2021 Role Ideas Championship || SERVANT WINS

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 1

Postby Ezradekezra » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:30 am

Servant should be a pretty fun to play, since you get to have a teammate without necessarily having to be deceptive about it. The independent action ability also gives it more utility than a Mafioso has when the GF is alive while also making it require more skill to play.

---

My main issue with Altruist is that it combines aspects of old Disguiser and old Retributionist. The body-swapping mechanic makes it easy for trolls to incite false reports (this was an issue with old Disguiser iirc), while the resurrection is just kinda boring to play, especially since you die in the process. The dead chat access, roleblock immunity, and control immunity also seem kinda pointless.

In the end, I think I'd rather roll GA than Altruist because GA doesn't have to kill itself and doesn't have to worry about trolls.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 1

Postby DumWasTaken » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:42 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:Servant should be a pretty fun to play, since you get to have a teammate without necessarily having to be deceptive about it. The independent action ability also gives it more utility than a Mafioso has when the GF is alive while also making it require more skill to play.

---

My main issue with Altruist is that it combines aspects of old Disguiser and old Retributionist. The body-swapping mechanic makes it easy for trolls to incite false reports (this was an issue with old Disguiser iirc), while the resurrection is just kinda boring to play, especially since you die in the process. The dead chat access, roleblock immunity, and control immunity also seem kinda pointless.

In the end, I think I'd rather roll GA than Altruist because GA doesn't have to kill itself and doesn't have to worry about trolls.


Hey, altruists creator here. I can see your point (even if i dont necesserally agree with most of it) in everything except the false report stuff. As alex himself commeneted on my original post on altruist, it wouldnt be very hard for the trial system to have a message among the lines of "[Revived player name] (Revivied persons role) is now [Altruist's name]", especially considering they ARE in the middle of revamping the entire UI anyways (you can even get early access to it with enough trial points).

With that being out of the way, some of the stuff i personally dissagree with include

1-GA > Altruist
Now look, this is a very subjective one, but i personally hate the way GA is implemented, your target is random, you could end up with a troll or a AFK person, its too easy to win with it, (your target died? no problem, your confirmed surv now, go AFK for auto win) and its a HUGE buff (2 days vote immunity, +1 vote) without any Drawbacks. Like for real what even is the drawback to a GA? Some random dude might ask you to claim "because you have a GA and thats dangerous with your evil" and then get lynched because thats a sus thing to ask. Now, altruist fixes most of my issues with GA (No extra votes, only one day of vote immunity, less RNG since altruist gets to talk in dead chat and decide who to revive, wich would help with not getting AFKs or trolls, and its actually not a free win, since you need to keep your target alive (wich means having a solid claim for when you swap, another thing dead chat access is usefull for)

2-Control immunity and RB immunity are useless
No, no they arent. RB immunity is mostly because i want to avoid a situation where a Altruist is just rbed all game and doesnt get to play. Control immunity however, is actually usefull. A little known fact is that a CL/Witch can force a Amne to use their night ability on someone, if they control the amne into someone who dies the same night. Now since altruist has the same priority as amne, i assume that would happen too, and imagine just how lame it would be to be forced into swapping with the solo mafioso N2 cause CL said so.

3-GA doesnt need to worry about trolls

Read number 1

Now, for why i think altruist is a better fit for ToS then servant is (because i will admit right now, servant is more fun for most people, especially evil servants bcs u people like being evil for some reason)

1-As i said about GA having to depend on your randomly assigned target to not be AFK, Leave D1, or just troll to be able to win is kinda not cool imo

2-Its another stupid overpowered buff to the faction that gets it WITH 0 DRAWBACKS, i cant possibily stress how much i hate roles that just buff someone and have no drawbacks, its just hella OP imo (Blantant examples of this being OP include, but are not limited to CL with a mafioso, CL with 2 controls in one night, Ambusher with astral, Ambusher with 2 ambushes in one night, Vigi with 2 shots in one night, tarnationing PM (wich is already VERY strong) with 2 pots in one night (Coven has potential for 4 kills in one night with this role, wich is pure BULL imo).

PS:Im just doing my job by attacking the opposing role, there are deftinitively upsides to it, wich i obviously wont touch on, and altruist isint all sunshines either (nothing is tbh) but i do belive its the better fit, or i would have resigned.

EDIT: Lets not forget the potential for 5-6 evils in the same team that GA and servant offer, wich is also stupid OP, adding another role like GA would make this far too common for my liking
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 1

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:14 pm

DumWasTaken wrote:1-GA > Altruist
Now look, this is a very subjective one, but i personally hate the way GA is implemented, your target is random, you could end up with a troll or a AFK person, its too easy to win with it, (your target died? no problem, your confirmed surv now, go AFK for auto win) and its a HUGE buff (2 days vote immunity, +1 vote) without any Drawbacks. Like for real what even is the drawback to a GA? Some random dude might ask you to claim "because you have a GA and thats dangerous with your evil" and then get lynched because thats a sus thing to ask. Now, altruist fixes most of my issues with GA (No extra votes, only one day of vote immunity, less RNG since altruist gets to talk in dead chat and decide who to revive, wich would help with not getting AFKs or trolls, and its actually not a free win, since you need to keep your target alive (wich means having a solid claim for when you swap, another thing dead chat access is usefull for)

Yeah, a GA's target can be a troll, but said troll won't be able to speak through the GA's mouth. If the Appeals subforum is anything to go by, even if features are added to the trial system that denote whether or not a body swap has occurred, most trolls will probably not notice (or not care) and take the easy opportunity to troll and make the Altruist look like a POS.

Also, a GA can only become a confirmed Survivor if their target dies after the GA has used a heal (and claims it). Additionally, even if confirmed, Survivors are very much not guaranteed a free win as people like to policy kill them.

As for GA being too OP, I don't really get that idea since it can only use its heal twice and is only present in Coven modes, which have a high KPN by design.

DumWasTaken wrote:2-Control immunity and RB immunity are useless
No, no they arent. RB immunity is mostly because i want to avoid a situation where a Altruist is just rbed all game and doesnt get to play. Control immunity however, is actually usefull. A little known fact is that a CL/Witch can force a Amne to use their night ability on someone, if they control the amne into someone who dies the same night. Now since altruist has the same priority as amne, i assume that would happen too, and imagine just how lame it would be to be forced into swapping with the solo mafioso N2 cause CL said so.

These are niche situations that don't really warrant additional special attributes imo

DumWasTaken wrote:1-As i said about GA having to depend on your randomly assigned target to not be AFK, Leave D1, or just troll to be able to win is kinda not cool imo

It's also not cool to have someone break a bunch of rules while using your name

DumWasTaken wrote:2-Its another stupid overpowered buff to the faction that gets it WITH 0 DRAWBACKS, i cant possibily stress how much i hate roles that just buff someone and have no drawbacks, its just hella OP imo (Blantant examples of this being OP include, but are not limited to CL with a mafioso, CL with 2 controls in one night, Ambusher with astral, Ambusher with 2 ambushes in one night, Vigi with 2 shots in one night, tarnationing PM (wich is already VERY strong) with 2 pots in one night (Coven has potential for 4 kills in one night with this role, wich is pure BULL imo).

Couldn't the same also be said of GA and Altruist?

DumWasTaken wrote:EDIT: Lets not forget the potential for 5-6 evils in the same team that GA and servant offer, wich is also stupid OP, adding another role like GA would make this far too common for my liking

CTT and one of the practice lists from the last offseason both have 5 informed evils, and they were pretty balanced, so I don't see what the problem is

I think I remember someone mentioning that the Mafia limit used to be 6 back in 2014 or something as well

---

If the point of Altruist is to be a nerfed GA, then why is it a separate role and not a rework?
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:01 am

You may now vote for your favorite role! Anyone may now talk in this thread. To vote, type /vote role either here or in the Discord. You have until to cast your votes.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:08 am

Not sure if I'm allowed to vote or not but

/vote Servant
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:19 am

Ezradekezra wrote:Not sure if I'm allowed to vote or not but

/vote Servant


You can vote but it's sort of meaningless since dum will vote for Altruist
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 am

alex1234321 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Not sure if I'm allowed to vote or not but

/vote Servant

You can vote but it's sort of meaningless since dum will vote for Altruist

It's meaningful if Dum is afk for the voting period
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby DumWasTaken » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:25 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Not sure if I'm allowed to vote or not but

/vote Servant

You can vote but it's sort of meaningless since dum will vote for Altruist

It's meaningful if Dum is afk for the voting period


im not afk in the voting period

/vote altruist

Its not a GA rework because altruist uses the GA role, even if im a strong advocate for removing GA

Someone trolling with your name is ALSO a niche situation, i have played a lot of ToS and in my experience trolls are few and easy to spot, and even if you do end up reviving one, you wont get banned for i think its fair to say its a very niche scenario too. As for people police killing survs, (me being one of those people especially when town) that almost never happens, and i usually get lynched by my own town for doing it cause "PuShInG sUrV iS sUs". And tbh with you, 99% of GAs are confirmed because of the n1 guard meta, so no its not a rare occurence. (but lets just drop the GA argument and focus on our roles)

Servant is a lot better than GA imo, and i would still be happier with it in place of GA, but is still a bit too OP for my liking. (As you said yourself, mafia limits in 2014 were 6, and that was lowered for a reason, and that reason is not so we can have NBs instead of mafia roles fill those slots). i still dont like how it can give poetntially cause 4KPN for coven (not accounting for a dusa bait) wich again, is too much (Ex: 8 town vs 3 coven 1 servant --> 4 town vs 3 coven 1 servant)

And dont even get me started on how in some scenarios coven could have 2+ CL replacements, and so on. Like at least make the role unique, we dont need multiple of these
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby superdog551 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:44 pm

I'm going to look into the roles more before I vote, so I will edit this post with my vote as soon as I have decided which I like more. I just wanted to make it early to comment on one thing.

A solution to the fear of false reports/trolls with the Altruist is simple. Not only should the Trial system say when X swapped with Y, but any reports that are made against X after Y has taken their name should just be treated as if Y is the one being reported, and vice versa. That way there would be less hassle with judges having to duplicate reports as they wouldn't actually be against the wrong person.

/Vote Servant
Last edited by superdog551 on Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby Brilliand » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:22 pm

So it's an Amnesiac buff that thinks it's a GA nerf, versus a GA variant with Amnesiac powers? Well at least this is a close matchup.

I think the most compelling argument here was that Altruist uses both the body-swapping mechanic and the resurrection mechanic, each of which comes with a host of problems. The overpoweredness argument is kinda moot because every NB is overpowered in the sense of being a kingmaker.

/vote Servant

superdog551 wrote:A solution to the fear of false reports/trolls with the Altruist is simple. Not only should the Trial system say when X swapped with Y, but any reports that are made against X after Y has taken their name should just be treated as if Y is the one being reported, and vice versa. That way there would be less hassle with judges having to duplicate reports as they wouldn't actually be against the wrong person.


Note that body-swapping also has the issue of players being able to confirm themselves as having swapped or not, i.e. with secret messages exchanged via whispers or jailing.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby runningwiththepower » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:05 pm

I really truly like both ideas and I really want both to end up in the TG

with that being said,

/vote Servant
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 2

Postby sunbird1002 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:34 pm

/vote Servant.

Even though servant can be swingy (and hopefully will never be considered for a ranked role list), Alturist is too similar to the amnesiac for my liking. Sure, it can speak to the dead and act as a second medium (yay fun if altruist remembers town!) and maybe some funny plays can come from an altruist remembering mafia while claiming they swapped with town. But, cant a slightly edited amnesiac do the same thing and occupy the same place that Altruist hopes to obtain? Maybe playing the game yourself all the way through is more skill testing than giving someone else the reigns?
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:33 pm

Servant beat Altruist with a vote of 5-1! The next match, Silencer vs Associate, will begin in about 30 minutes and run for 48 hours. No one besides the authors of the roles may post in this thread but you may discuss in the Discord.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby runningwiththepower » Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:28 pm

Okei I guess I will go first haha

Just to recap what the role is:
Alice is Silencer. N1 she targets Bob. Bob gets a message "Someone Demands Your Silence!". D2, Bob can still talk BUT if he talks openly in the day chat, he will be killed the next day. Bob however CAN whisper. Bob also CAN say on the stand: "I am silenced". Only lasts a day. But if Bob talks openly on D2...then he dies that N2; Basic Attack.
With Necro: Alice is Silencer. She targets Elphaba. Elphaba does NOT get a "Someone Demands Your Silence!" warning. Elphaba can talk or whisper but if she does EITHER talking ORRRR whispering, then that night she will die. Last priority in terms of getting the Necro; Basic Attack.


I think Silencer should Advance to the Next Round because I believe it to be a fun, fairly balanced & innovative role. Silencer has a lot of the base attributes of Blackmailer but is more flexible for both the Silencer & the Silenced, while also changing up the meta by encouraging whispering. And I could defo imagine Evils claiming Silenced when they really are not. In addition, it also has that characteristic kill power that all Coven roles must possess but not to an extreme amount where it would absolutely SMASH the game apart--while Silencer may seem a bit weak at first glance, I think it would be a fun addition &, should Silencer get Necro, the Town would devolve into paranoia as nobody knows who exactly has been Silenced without the Silenced the Message?! It would be just good, fun chaos :D

There has been a real dearth of Coven roles in the TG and I am pleased that Silencer was able to be included in this Role Ideas Championship and I hope, going forward, it can open the door for even more Coven roles.


I am going to be bluntly honest. I really love Associate. But that role is already deadset to get into the TG in this Month's Poll. So let us maybe advance something that isn't already guaranteed a spot in the TG? And Associate is very much akin to a Mafia!PM--which we already got a taste of with Technician--so adding a new flavour of Mafia!Support doesn't seem very exciting.

Vote Silencer for Class President!
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby superdog551 » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:37 pm

Spoiler: Sorry for my kinda late post, but here we go!

I really like Silencer as a concept, and since it seems Associate has already passed through to the TG I feel this may not be a fair matchup, but as for the rules I will still defend my role and allow the voters to decide in the poll.

The Silencer is a fun concept and something I would enjoy seeing in some form in the TG. That being said, this version has some glaring weaknesses. With a target getting the message that they have been silenced it is far too easy for them to counteract the effect through whispering, since there is no threat to them for doing so. With the Necronomicon this weakness is fixed but there is another issue: Though unlikely, it is possible that a target may not talk or whisper when targeted with the necro. In that situation the silencer cannot get a kill even though all other coven roles can consistently get 1 KPN with the necro.
The Silencer could be good utility in slowing the spread of information, especially when targeting Tis because they cannot post their findings out loud without dying. The same problem comes from the whispers, though. I think the best solution to this would just to make it so the person who has been silenced will die if they talk or whisper even without the necro, and then maybe the silencer cannot target them twice in a row afterwards. This would buff the role a lot which I think it needs before it would be ready to be added to the game.

Even though I hear that the Associate is a Mafia PM a lot, I disagree. The potion master can do three things: Investigate, heal, or kill. The Associate cannot do any of those things, rather it buffs fellow mafia members abilities and cannot act alone. I don't think Associate should be judged as a PM clone just because it has multiple abilities. Also while it is true that the Technician is being tested now and has proven very useful to the Mafia I would argue that the Associate is different enough from Tech to warrant being included despite sharing the Mafia(Support) category. With that out of the way, I will explain why I believe that Associate should move forward.

The Associate does multiple things at once by existing: Buffs the mafia by giving specific roles enhanced abilities, counters powerful spies and lookouts, and weakens the Jailor meta. I would argue it does all of this without being overpowered at the same time. I will explain this and each ability's strengths.

The reason it is not overpowered comes from the fact that it visits the same person that the mafia member it is supporting visits. This means that the mafia can't be careless with their buffs, as an accidental visit to a veteran will kill two members, or a visit to someone watched by a Lookout will reveal them both. Partnered with a spy this could be very bad for the mafia, so they must be smart with their visits. The Associate can also only give each member a specific buff once, so the mechanics can't be abused and must be well timed. If the buffed mafia member or the Associate is roleblocked/jailed or their visit fails for any reason, then that ability has been wasted. Timing and strategizing is key with the Associate.
-Alibi: This ability would be useful to all mafia members, even the Godfather, because their visit is hidden from spies and they become hidden from sheriffs as well. The Associate is also hidden from spies because it must visit the same target, so if it was not the ability would not be a useful counter. This ability can be very useful in making a suspected mafia member seem innocent the night they would be checked and also removing some info from spies for a night.
-Efficiency: This ability would be incredibly useful to other Mafia(Support) roles as it allows them to target two people in one night. It cannot be used on Mafia(Killing) members to prevent abuse that multiple kills would give. Benefits of this ability include: Hypnotist having a decent Transporter claim, Consort stopping two people at once, framer getting off two frames, consig checking two targets, etc. The catch is that the mafia member and Associate become much more susceptible to LO, Spy, Vet, Crus, or any other role that can affect them from a visit. The Associate must decide when a good time to double visits would be without causing harm to the mafia.
-Stealth: This ability would be useful once again to all mafia members as an astral visit could bypass anything that may catch or kill them. It is important to note that only the buffed member gains the astral visit, the Associate does not, so they are still at risk of being caught. This ability would heavily counter the jailor meta by providing the Mafioso with the ability to kill the jailor safely (and similar to the proposed idea of giving the Mafioso a single astral attack it can only be used once). Jailors would not want to claim without being sure that an Associate isn't available to kill them. Other Mafia members also benefit from this for obvious reasons.

I enjoy both of these roles! It is unfortunate that they must go against each other but that's how it goes in a tournament :P
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby runningwiththepower » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:41 pm

I would argue that Associate would just end up being an overpowered carbon copy of Technician. Technician is already sweeping things up for Mafia as is, we don't really need anymore Mafia buffs at the moment.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:31 am

Sorry for the delay, I was on vacation and just got back. Anyway, I'll start the voting now. Voting ends at . Anyone may now talk and vote in the thread.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:54 am

Associate's already in the TG soooo

/vote Silencer
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby runningwiththepower » Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:34 pm

/vote Silencer
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby superdog551 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:02 pm

/Vote Associate
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby sunbird1002 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:25 pm

/vote Associate

I mean, yes, its in TG already. However, the winner of this contest, if its already in TG, will probably give up their role to the second/third place player (if second place is also a TG role.) Associate's arguments are stronger than Silencer, and Silencer as a role is too weak in its current state.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 3

Postby Brilliand » Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:42 am

While I don't like that we're now in the position of having roles winning this contest that have already been voted into the TG, I already conceded round 1 which was essentially the same situation as this round. By doing so, I set the precedent that the audience doesn't get to use their votes to effectively disqualify roles for being "too good" for this contest. So, in keeping with that precedent...

/vote Associate

sunbird1002 wrote:I mean, yes, its in TG already. However, the winner of this contest, if its already in TG, will probably give up their role to the second/third place player (if second place is also a TG role.)


Unfortunately, the single-elimination nature of this contest means that the only role that actually gets compared with every other role is the one that comes in first. Second/third place is ambiguous.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 4

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:25 am

After a massive comeback, Associate beat Silencer 3-2! The next match will be between Possessor and Elemental. The creators of each role may now talk in this thread.
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 4

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:50 pm

(what happened to this)

(should we skip to the voting phase since the creators aren't debating)
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Ezradekezra
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Re: 2021 Role Ideas Championship || QUARTERFINALS 4

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:34 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:(what happened to this)

(should we skip to the voting phase since the creators aren't debating)


Yeah I was sort of waiting for the creators to debate but it doesn't look like they're doing that.

I'll start voting now. You have until to vote.
#SaveTheTG

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alex1234321
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