Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

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Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 am

This is NOT my thread. Orangeandblack5 made this thread several years ago and it was stickied for a long time, but it was removed for some reason. Neither Orange himself nor any of the mods I have spoken to knows why it was removed. I happened to have a copy of it stored as a draft because I was in the process of writing more in-depth explanations of why each concept was bad, and Orange game me permission to repost it. Here is the original post:

orangeandblack5 wrote:Role Concepts You Shouldn't Use - All of these role concepts are destructive to game balance

  • Role Dependency - Any role that requires another role to be in the game
  • Hardcounters - Any role that exists purely to counter or nerf another role
  • Re-hashes - Mafia/Neutral versions of Town roles or vice-versa
  • Night Chat Town - Any Town roles that allow multiple town roles to chat at night
  • Slightly Changed Role - Any role that is extremely similar to an existing one
  • Independent Mafia Killing - Any Mafia killing role that kills on its own, giving Mafia two kills
  • Buddy Role - Any role that requires another specific person to survive to win
  • Conversion Role - Any role that converts other people into a different role
  • Night Immune Town - Any Town role that is night immune
  • Combination Role - Any role that is a combination of other roles
  • Self-Confirming Town - Any role that can confirm itself as a Town member on its own
  • Evil Retributionist - Any role that can revive Neutral or Mafia roles
  • Neutral Chaos - Roles that are part of the Neutral Chaos alignment
  • Anything Chaos - Actually, just don't make any chaos roles
  • Roleswapper - Any role that swaps/changes others' roles
  • RNG Role - Any role that depends on random chance
  • Visitor - Any role that has a win condition involving visiting other people
  • Copycat - Any role that uses other role's night abilities
  • Survivor Rehash - Any Neutral Benign role whose only goal is to survive to the end of the game
  • Neutral Investigative - Any Neutral role that investigates people
  • Non-Evil Neutral Evil - Any Neutral Evil or Killing role that cannot win with the Mafia or (other) Neutral Killings, or can win with the Town
  • Omniscient Town Killing - Any Town Killing role that can only kill evil roles (it can't mess up)
  • Limited Neutral Killing - Any Neutral Killing role that has a limited number of kills or commits suicide
  • Negative Utility - Any role that hurts its faction more than it helps it
  • Easily Confirmable Roles - Definitely more of a guideline; roles shouldn't be able to be easily confirmed not scum, whether Town or Neutral Benign
  • New Alignments - Any alignment made solely for one role.
  • Town Power - The point of the Town Power suggestion is to reduce excessively powerful roles, not make more of them

Specific Roles You Shouldn't Make - Most of these break one or more of the above bad concepts, others are really overused
  • Firefighter - Undouses doused targets
  • Necromancer - Revives dead Mafia
  • Hobo - Must stay at other people's houses to win
  • Lawyer - Must keep their target alive to win
  • Reverse Jester - Must be killed at night to win
  • Infector - Has a delayed kill mechanic (sometimes can be cured by a Doctor)
  • Lover - Picks or is given another person whom must survive for the Lover to win
  • Lovers - Two of them, they must both survive to win
  • Tracker - Watches one person to see who they visit
  • Supplier - Gives people extra items/uses of their night actions
  • Innkeper - Lets Town roles talk at night while protecting them
  • Neutral Veteran - Kills everybody that visits a specific house
  • Monster Hunter - A role specialized at killing Werewolves (and sometimes Vampires)
  • Bomber/Kamikaze - A Neutral Killing role that uses bombs to blow itself up
  • Yandere - A Lover that can kill
  • Firefighter - Seriously. Stop it.

Buffs/Nerfs You Shouldn't Suggest - Any buff/nerf that has been suggested many times that also harms game balance
  • Vigilante Silver Bullets - Gives Vigilante one or more shots that can kill the Werewolf
  • Adding Night Immunity - Excluding the Werewolf, no role needs added night immunity
  • Adding Extra Vests - Giving any existing role an added vest
  • Night 1 Night Immunity - Giving any non-night immune role night immunity for Night 1 alone

If I forgot anything I should add, let me know!
If I added something I shouldn't have, let me know!
If you made one of these role ideas yourself, great! Don't talk about it here.

With that all said, happy role-making, and good luck.
#SaveTheTG

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Credit to PurpleSidewalk1
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:04 pm

This seems very helpful, but there are 2 things that I dont agree with

1: re-hash, if its done well (and obv if the mafia version is stronger than the town one) then I dont see a problem with it, (also I think that it was orange themselves the one who suggested the trickster, which is a very good idea)

The other one is tracker, why is tracker a bad role? Its the most balanced TI so far, sheriff is UP in comparison with other roles
Psy is...psy
Invest dictates evils claims
Spy is info feeder
Lo is very strong


Also (probably they dont but) do vet, doc and bg count as night inmune roles? With their abilities they can sabe themselves


Also, funny thing is that 90% of role ideas posted in the reddit break at least 3 of these each
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:46 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:This seems very helpful, but there are 2 things that I dont agree with

1: re-hash, if its done well (and obv if the mafia version is stronger than the town one) then I dont see a problem with it, (also I think that it was orange themselves the one who suggested the trickster, which is a very good idea)


These are all guidelines, and many balanced roles on here do brake one or more of them. I think an NE Transporter is viable and would support some version of it being added to the game. However, the purpose of this is to stop people from making role ideas like a Mafia Doctor or similar concepts that work well for one alignment and not the others.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:The other one is tracker, why is tracker a bad role? Its the most balanced TI so far, sheriff is UP in comparison with other roles
Psy is...psy
Invest dictates evils claims
Spy is info feeder
Lo is very strong


This was originally posted before Tracker was added to the game. It was a popular role idea that most people supported but people kept posting small variations of it to the point that it became overused. That point is outdated now that Tracker is in the game. Still, don't make copies of existing roles and try not to copy popular ideas that haven't been added into the game.


syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Also (probably they dont but) do vet, doc and bg count as night inmune roles? With their abilities they can sabe themselves


Also, funny thing is that 90% of role ideas posted in the reddit break at least 3 of these each



It's talking more about roles that are naturally immune for the entire game. Town roles shouldn't get autovests or full immunity because then there's almost no way of killing them. TPs have to use their ability on one person every night to effectively give them immunity, so a naturally immune Town role would have to have no other abilities besides their immunity to not be OP. And that's just boring.
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby cob709 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:01 pm

these are good general guidelines, but sometimes there are exceptions.
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:41 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:This seems very helpful, but there are 2 things that I dont agree with

1: re-hash, if its done well (and obv if the mafia version is stronger than the town one) then I dont see a problem with it, (also I think that it was orange themselves the one who suggested the trickster, which is a very good idea)


These are all guidelines, and many balanced roles on here do brake one or more of them. I think an NE Transporter is viable and would support some version of it being added to the game. However, the purpose of this is to stop people from making role ideas like a Mafia Doctor or similar concepts that work well for one alignment and not the others.

Ah that makes sense, im tired of people trying to put the most unbalanced town role into mafia

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:The other one is tracker, why is tracker a bad role? Its the most balanced TI so far, sheriff is UP in comparison with other roles
Psy is...psy
Invest dictates evils claims
Spy is info feeder
Lo is very strong


This was originally posted before Tracker was added to the game. It was a popular role idea that most people supported but people kept posting small variations of it to the point that it became overused. That point is outdated now that Tracker is in the game. Still, don't make copies of existing roles and try not to copy popular ideas that haven't been added into the game.


syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Also (probably they dont but) do vet, doc and bg count as night inmune roles? With their abilities they can sabe themselves


Also, funny thing is that 90% of role ideas posted in the reddit break at least 3 of these each



It's talking more about roles that are naturally immune for the entire game. Town roles shouldn't get autovests or full immunity because then there's almost no way of killing them. TPs have to use their ability on one person every night to effectively give them immunity, so a naturally immune Town role would have to have no other abilities besides their immunity to not be OP. And that's just boring.


ah ok
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:45 pm

also, 2 things which should be added to this thread are


Roles which alter the chat

Roles which alter voting
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby ringpop03 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:49 pm

Lawyer is literally Guardian Angel? If the role got added then obviously it wasn't that bad of a suggestion.
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:56 pm

Um...

Role Dependency - Framer, Disguiser, Vampire Hunter
Hardcounters - Framer, Disguiser, Vampire Hunter
Re-hashes - Consort, Consigliere
Independent Mafia Killing - Ambusher
Buddy Role - Guardian Angel
Conversion Role - Vampire
Combination Role - Jailor (Just a straight upgrade of Escort and Vigilante)
Self-Confirming Town - Jailor
Evil Retributionist - Necromancer
Neutral Chaos - Vampire, Pirate, Plaguebearer
Anything Chaos - Vampire, Pirate, Plaguebearer
RNG Role - Lookout
Copycat - Retributionist
Neutral Investigative - Witch
Limited Neutral Killing - Pirate
Negative Utility - Escort
Easily Confirmable Roles - Jailor

So, ya'know, mission failed.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby cob709 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:44 pm

SilverCruz wrote:Um...

Role Dependency - Framer, Disguiser, Vampire Hunter
Hardcounters - Framer, Disguiser, Vampire Hunter
Re-hashes - Consort, Consigliere
Independent Mafia Killing - Ambusher
Buddy Role - Guardian Angel
Conversion Role - Vampire
Combination Role - Jailor (Just a straight upgrade of Escort and Vigilante)
Self-Confirming Town - Jailor
Evil Retributionist - Necromancer
Neutral Chaos - Vampire, Pirate, Plaguebearer
Anything Chaos - Vampire, Pirate, Plaguebearer
RNG Role - Lookout
Copycat - Retributionist
Neutral Investigative - Witch
Limited Neutral Killing - Pirate
Negative Utility - Escort
Easily Confirmable Roles - Jailor

So, ya'know, mission failed.

I agree with everything, except for Escort.
Escort only becomes negative utility if they target town players.
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Re: Orange's Role Idea Thread Revived

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:08 pm

My beef with the Escort is that it has no feedback so it never knows what it's doing unless it's deadlocking (which shouldn't exist) or getting stabbed by a Serial Killer, and it's statistically better for it to idle in the early nights since on Night 1 in a Ranked role list it only has a 2/14 chance at best to roleblock a member of the Mafia and actually prevent them from doing something (since Godfather and Mafioso need to be blocked simultaneously to stop them from killing if they're both still alive, also Jailor shouldn't have a roleblock in the first place), while Witch is explicitly roleblock immune and Executioner is virtually roleblock immune since it doesn't do anything at night anyway. Also, on the off-chance the Mafia has two Consorts, the Escort is nothing but a hindrance to the town before the Godfather or Mafioso goes down since there's literally nothing the Escort can roleblock that will have a measurable effect (again, except in the case of both killers being blocked simultaneously, which is less likely than an OG Framer successfully framing somebody), but when one of the two killers does go down, it instantly swings into being blatantly overpowered instead because it becomes capable of deadlocking and unlike the Jailor, there is no reality in which it has anything better to do than to keep deadlocking.

It just feels like it only exists so that getting roleblocked doesn't just instantly mean there's 100% a Consort if you ask me.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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