: Druid


Role Alignment: Town Support/Killing - Unique

Abilities:
At night transform into one of your animal forms

Bear
-Visit a player and grant them and yourself a Powerful defense
Tiger
-You may choose to attack a player dealing them a powerful attack.
Eagle
-Grants vision of the roles and names of all players who visit you.

Attributes:
You may only use each form once
Whilst in Eagle form you have roleblock and control immunity.

Mechanics:
A Witch will force a non-acting druid to use Tiger form and attack someone.
A Witch will always force a Bear into Tiger form to attack someone, unless Tiger form has already been used.
Last edited by TheTraitorofSalem on Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:35 pm

Might be better as a Neutral Evil role; I don't believe that Town should have any JoaT roles.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:37 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:Might be better as a Neutral Evil role; I don't believe that Town should have any JoaT roles.


JoaT = Jailor
Druids are usually Loreful good. The Bear and Eagle abillity wouldn't work as Neutral Evil either
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:31 pm

This having a total of 5 uses of strong night abilities seems a bit much, considering most games last until day 4/5 theirs no real holding or waiting for later really.

I actually am in favour of JOAT town roles if they're kept without consistent kills, Jailor isn't a good example imo (and isn't balanced).
A good example of a JOAT is current Retri actually. (or something like trauma Patient which id consider adaptable like a joat).
The claim that JOATs being town are automatically broken is bad.

I feel like the main issue is that this role is easily confirmable and we need less easy confirmations.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:39 pm

Could limit each ability to only one use.

How would I make this less confirmable?
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:51 am

The claim that JOATs being town are automatically broken is bad.

I agree actually. I don't think they're broken but JoaT Town roles are usually better off by splitting up their abilities into more Town roles.
Town roles that 3-4 abilities that can only be used once aren't super powerful or fun to play.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:40 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
The claim that JOATs being town are automatically broken is bad.

I agree actually. I don't think they're broken but JoaT Town roles are usually better off by splitting up their abilities into more Town roles.
Town roles that 3-4 abilities that can only be used once aren't super powerful or fun to play.


I think we have a very different perspective on what's fun to play. Any multi-action role is more exciting to play for most people, than basic single-target roles like Doctor. Besides, you believe a role where you aimlessly target people and that's your only objective, is somehow fun.

There's actually nothing that makes this role underpowered like you said. It has a one use powerful attack; that has absolutely no down sides, a very powerful defense ability and a useful Lookout type abillity.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:23 am

I think we have a very different perspective on what's fun to play. Any multi-action role is more exciting to play for most people, than basic single-target roles like Doctor.
I actually enjoy most of the ToS roles we have, including Doctor. Roles that are more complicated are harder to create good plays with (such as Arsonist UI things). The easier a role is to understand, the easier it is to play it and fake claim it which makes your success rate higher. Just because our opinions about roles are apples to oranges doesn't mean one is better than the other.

Besides, you believe a role where you aimlessly target people and that's your only objective, is somehow fun.
If you're referring to Pickpocket, I said it was more fun than Survivor. I didn't say how fun the role would be.

There's actually nothing that makes this role underpowered like you said. It has a one use powerful attack; that has absolutely no down sides, a very powerful defense ability and a useful Lookout type abillity.
I didn't say that for this role; I said it for general JoaT roles. The main reason why JoaT roles are underpowered is because most of them have cooldowns or are just generally slow.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:37 am

Arsonist isn't complicated, a monkey could understand it. Arsonist is simple, you douse, you douse and then you burn anyone whos doused. The reason its complicated has more to do with the fact that people suck at this game, especially when they are 1v14. Not like Arsonist is any harder to win as then Serial Killer.

I didn't say that for this role; I said it for general JoaT roles. The main reason why JoaT roles are underpowered is because most of them have cooldowns or are just generally slow.

Yes but this role is not underpowered, so why bring it up?
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:38 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Arsonist isn't complicated, a monkey could understand it. Arsonist is simple, you douse, you douse and then you burn anyone whos doused. The reason its complicated has more to do with the fact that people suck at this game, especially when they are 1v14. Not like Arsonist is any harder to win as then Serial Killer.

I didn't say that for this role; I said it for general JoaT roles. The main reason why JoaT roles are underpowered is because most of them have cooldowns or are just generally slow.

Yes but this role is not underpowered, so why bring it up?

I didn't say Arsonist was complicated, I said the UI for Dousing was. In Ranked (with the NE + NE rolelist), Arsonist won a lot less frequently than Serial Killer did. Mafia could kill Arsonist's targets slowing him down even more, whereas Serial Killer had an easier time working around everyone.
In AA, Serial Killers are the only NK role that can't kill one another. They have a harder time finding each other, but still.

I think the word I'm looking for is "useless", not underpowered. This role will become useless after it uses all of its abilities, which doesn't make sense for Town (unless it's a killing role/self ability). The limiting on your kill ability makes sense, however it does not make sense for the Investigative Ability. The protective ability is a strange overall, it's not awful but personally I don't really like it since it's equivalent to Doc healing someone and healing themselves in one night.
Last edited by WaveAqualei on Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:23 am

As Soulshader stated previously, most games only last 4/5 nights, making multiple use abilities overpowered. So you shouldn't be wasting important abilities like this on N1. So lets say you kill someone N2, use your Eagle abillity N3 and then defend someone N4. At best you kill one evil, successfully protect someone and yourself and catch an evil visiting you.

It's mindboggling that you actually consider this role "useless" LOL... Far from being a useless role. Wait doesn't Vigilante become useless once its used all its bullets or killed a town member? Just because the role has limited uses, does not make it useless, far from it.

Truth be told, I originally had the Bear ability as protecting its target and all people visiting its target, would that be more to your liking?
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:35 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:As Soulshader stated previously, most games only last 4/5 nights, making multiple use abilities overpowered. So you shouldn't be wasting important abilities like this on N1. So lets say you kill someone N2, use your Eagle abillity N3 and then defend someone N4. At best you kill one evil, successfully protect someone and yourself and catch an evil visiting you.

It's mindboggling that you actually consider this role "useless" LOL... Far from being a useless role. Wait doesn't Vigilante become useless once its used all its bullets or killed a town member? Just because the role has limited uses, does not make it useless, far from it.

It seems you're unfashionably blinded by your own arrogance, so I'll repeat myself.
me (obviously) wrote:This role will become useless after it uses all of its abilities, which doesn't make sense for Town (unless it's a killing role/self ability).

This goes towards your arguments for both Druid and Vigilante.
In my opinion, the easiest way to make a balanced JoaT Town role is to keep all of its ability in the same subalignment (either all Investigative, Protective, or Support/other abilities).

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Truth be told, I originally had the Bear ability as protecting its target and all people visiting its target, would that be more to your liking?

I don't think Bear is the biggest problem with this role, but moreso Tiger. I think a Rampage heal would make this role better if you kept it as a one-time use, but Tiger is what is weighing it down. Eagle feels out of place as well but I don't think Eagle is bad.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:44 am

It seems you're unfashionably blinded by your own arrogance, so I'll repeat myself.


You brought this up and implied that the role was useless specifically because it becomes that way when it uses it abilities up. But the role is far from useless, so why start the argument. You use up your abilities, you become useless boohoo. Most games only like 4/5 days. Sheriff useless when 3 Mafia (no GF) have died, Vigilante useless if he kills a town and hes so useless he kills himself, Veteran useless when he uses his alerts, Retributionist useless in some games when he doesn't have the right roles to use.

It seems you're just stating some of your arguments for no reason.

In my opinion, the easiest way to make a balanced JoaT Town role is to keep all of its ability in the same subalignment


And your opinion is wrong in this case, as keeping it in its own subalignment doesn't exactly make it a JoaT. A Vigilante/Veteran combo is one of the most basic JoaT roles I can think of. 2 Kills/2 Alerts, but then you're just morphing other roles which you shouldn't really do. And how would you make a JoaT Town Investigative role. TI roles are quite simple Sheriff detects evils, Invest detects possible roles, Lookout sees visitors. It should not go much beyond that. Same with Town Protective. You heal, you kill an attacker, simple, but no role should do both.

I don't think Bear is the biggest problem with this role, but moreso Tiger. I think a Rampage heal would make this role better but Tiger is what is weighing it down. Eagle feels out of place as well but I don't think Eagle is bad.


Druids can shapeshift into various different animals, so it actually makes sense for all the abilities to be varied. Eagle is not an apex predator like a Tiger.

Please explain why Tiger is weighing it down.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:09 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
It seems you're unfashionably blinded by your own arrogance, so I'll repeat myself.


You brought this up and implied that the role was useless specifically because it becomes that way when it uses it abilities up. But the role is far from useless, so why start the argument. You use up your abilities, you become useless boohoo. Most games only like 4/5 days. Sheriff useless when 3 Mafia (no GF) have died, Vigilante useless if he kills a town and hes so useless he kills himself, Veteran useless when he uses his alerts, Retributionist useless in some games when he doesn't have the right roles to use.

It seems you're just stating some of your arguments for no reason.

You can't say all roles are useless just because of a rolelist that a role is in.
Spy is useless in Dracula's Palace, Sheriff is nearly useless in Lovers, Doctor is useless in an all Arsonist game. You can literally say any of these for almost any role... you're clutching at straws now.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
In my opinion, the easiest way to make a balanced JoaT Town role is to keep all of its ability in the same subalignment


And your opinion is wrong in this case, as keeping it in its own subalignment doesn't exactly make it a JoaT. A Vigilante/Veteran combo is one of the most basic JoaT roles I can think of. 2 Kills/2 Alerts, but then you're just morphing other roles which you shouldn't really do. And how would you make a JoaT Town Investigative role. TI roles are quite simple Sheriff detects evils, Invest detects possible roles, Lookout sees visitors. It should not go much beyond that. Same with Town Protective. You heal, you kill an attacker, simple, but no role should do both.

As SoulShader stated above, Retri is a JoaT role to an extent, so is Trapper in my opinion since it can protect/find roles/kill.
I'm not the best with coming up with unique TI roles, but I'm sure you can have one Investigative ability work on odd nights, and another one work on even nights.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
I don't think Bear is the biggest problem with this role, but moreso Tiger. I think a Rampage heal would make this role better but Tiger is what is weighing it down. Eagle feels out of place as well but I don't think Eagle is bad.


Druids can shapeshift into various different animals, so it actually makes sense for all the abilities to be varied. Eagle is not an apex predator like a Tiger.

Please explain why Tiger is weighing it down.

Tiger is what is making this role unbalanced. It has no guilt and instantly confirms itself, even if its target is Town.
Eagles are definitely strong enough to kill a person, but they never have the intentions to. Given that the Druid is a shapeshifter I'm positive they could kill as an Eagle.
Also there are like... a gazillion other animals you can use, you don't have to stay true to Tiger.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:23 am

You can't say all roles are useless just because of a rolelist that a role is in.
Spy is useless in Dracula's Palace, Sheriff is nearly useless in Lovers, Doctor is useless in an all Arsonist game. You can literally say any of these for almost any role... you're clutching at straws now.


Narcissitic arguing and nitpicking to make your point. I mention that Retributionist is useless in some games when it doesn't get the right roles (small solution to is is to allow it to use more town roles). But I did not say that all roles are ueseless because of a rolelist that a role is in. Not once, did I state that. But you decipher a small part of what I said and make it out like I implied it, when clearly I did not.

Tiger is what is making this role unbalanced. It has no guilt and instantly confirms itself, even if its target is Town.
Eagles are definitely strong enough to kill a person, but they never have the intentions to. Given that the Druid is a shapeshifter I'm positive they could kill as an Eagle.

Also there are like... a gazillion other animals you can use, you don't have to stay true to Tiger.

Guilt is unbalanced. Instantly confirms itself = no. There's a thing called cc. Jailor instantly confirms themselves, that's unbalanced. Many animals can kill humans, most will cower from doing so. Eagle is still not an Apex predator like a Tiger. I don't give a fuck if a Druid would be powerful enough to kill someone as an Eagle. Still trying to make your point by manipulating the argument and creating random scenarios.
Yes but a big cat, a bear and some sort of bird are the most common types of druids
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:37 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
You can't say all roles are useless just because of a rolelist that a role is in.
Spy is useless in Dracula's Palace, Sheriff is nearly useless in Lovers, Doctor is useless in an all Arsonist game. You can literally say any of these for almost any role... you're clutching at straws now.


Narcissitic arguing and nitpicking to make your point. I mention that Retributionist is useless in some games when it doesn't get the right roles (small solution to is is to allow it to use more town roles). But I did not say that all roles are ueseless because of a rolelist that a role is in. Not once, did I state that. But you decipher a small part of what I said and make it out like I implied it, when clearly I did not.

I don't think you understand the definition of narcissism but that's something you can look up yourself.

All of your arguments were saying that Sheriff and whatnot were all useless after certain circumstances met in Ranked. That's how it came across to me.

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Tiger is what is making this role unbalanced. It has no guilt and instantly confirms itself, even if its target is Town.
Eagles are definitely strong enough to kill a person, but they never have the intentions to. Given that the Druid is a shapeshifter I'm positive they could kill as an Eagle.
Also there are like... a gazillion other animals you can use, you don't have to stay true to Tiger.


Guilt is unbalanced. Instantly confirms itself = no. There's a thing called cc. Jailor instantly confirms themselves, that's unbalanced. Many animals can kill humans, most will cower from doing so. Eagle is still not an Apex predator like a Tiger. I don't give a fuck if a Druid would be powerful enough to kill someone as an Eagle. Still trying to make your point by manipulating the argument and creating random scenarios.
Yes but a big cat, a bear and some sort of bird are the most common types of druids

Guilt is not unbalanced, it makes Vigilante and Jailor have to think about who they decide to attack. It also counters players trying to actively gamethrow.
I still don't think you should have a direct attack as one of your abilities for this role.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:52 am

guilt is not unbalanced, it makes Vigilante and Jailor have to think about who they decide to attack. It also counters players trying to actively gamethrow.

It seems that we're both arguing about things that aren't even about this role's concept anymore; unless you have something to say about it I'm not going to continue to talk on this topic.


Guilt is 100% unbalanced. It swings the game in the evils favour from one person making a mistake. Having it to counter gamethrow isn't a valid excuse, that's what we have a report system for. And perhaps if this game was more fun, then maybe people wouldn't gamethrow as often???

Then provide valid feedback about the role, rather then arguing about other roles in the game and nitpicking on things.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:54 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
guilt is not unbalanced, it makes Vigilante and Jailor have to think about who they decide to attack. It also counters players trying to actively gamethrow.

It seems that we're both arguing about things that aren't even about this role's concept anymore; unless you have something to say about it I'm not going to continue to talk on this topic.


Guilt is 100% unbalanced. It swings the game in the evils favour from one person making a mistake. Having it to counter gamethrow isn't a valid excuse, that's what we have a report system for. And perhaps if this game was more fun, then maybe people wouldn't gamethrow as often???

Then provide valid feedback about the role, rather then arguing about other roles in the game and nitpicking on things.

Guilt is not unbalanced?
I'll be honest that I think guilt on Vigilante is too harsh, they should just lose its bullets instead of dying.
But guilt confirms you, and you either die or you can jail other people as Jailor.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:04 am

Its definitely unbalanced, the whole games unbalanced. Roles should be balanced to their own sub-alignments. Jailor should not be a a powerful role that causes the town to lose if hes afk, leaves or is a thrower. All town members should equally contribute to the game. Town Killings are useful to target people who appear sus or people who someone else has a lead on. Vigilante and Jailor should be equally balanced (Veteran as well). Witches should not be in the game to counter Vigilante. THere should not be this meta of instantly lynching all TK findings D2 because of Witch and the off chance that they could be Mafioso... it's extremely unbalanced. Vigilante should be the powerful kill role who should be allowed to make a mistake. Jailor should be the more investitive type role that has less kills, but when they kill their kills are unstoppable. Remove the Jailor targets defense as well.

Guilt confirms you how? You say "oh im the dying Vigi" and then you're gone the next night. Stupid concept. Instantly confirming towns like that is also a problem. Mafia members should be able to cc the Vigilante kill!
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:14 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Its definitely unbalanced, the whole games unbalanced. Roles should be balanced to their own sub-alignments. Jailor should not be a a powerful role that causes the town to lose if hes afk, leaves or is a thrower. All town members should equally contribute to the game. Town Killings are useful to target people who appear sus or people who someone else has a lead on. Vigilante and Jailor should be equally balanced (Veteran as well). Witches should not be in the game to counter Vigilante. THere should not be this meta of instantly lynching all TK findings D2 because of Witch and the off chance that they could be Mafioso... it's extremely unbalanced. Vigilante should be the powerful kill role who should be allowed to make a mistake. Jailor should be the more investitive type role that has less kills, but when they kill their kills are unstoppable. Remove the Jailor targets defense as well.

Guilt confirms you how? You say "oh im the dying Vigi" and then you're gone the next night. Stupid concept. Instantly confirming towns like that is also a problem. Mafia members should be able to cc the Vigilante kill!

If you think the game is unbalanced then maybe you should fix the pre-existing roles rather than adding new ones. If the game is unbalanced, why are you trying to make a role that works well in the game? Wouldn't that make this role unbalanced as well?
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:16 am

I'm trying to make a balanced role for this game in general. I am trying to get this role to a normal power level which a town member should have. This game is unbalanced because of Jailor, swingy set-ups, outdated metas, weak mechanics and excess evils in ranked to deal with leavers and bad players. 6vs9 does not create a lot of room for error.

Good idea then. Ill make a post about role balancing.
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Re: Druid (Town Killing)

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:18 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:I'm trying to make a balanced role for this game in general. I am trying to get this role to a normal power level which a town member should have. This game is unbalanced because of Jailor, swingy set-ups, outdated metas, weak mechanics and excess evils in ranked to deal with leavers and bad players. 6vs9 does not create a lot of room for error.

Good idea then. Ill make a post about role balancing.

It's recommended you put role balancing here: viewforum.php?f=7
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