Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Bodacious or totally not tubular?

Bodacious.
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Totally not tubular.
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Total votes : 4

Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby SilverCruz » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:45 pm

It goes like this. By the by, remember this is the only Mafia-type game I've ever played, so I'm not going to try to keep something around just because it's standard.

- The Godfather as a role is removed. Instead, it now exists as a trait that is applied to another member of the Mafia, and confers Detection Immunity, Basic Defense, and Last Stand Roleblock Immunity (which is to say - You become Roleblock Immune if you are the last member of the Mafia standing, but not before then). If the Godfather dies, the trait will be handed off to another member of the Mafia, and this will happen until there is one member of the Mafia left (rather than there not being a Godfather if two go down). Bodyguard and Arsonist are folded over into other Investigative results.

- The Mafioso is also removed because it's a meaningless role with this setup that has effectively been folded into every other role. Vigilante, Veteran, and Ambusher remain in the same investigative bracket (this is also possibly where Bodyguard ends up to give Ambusher a bracket-matching claim that isn't Town Killing).

- The Godfather can declare both an attack to be made and a target for their own night ability, as well as an attacker to execute the declared attack. If their declared attacker is roleblocked, or if they do not declare an attacker to begin with, they will cancel the visit against the target selected for their night ability and execute the attack directly.

- Other members of the Mafia can choose to declare an attack or use their Night Ability. If they choose to declare an attack and the Godfather is roleblocked or does not declare a target to attack, then the earliest attack declared that is not (also) prevented by a roleblock will be executed, and the rest will be ignored. Unlike the Godfather, their choice is mutually exclusive, so if they don't end up attacking after declaring one then they will spend their night doing nothing. Using their night ability works the same way as it does now, except it will be overridden if they were chosen as the attacker for an attack declared by the Godfather and the Godfather was not roleblocked.

- The Godfather can declare an attack and attacker while jailed, but cannot declare a target to apply their night ability to (*unless the Jailor's roleblock when not executing is removed, as it should be).

Now, a quick practical example of how I'd see this working in action. The Mafia Role List is Hypnotist (Godfather, hence "Hypnogod"), Framer, Consigliere, and Forger.

Hypnogod declares an attack against William Hobbs, that Framer will carry out the attack, and that they will attempt to use Roleblocked on Ann Hibbins.
Framer also chooses to declare an attack, and declares an attack against William Phips, being the first member of the Mafia other than Hynogod to declare an attack. Framer cannot choose a target to frame as a result.
Consigliere chooses not to declare an attack, and instead decides to investigate Sarah Good.
Forger chooses to declare an attack against John Hathorne, doing so after Framer declares their attack against William Phips, and likewise cannot choose a target to forge this night.

If neither the Hypnogod nor Framer are roleblocked, then the Framer will execute Hypnogod's attack against William Hobbs, while Hpynogod will use Roleblocked on Ann Hibbins. Consigliere will investigate Sarah Good, and Forger will do nothing.
If Framer is roleblocked, then Hypnogod will terminate their attempt to use Roleblocked on Ann Hibbins and attack William Hobbs instead. Consigliere will still investigate Sarah Good, and Forger will still do nothing.
If Hypnogod is roleblocked, then Framer will execute their own attack against William Phips. Consigliere will still investigate Sarah Good, and Forger will still do nothing.
If both Hypnogod and Framer are roleblocked, then Forger will execute their attack against John Hathorne and Consigliere will, yet again, still investigate Sarah Good.
If Hypnogod is roleblocked and Framer had instead decided to frame Mary Warren, then Framer will frame Mary Warren, Consigliere will investigate Sarah Good, and Forger will attack John Hathorne.

As for role list adjustments, I'd say start by changing Ranked to either...

Mafia Support (with Ambusher folded into this bracket, and Mafia Killing effectively removed)
Mafia Deception
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

or

Ambusher
Mafia Support (without Ambusher being folded into this bracket, instead just being the sole Mafia Killing now)
Mafia Deception
Random Mafia

... and if it turns out that Mafia has too much of an edge, then remove one of the former's Random Mafias or the latter set's Mafia Support (since it'd be rather predictable with only three roles in it and no Random Mafia) and replace them with a Neutral BE bracket that can be any Neutral Benign or Evil.

For Classic, I'd say Blackmailer/Ambusher/Framer. Disguiser is a no-go because it's too complicated for Classic, I feel (in addition to heavily targeting Spies, however poorly it actually does so), Forger and Janitor are both way too powerful, Hypnotist is kind of another jobber in the same vein as Framer (as well as their Control Hypnotism being completely worthless with no chance of a Witch, though I'd put them in second place behind Blackmailer), while Consigliere and Consort would make it even more hell for the Serial Killer than it already is, plus Consort making things awkward for the Escort. Blackmailer would emphasize to the town that whispers are not secure while also being consistently helpful for the Mafia. Meanwhile, the Ambusher is to keep Vigilante and Veteran from being auto-confirmed by Investigators like how Medium, Lookout, Escort, Investigator, Transporter, Retributionist, and Mayor are (this list excluding Spy and Jailor since Blackmailer would stop them being auto-confirms nevermind the Jailor being a self-confirming role), as well as presenting a threat to the Jailor Meta that currently doesn't really exist in Classic right now. (Plus, if Lookout declares early, there's always a Blackmailer that can camp them while Ambusher nails the Doctor through the Jailor, leaving the Jailor most likely open the following night).

So that's my pitch. Its emphasis is the complete removal of a couple boring roles and extending the versatility of the Mafia through not requiring those boring roles to be present just so it doesn't get deadlocked as easily (again, Jailor's roleblock when not executing should be removed because deadlocks are not healthy for this game, as well as allowing "If you execute me then I can't heal/protect you and you're probably done for tonight." to be a thing you can say, whether you're being honest or not), thereby allowing them to increase their actions per night in Un/ranked and be on average less boring for the people assigned Mafia roles (though I'd argue Framer and Disguiser are still problems in that regard, can't say anything about Hypnotist as I've never been one).
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby MarsGodofWar » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:28 am

Cons:
-Godfather being able to send orders to his Mafia when he's locked in Jail. If declaring an attack/attacker was a daytime ability then this would be less of an issue. But I prefer my idea of a designated successor (the next GF) carrying out orders if the Godfather is jailed.
-Escort becomes useless until pretty much late game. You need 3 Escorts early game to actually stop a kill with your suggestion. So Escort will pretty much just be a troll early game and role block important town roles. Escort is pretty useless at role blocking Random Mafia; as most RM roles aren't useful enough that a role block is detrimental to their game.
-Immunities for all GFs
-Removing GF says fuck it to lore


Neutral:
-Giving Godfather both the ability to choose who to kill and declaring who the attackers will be. Personally, I don't think it's a con, but my TMK had the same idea and people didn't like it.
-Why would Ambusher go into Mafia Support? Just make Mafia Killing a unique alignment for independent Mafia killing roles. Possible role list: Mafia Killing/Mafia Support/Mafia Deception/Random Mafia

Pros:
- Removing Mafioso; a great idea most people just throw it into their TMK ideas because they think deleting roles is bad
- Having 4 usable roles for the Mafia is a good concept
-More versatility for Mafia
Last edited by MarsGodofWar on Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:16 am

well written. i'll read closer later but that's a fairly solid pitch. add it to the tmk poll and i'll +1 it.

BG and arsonist should go together in vig vet amb

crusader should go with werewolf or with ambusher

trapper could go with jugg in a reworked list

such that every NK is paired with a TP
Hiya. I'm a Tactical Mafia Kills supporter.

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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:53 am

why hard counter vigis and sheriffs?

like we said before, only the original GF (and maybe mafioso) should get that because otherwise it becomes a hard counter to vigi and sheriff
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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby SilverCruz » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:30 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:Cons:
-Godfather being able to send orders to his Mafia when he's locked in Jail. If declaring an attack/attacker was a daytime ability then this would be less of an issue. But I prefer my idea of a designated successor (the next GF) carrying out orders if the Godfather is jailed.
-Escort becomes useless until pretty much late game. You need 3 Escorts early game to actually stop a kill with your suggestion. So Escort will pretty much just be a troll early game and role block important town roles. Escort is pretty useless at role blocking Random Mafia; as most RM roles aren't useful enough that a role block is detrimental to their game.
-Immunities for all GFs
-Removing GF says fuck it to lore


Neutral:
-Giving Godfather both the ability to choose who to kill and declaring who the attackers will be. Personally, I don't think it's a con, but my TMK had the same idea and people didn't like it.
-Why would Ambusher go into Mafia Support? Just make Mafia Killing a unique alignment for independent Mafia killing roles. Possible role list: Mafia Killing/Mafia Support/Mafia Deception/Random Mafia

Pros:
- Removing Mafioso; a great idea most people just throw it into their TMK ideas because they think deleting roles is bad
- Having 4 usable roles for the Mafia is a good concept
-More versatility for Mafia


1 - Declaring attacks from jail could stay or go. I'm probably clouded by being very, very against the Jailor having a roleblock when not executing, so if that were to go then it's something the Godfather would be able to do anyway.
2 - Escort's problem is that it lacks feedback. In this case, the way I see it it'd at least situationally be able to stop a kill if the rest of the Mafia other than the Godfather are actually trying to use their Night Abilities. Each one that declares an attack is another one that's not doing something else, so the more they shell up against being roleblocked, the fewer actions per night they're accomplishing. That there are roles where it's very cheap to give up their night ability to dedicate them to attacking (Framer, Disguiser, Hypnotist, situationally Blackmailer if there's nobody who needs to can it) is a problem with those roles, moreso than Escort, but as-is I see Escort as only being good at deadlocking and getting stabbed by Serial Killers, so I think that role would need help even if the current Mafia were fine.
3 - Immunities could be talked over too, sure. I frankly just threw them in because Detection Immunity and Basic Defense are on the Godfather role and Last Stand Roleblock Immunity is specifically to attack deadlocks from Escorts.
4 - Well it still exists, it's just a Trait now. Who says the Godfather can't be good at other things? You don't get to the top of the Mafia by only knowing how to shoot people.

5 - Don't know what to say about that. Again, it's echoing the original Godfather's behaviour, so it could be played with, definitely.
6 - Mafia Support is already kind of an incoherent bracket, for example the only reason Consigliere is in it is because there's no Mafia Investigative bracket. It's also lacking in roles compared to Mafia Deception, so dropping Ambusher into it would make the gap a little closer as far as roles go.

7 - I value doing something about boring roles, and Godfather and Mafioso are boring because they're near carbon-copies of each other that act mainly out of obligation. Just being "the killing guy" isn't interesting because the main reason you're declaring an attack is because somebody has to, trying to snipe important targets is secondary and doesn't come up too often.
8/9 - Yup.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:why hard counter vigis and sheriffs?

like we said before, only the original GF (and maybe mafioso) should get that because otherwise it becomes a hard counter to vigi and sheriff


I'm out of the loop on the discussion on this matter. Vigilante and Sheriff frankly both need help independently of adjusting the Mafia because Vigilante is just a strictly inferior version of the Jailor (weaker attack with greater risk, did the Jester come up with this?) and Sheriff is godawful boring when you get a consecutive string of Innocent results, on top of having a static hard counter in Classic and a crummy chance of finding a bad guy in either Classic or Un/Ranked (nevermind how distrusted the role is, presumably due to being in the same bracket as Executioner), plus the better the town is doing the less useful the Sheriff is, winding up a Civilian if only the Godfather and Witch are left. It gets nothing if it hits Godfather, Townie, or Neutral Evil so it just feels like a really lame version of the Investigator if you ask me. I'd rather know that the guy I checked is a Lookout, Forger, or Witch provided Transporter's not messing things up than not even be totally sure that they're not a bad guy when there's still no evidence of a Transporter.

I won't argue tooth and nail to save detection immunity and basic defense for new Godfathers or anything, so if common word is that it can go, then it can go (the "new Godfathers" can claim the Mafioso label if one would really want that, even if it doesn't make the most sense. The only thing I'll defend to the end is ousting the Godfather and Mafioso as roles (and to a lesser extent Last Stand Roleblock Immunity) because, as I've said, they're boring and only serve to jam the Mafia's retinue with two roles that do the same thing to defend against a possibility that shouldn't exist in the first place.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby SilverCruz » Thu May 06, 2021 5:51 pm

Is it appropriate to kick this up the street right now?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby SilverCruz » Wed May 12, 2021 11:41 pm

Another bump, but this time with an addition I don't feel like editing in right now.

An alternative manner of handling the killing would be... let's say the Godfather can still declare an attacker, but if that attacker chooses to use their night ability while another member of the Mafia declares the attack, any members of the Mafia who have chosen to declare an attack will attempt to execute the attack first, and if they succeed, the Godfather's declared attacker will execute their Night Ability on their target instead. The Godfather may also declare that they will be the attacker so that they will execute the attack if a member of the Mafia who has declared an attack independently will is roleblocked (if they do not select an attacker and all independent attackers are roleblocked, then no attack is executed).

EXAMPLE
Hypnogod declares an attack on William Hobbs, that Blackmailer will execute the attack, and choses to use Controlled on John Proctor.
Blackmailer declares that they will attempt to Blackmail Ann Hibbins
Consigliere declares that they will attempt to investigate Sarah Good.
Framer declares that they will attempt to attack William Phips.

THUS...
- If no member of the Mafia is roleblocked, Framer will execute the attack against William Hobbs instead of William Phips, and Blackmailer will be told "You were told by the Godfather to perform a hit, but someone else volunteered to do it instead." while Framer will be told "The Godfather requested a hit, so you volunteered to do it.". Hypnogod, Blackmailer, and Consigliere will execute their actions against John Proctor, Ann Hibbins and Sarah Good. William Phips is not attacked.
- If Framer is roleblocked, then Blackmailer will cancel their action against Ann Hibbins and execute the attack on William Hobbs. Hypnogod and Consigliere will execute their actions against their targets.
- If Hypnogod is roleblocked, then Framer will execute their attack against William Phips, while Blackmailer and Consigliere execute their actions against their targets.
- If both Hypnogod and Framer are roleblocked, then no attack will be executed while Blackmailer and Consigliere execute their actions against their targets.
- Lastly, if both Blackmailer and Framer are roleblocked, then Hypnogod will cancel their action against John Proctor and execute the attack on William Hobbs instead.

If this feels a little too uncontrollable, then there could also be a button for non-Godfather Mafia who have declared an attack to stay focused. This means that they will not step in to commit the Godfather's attack even if the Godfather chose for a member who is trying to use their Night Ability. In this case if the Godfather is roleblocked, they will execute their own declared attack as expected, while if the Godfather is not roleblocked they will do nothing due to the Godfather's declared attack having higher priority, and if the Godfather's chosen attacker is roleblocked and there is no other Mafia member who has declared an attack without activating focus, the Godfather will execute the attack while the focused Mafia member will again do nothing. This also still follows the rule of "First is first", so if two members of the Mafia declare independent attacks and neither choose to stay focused, then whichever one declared theirs first will attempt to execute the Godfather's attack if not roleblocked. I guess Godfather could get a similar button, too.

The priority list is "Independent Attacker to Godfather's Target - Godfather's Attacker to Godfather's Target - Godfather to Godfather's Target - Independent attacker to independent attacker's target, based on the order in which the independent attacks were declared".

Hope that all makes sense.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Here's another TMK pitch for you.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu May 13, 2021 7:05 am

I still think that GF should only choose one of the 2 options (either killer or killed), otherwise it allows troll GFs to ruin the game even more than now, altho the second idea seems to fix that at some point
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