Spy Rework

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

Abilities:
-Each night sneak into a players house
-Place a bug at a players house

Attributes:
Sneaking into a players house
-When you sneak into a player's house you may choose to place a bug
-You will be aware of if your target was at home or not
-You will be informed of any non-town roles that visit your target


Bugging a Player
-Targets house will remain bugged
-You can only have 3 players houses bugged at a time
-You must sneak back into a players house to remove a bug
-At the end of each night; You will be informed of all alignments that visit your bugged targets

Notifications:
Sneaking:
-Deodat Lawson was away from home tonight
-A Consigliere and a Witch visited your targets house tonight

Bugs:
Giles Corey was visited by the Mafia and at least 1 Arsonist
John Hathorne was visited by the Town
Cotton Mather was visited by the Vampires, Neutral Evil, and at least 1 Serial Killer

Possible Ideas:
-Should Spy be able to see bugged targets whispers?
-Bugs limited to two
-Sneaking informs the spy of all roles (including town) which visited
-Spy still receives feedback of what happened to bugged targets?

[EtherealEnder]

- what does "at home" mean? like they weren't jailed, or that they didn't visit anybody? if it's the latter it just kinda makes it a worse tracker and might just make the role too powerful
- 3 houses bugged is a lot imo, especially if they don't go away on their own
- sneaking into a house and bugging them both tell you the roles/alignments of the people who visit? for some reason?
- ngl i prefer the current version of bugging

In response to Possible Ideas:
- no
- sure, that seems alright
- no
- maybe, but then at this point just leave bugs the way they are

[Cabohhh]

Isn't Witch the only NE role that can visit? Why not just say "visited by witch" to make it easier for new players?

I do like this rework a lot. It makes spy a much more powerful role, and it won't cripple disguiser/framer/forger anymore.

I was opposed to having to visit twice to remove a bug, but it's a good buffer to the Spy so they don't just endlessly visit.

What happens when a bugged target dies? Do you just get the bug back or is it destroyed?

I don't think that the Spy should know if any specific roles that visit their target except for Neutrals. It just seems overpowered. For example, if you bugged the Mayor, it would shut down other "spies", BG claims, etc. It would also kinda screw with Consig, Consort, etc. So they wouldn't be able to see if town visited, but it would be able to see if Mafia or Coven visit. This would give evils a little more claimspace (Say that the target was framed, Disguised, etc.)

Because it can see if a Town member visits the target, it hard-confirms someone as town. All you have to do is ask someone to go on a certain bugged person, and you've got people confirmed instantly.

I really like this rework, but i feel like it definitely needs a little bit of a nerf as is. Great role, but a lil op.

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

In response to EtherealEnder

- what does "at home" mean? like they weren't jailed, or that they didn't visit anybody? if it's the latter it just kinda makes it a worse tracker and might just make the role too powerful At home means they weren't taking away from their home and didn't visit. If they were transported or were jailed then they would be considered not at home? Unless the transported thing is taking it a step too far. Idk what do you think?
- 3 houses bugged is a lot imo, especially if they don't go away on their own Remember it still takes awhile to have all those bugs placed and if the bugged target dies then the bug is lost. Also the Spy doesn't receive any of the bugged information on the night he places the bug
- sneaking into a house and bugging them both tell you the roles/alignments of the people who visit? for some reason? When you sneak into a players house you are only aware of non-town roles that visit your target. After you've placed a bug you will be informed of all alignments that visit your target
- ngl i prefer the current version of bugging Kinda pointless and boring most of the time. Also extremely underpowered whilst the MV thing is very overpowered

In response to Cabohhh

Isn't Witch the only NE role that can visit? Why not just say "visited by witch" to make it easier for new players? The game needs more TRUE Neutral Evil roles anyway. By true I mean roles that are truly evil and have to see the town lose. I don't consider Exe/Jester to be proper Neutral Evil roles as they can side with who they want. But I guess until that happens then sure "visited by Witch" makes a lot of sense

I do like this rework a lot. It makes spy a much more powerful role, and it won't cripple disguiser/framer/forger anymore.

I was opposed to having to visit twice to remove a bug, but it's a good buffer to the Spy so they don't just endlessly visit. Yeah and when they sneak back into a house,they still get the benefit of determining Mafia/Coven roles that visit their target when sneaking and if their target was at home or not. Which the bugs don't provide

What happens when a bugged target dies? Do you just get the bug back or is it destroyed? Sorry I didnt specify this, but I think it would be best and most logical if the bug was destroyed. Thoughts?

I don't think that the Spy should know if any specific roles that visit their target except for Neutrals. It just seems overpowered. For example, if you bugged the Mayor, it would shut down other "spies", BG claims, etc. It would also kinda screw with Consig, Consort, etc. So they wouldn't be able to see if town visited, but it would be able to see if Mafia or Coven visit. This would give evils a little more claimspace (Say that the target was framed, Disguised, etc.) Take note that you don't receive any information from the bug the night it was placed. Also, bugs only show which alignments visit e.g. the Mafia visited your target. Sneaking into a players house will show if any Mafia/Coven roles visited your target. But with the current spy its usually easy to work out which Random Mafia roles are in the game anyway, by determining if visitors received any feedback etc.

Because it can see if a Town member visits the target, it hard-confirms someone as town. All you have to do is ask someone to go on a certain bugged person, and you've got people confirmed instantly. Fair point. Could still be synergy with Disguiser as a disguised person would be considered "town". And Mafia can still visit that target if they've got a Consig/Framer and then both a Mafia and Town will be shown to visit. Who was the townie, who was the Mafia?

I really like this rework, but i feel like it definitely needs a little bit of a nerf as is. Great role, but a lil op. Thanks. The MV abillity is OP with Forgers, Disguisers, Consiglieres and Consorts in the game. I mostly wanted to remove this abillity. Ideas for a nerf?

[Benn3]

I like this rework, much better than the current Spy. Although there's some things that I think aren't necessary.

-You will be aware of if your target was at home or not

This kind of makes them like a discount Tracker, not really needed.

-You will be informed of any non-town roles that visit your target

This kind of makes them like a Trapper, might be better if it just tells you what factions they were visited by to stay a bit closer to the original.

-Targets house will remain bugged

I feel like this might be OP, especially combined with the Trapper aspect. Might be better if you could just bug 2 players per night however the bug doesn't stay.

-You can only have 3 players houses bugged at a time

As Ethereal said, 3 houses seems like a lot especially when bugs stay. As I said above, might be better if you just bugged 2 players per night however the bugs aren't permanent.

-At the end of each night; You will be informed of all alignments that visit your bugged targets

This is fine but they should be able to see multiple factional visits on their target, like if a Mafioso and Janitor both visited, it'd give the 'target visited by Mafia' notification twice, instead of being a broad message for if any amount visited(if that's how this is).

-Should Spy be able to see bugged targets whispers?

Def not, makes them too confirmable and makes communication between evils a lot harder, which is why seeing whispers got removed in the first place I think.

-Bugs limited to two

Would be better than three, yes. But I already stated how I think it should be changed earlier in this reply.

-Sneaking informs the spy of all roles (including town) which visited

Makes them even more like Trapper which I think is unnecessary, it also makes it too easy to confirm some Town roles and to confirm people as evil.(ex: ask the sheriff claim to check alice, bug alice, and see that she wasnt visited by a sheriff)

-Spy still receives feedback of what happened to bugged targets?

Yeah, I don't think there's any reason to remove the ability to see what happens to their targets so I'm fine with this.


Overall it's much better than the current Spy. Big issue with the current Spy is that they PASSIVELY get visits, and can immediately out roles with defense, Consorts, Disguisers, Consiglieres, Forgers, etc, which requires no skill. Making them only see the visits of their BUGGED targets makes them much more interactive and actually makes you have to think about who you should bug. Although I think this rework has some unnecessary additions, if changed enough I'd definitely fully support it.