The Coroner (Town Investigative)

[Cabohhh]

Role Name:
The Coroner

Role Alignment:
Town Investigative

Abilities:
Target one player in the graveyard, and perform an autopsy.

Attributes:
You will learn if an action that can be determined happened to your target on every night.
You will learn their true alignment if they are Cleaned, Forged, or Stoned.
You will get only get one message per night, even if an action happened to someone multiple times a night.
You will learn if your target has already been autopsied.

Things you can determine from your autopsy:
Spoiler: -If your target was revealed by an Investigative role (Including all revealing roles excluding Witch/Coven Leader)
-If your target was roleblocked
-If your target was controlled
-If your target was healed
-If your target was attacked
-If your target was jailed
-If your target was poisoned
-If your target was dueled by a Pirate
-If your target was doused
-If your target was converted into another role
-If your target was infected (If true, you will be infected as well)
-If your target was hexed
-If your target was framed
-If your target was reanimated

Notifications:
Coroner:
You have decided to autopsy [Player].
You have decided to autopsy [Player] instead.
You have changed your mind.
[Player] was [Action]ed on Night [#].
You noticed a Y-incision on [Player]'s chest. Your target has been autopsied before.

Goal:
To lynch every criminal and evildoer.

WinCon:
Standard Town WinCon

Special Attributes:
Control Immunity.

Investigator Results:
Sheriff: You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.
Investigator: Doctor/Disguiser/Serial Killer/Potion Master/Coroner
Consigliere: Your target uses pathology to determine issues with their subjects. They must be a Coroner!

[Ezradekezra]

-snip-

You forgot GA turned Surv and BMer preventing people from claiming stuff

Also, evils won't necessarily claim their results and some people just don't claim them as any alignment

[Cabohhh]

-snip-

You forgot GA turned Surv and BMer preventing people from claiming stuff

Also, evils won't necessarily claim their results and some people just don't claim them as any alignment

It is still totally possible none of those roles will be in the game.

I'm not entirely sure why Coroner would be checking evils (unless there's no Town deaths) but I'll grant you that. Not entirely sure what utility it would have though.

If you don't claim your results, or write them in your will, you are gamethrowing imo.

All of your points are made assuming your target is town. This role would be better in All Any, but there are one main application for the Coroner in ranked.

Coroner's purpose to puncture fake claims and gain information.

I'll propose two scenarios, one in Ranked, and one in All Any.

1) Let's say that Cotton was a Mafioso claiming Sheriff who checked Giles the night they died. If you autopsy Giles and it doesn't say that Giles was ever checked by an Investigative role, the Coroner would learn that Cotton was lying, and would therefore oust Cotton as an evil.

2) Betty is a Arsonist. She has been infected, attacked, and controlled. Betty is lynched at the gallows D3. A Coroner would autopsy Betty and reveal that there was a Plaguebearer, another attacking role, and a Coven Leader. The Coroner would now know that one attacking role and the Coven Leader are now doused.

Dueled is for Pirate's duel btw.
I also noticed that Healing isn't up there, so I've added it.

[Cabohhh]

New Changes:

-Coroners will learn if their target has been autopsied on a previous night.
-Coroners will learn if their target was reanimated during the three night period.
-Coroners will learn if their target was framed.
-Coroners will learn if their target was hexed.
-Removed the function that allowed dead players to know if they had been autopsied.

[Cabohhh]

I’m ok with this role in a gamemode where there are no flips and players do not receive feedback of any kind. Not in Ranked or even AA.

Coroner can determine how many times it happened to their target. If two people claimed to have checked your target, but it says that they were only checked once, you'd have a 1 for 1.

At any rate, Coroner does more than just confirming and puncturing investigative role claims. Coroner can detect the presence of certain "silent" roles in the game that could be a threat further in the game, and now that I've added frames and hexes, it just adds to its utility.

[Cabohhh]

It feels really niche. In most cases, I would rather have a Sheriff that could check those players directly, or an Invest to deduce their claims.

I really like the idea of the Coroner in the Clue Variant, and potentially as Coven Exclusive, however. I’d like to test it in Clue Variant first.

You act like niche is bad lmao

anyways clue variant won't work, it's functionally broke (like me)

[Cabohhh]

It feels really niche. In most cases, I would rather have a Sheriff that could check those players directly, or an Invest to deduce their claims.

I really like the idea of the Coroner in the Clue Variant, and potentially as Coven Exclusive, however. I’d like to test it in Clue Variant first.

You act like niche is bad lmao

anyways clue variant won't work, it's functionally broke (like me)

Filling a niche is good. A role that you would prefer to be another role EXCEPT in a cetain scenario isn't good.

Clue Variant is just flipless. Flipless modes can and have worked before, if you personally don't like them...well, I can't force you to play a game you don't like any more than you can force me to play Classic.

has a flipless mode worked in tos tho

[Cabohhh]

Nobody’s ever tried. Doesn’t mean it won’t work.

then by all means try, but it'll flounder

[Cabohhh]

time to watch the view numbers skyrocket

[Ichbinderubermensch]

So a worse medium that occupies a TI slot?

[Cabohhh]

So a worse medium that occupies a TI slot?

lmao did you read the role? waht-

It is not Medium. This role doesn't rely on chat. This role can do things Medium can't (like, for example, reveal hidden roles). This role isn't instantly confirmable. This role can confirm Retributionist, one of the hardest roles to confirm without a BG or Vigilante.

So, no, not "a worse medium that occupies a TI slot".

[Ichbinderubermensch]

So a worse medium that occupies a TI slot?

lmao did you read the role? waht-

It is not Medium. This role doesn't rely on chat. This role can do things Medium can't (like, for example, reveal hidden roles). This role isn't instantly confirmable. This role can confirm Retributionist, one of the hardest roles to confirm without a BG or Vigilante.

So, no, not "a worse medium that occupies a TI slot".

That's because you don't understand the job of Medium in a RC game.

In the context of a Ranked Classic game (with a fixed role list and players don't leave/go afk when they die), what information can a Medium obtain?
> The role and will of a forged/cleaned Townie.
> The Feedback from the night the Townie died and any previous night.
> Any special information the Townie shared with specific players (whispers and Jailor chat)
> The presence of other Mediums.

In the context of a Ranked Classic game, what information would a Coroner obtain?
> The role of a forged/cleaned Player
> The Feedback from the night the Player died and the 2 previous nights.
> Know if the Player was visited by a TI, Framer, Consig or Witch the night they died and the 2 previous nights.
> The presence of other Coroners.

It'd basically the same info most of the time. The only real difference from Medium, is that a Coroner
+ Can get the role of a forged/cleaned NE/Mafia (situational information since this almost never happens).
+ Can only get the Feedback from the 2 previous nights a Townie died (useless information as Kirize12 said since most Townies will post their feedback or share it with Jailor) or the Feedback from the night a NE/Mafia died and the 2 previous nights. (useless or situational information at best since that Feedback would've been generated by the visit of another Townie and again most Townies will post their feedback or share it with Jailor).
+ Can know if the Player was visited by a TI, Ret, Framer, Consig or Witch the night they died and the 2 previous nights. (situational information at best. TIs visit except from LO are usually posted in their results. Ret will post their visits if they used a TI. Framer and Consig visits will be posted in Spy's Mv results. Witch visit gets announced by Townies, and so on...).
+ The presence of other Coroners (situational information).
- Can be rb'ed
- Needs to survive to post their results

Also, in comparison with other TIs, Coroner can't provide any information D2 since they need dead Players and thus perform better late game (exactly when TIs become less useful except for LO).
If both of your TIs are Coroners and the RTs aren't other different variant of TIs, Town will be blind D2.
A 5 Coroner game will be a guarantee disaster for Town on the same par as the dreadful 5 Spy game.

In a nutshell, I'd say your role is
> A TI with no results N1
> Their ability would normally get the same information as a Med (and we all know how much players trust Med's feedback) and extremely situational information.

Perhaps in an AA, Custom or Coven it can be more useful (dunno honestly), but for Ranked Classic it would be a TI Medium that can be RB'ed.

[Cabohhh]

So a worse medium that occupies a TI slot?

lmao did you read the role? waht-

It is not Medium. This role doesn't rely on chat. This role can do things Medium can't (like, for example, reveal hidden roles). This role isn't instantly confirmable. This role can confirm Retributionist, one of the hardest roles to confirm without a BG or Vigilante.

So, no, not "a worse medium that occupies a TI slot".

That's because you don't understand the job of Medium in a RC game.

You didn't understand to follow ToS's rules and got banned so you aren't really in a position to tell me what I understand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To say that they're worse or the same is just moronic.

Coroner doesn't rely on people staying in the game after death (Which is one of the peeves of Medium). Coroner doesn't rely on anyone to give information. Coroner cannot learn their target's role.

All your points are if your target is town, at any rate. Refer to the comments above.

Clearly I'm doing a good job if it's been voted into TG so

[Ichbinderubermensch]

"Coroner doesn't rely on people staying in the game after death (Which is one of the peeves of Medium). Coroner doesn't rely on anyone to give information."
But that's not a flaw from the role itself. It's a flaw from the players.
(Once again) in a Ranked Classic game (where players can't leave and Town players will stay in case there's a Medium to give them their entire feedback if necessary), a Medium can offer more than a Coroner.
I'm not talking about HOW they get their information (yes, I agree. Coroner and Medium use different methods to get their info), but WHAT information they can get and, in that regard, they get the same information (with substantial differences in favour of medium).

"Coroner cannot learn their target's role."
What did you meant by "You will learn their action if they are Forged.", then? Won't knowing the action of their target's night ability be enough information to deduce their role since most roles perform unique actions or you were refering to something else by "their action"?
Maybe the wording of the attributes mislead me.

Attributes:
- You will learn what happened to them that night and the two previous nights before their death.
- You will learn if your target was visited by a Town Investigative, Consigliere, Framer, Hex Master, Arsonist, Pestilence or Vampire that night or the two previous nights before their death.
- You will learn if your target's corpse has already been autopsied or reanimated.

What do you think about this wording? Would it still be accurate or fitting to your role?
I'm assuming that "You will learn what happened to them" is going to be exactly like a spy's bug. In that case, these would be all the possible results Coroner could get in a RC game

>TI's interactions
- Your target was visited by a Sheriff sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was visited by a Investigator sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was visited by a Lookout sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was visited by a Spy sometime within two nights before they died!
- You noticed an incision on your target's corpse. Your target has been autopsied before!

>TP's interactions
- Your target's target was attacked sometime within two nights before they died!
- A Bodyguard attacked your target but someone nursed them back to health sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was attacked but someone fought off their attacker sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was attacked but their bulletproof vest saved them sometime within two nights before they died!

>TK's interactions
- Your target was jailed sometime within two nights before they died.
- Your target shot someone sometime within two nights before they died, but their defense was too strong!

>TS's interactions
- Someone occupied your target's night. They were role blocked sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was transported to another location sometime within two nights before they died.
- You noticed decayment on your target's corpse. Your target has been visited by a Retributionist or a Necromancer before!

>>>MK's interactions
- Your target attacked someone sometime within two nights before they died, but their defense was too strong!

>>>MS's interactions
- Someone threatened to reveal your target's secrets. They were blackmailed sometime within two nights before they died!
- Your target was visited by a Consigliere sometime within two nights before they died!

>MD's interactions
- Your target was visited by a Framer sometime within two nights before they died!

>NE's interactions
- Your target was controlled by a Witch sometime within two nights before they died!

>Immunities' interactions
- Someone attacked your target sometime within two nights before they died, but their defense was too strong!
- Someone tried to role block your target sometime within two nights before they died but they were immune!
- A Witch tried to control your target sometime within two nights before they died but they were immune!

Which one of these results Med can't get and will be useful to Town?
Coroner is going to have a bloated will full of situational/useless information Town will already know most of the time or that other roles can get (i.e. MEDIUM).
Guaranteed no info D2 as TI.
Results can be easily faked and are extremely vague.
Can be Rb'ed.
Needs to survive to post their results.

If it has some utility in AA or Coven, fine... but, in Ranked Classic, it'll be a pretty underwhelming role.

[Cabohhh]

"Coroner doesn't rely on people staying in the game after death (Which is one of the peeves of Medium). Coroner doesn't rely on anyone to give information."
But that's not a flaw from the role itself. It's a flaw from the players.

It's still a flaw for the role. It's useless if everyone leaves, and if a significant majority of the town leaves, then you'll know that there's probably no medium. If the presence of a role can be detected by if dead players are staying, then it's flawed.

"Coroner cannot learn their target's role."
What did you meant by "You will learn their action if they are Forged.", then? Won't knowing the action of their target's night ability be enough information to deduce their role since most roles perform unique actions or you were refering to something else by "their action"?

Usually yes, but you won't technically learn their exact role. Ofc, most of the time you would be able to deduce it, but in a few scenarios there's no guarantee that you learn roles. (For example, all attacking roles will come up as attacking roles.)

I'm assuming that "You will learn what happened to them" is going to be exactly like a spy's bug.
Which one of these results Med can't get and will be useful to Town?

Not a spy bug. If an action that falls under things that can be determined, you'll get that message. (ie. "Your target was checked by an investigative role within two nights before their death.")
Being able to check if a target was checked makes claiming Investigative roles more risky for evils. Medium cannot deduce if their target was checked by an investigative role.

Guaranteed no info D2 as TI.

That's not really that awful. Ofc, being reliant on deaths can be annoying, but if no one is dying, chances are that someone evil is getting lynched, and then you can autopsy them to see if they were controlled, checked, healed, etc. to confirm (or oust) other people.

Results can be easily faked and are extremely vague.

It's almost like not being easily confirmable in a Mafia-esque game is necessary???

Sheriff, Spy, Investigator, Psychic, Doctor, Bodyguard, Medium, Retributionist are also examples of roles that are vague and easy claims. The game needs easy claims. It's the whole damn point of the game.

Can be Rb'ed.

So? It's a TI, should I make a Town Investigative role NOT RB-able?

Needs to survive to post their results.

It's a TI. They all need to survive to post.

[Cabohhh]

New Changes:

-Coroner can no longer tell if their target had an action happen to them multiple times a night.
-Coroner no longer has the three-day timeframe.
-Coroner will now learn their target's true alignment if they were stoned, cleaned, or forged.