Detective vs Sheriff

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Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:54 am

What's the use for Detective outside of just being a delayed cop that can find or get broken up by neutrals.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:30 am

Just a weaker cop.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:56 am

Detective as in a parity cop or the MS detective?
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby ZoruaLuhansk » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:10 pm

Parity Cop I presume

There are 2 points
1. Sometimes you want a role that isn't as strong as cop, usually in closed standards or SFMs
2. In Semi-Opens you can have situational drawbacks (Parity Cop sees through GF) or something like that I have no idea what's balanced in semi-opens
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:38 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:Detective as in a parity cop or the MS detective?

Oh right, yeah Parity Cop
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:39 pm

Because I feel Detective is super weak in a semi-open Standard game.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:07 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:Because I feel Detective is super weak in a semi-open Standard game.

dont exaggerate it's not super weak. just weaker than cop nothing else.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:15 pm

Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:Because I feel Detective is super weak in a semi-open Standard game.

dont exaggerate it's not super weak. just weaker than cop nothing else.

Why have the role at all if it's essentially a negative utility rand.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:31 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:Because I feel Detective is super weak in a semi-open Standard game.

dont exaggerate it's not super weak. just weaker than cop nothing else.

Why have the role at all if it's essentially a negative utility rand.

Indisputable pc does not have negative utility.
it's just for the sake of balance, if you don't want a cop however you don't want a weak ti as well you can use pc.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:36 pm

Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Royee wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:Because I feel Detective is super weak in a semi-open Standard game.

dont exaggerate it's not super weak. just weaker than cop nothing else.

Why have the role at all if it's essentially a negative utility rand.

Indisputable pc does not have negative utility.
it's just for the sake of balance, if you don't want a cop however you don't want a weak ti as well you can use pc.

I'm unsure if I worded that right.
When you have both PC and Cop in the same setup, it's a negative utility rand if you get PC over Cop. The only small benefit is that you can differentiate btween mafia and town but that's situational at best. Very rarely do you chain check Town -> SK -> Mafia (for example). Yet iirc I keep seeing PC and Cop both being rollable in the same slot.

Honestly I feel it's one or the other or PC is just an unlucky roll. Of course I am talking about semi-open setups. Completely open or closed it's fine if both are there as it's pre-chosen.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:37 pm

Negative utility rand as in just being at a disadvantage because of just luck of a single number. Rather than what the entire setup is, if that makes any sense.

If you have a Cop with a Framer/Godfather it is weaker than if there is a Godfather and no framer. But that is the luck of the setup, whereas PC is just straight up weaker than Cop in nearly every situation.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:40 pm

then that's the host's fault for picking this role
semiopen are meh anyway if you are insisting on its balance.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:43 pm

I suggest you that you ought to not look at the micro level of semiopen's balance and sweeping away the swing.
semiopen are anyway swingy
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby SparkingJay » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:34 pm

PC can find neutrals, Cop can’t (in most circumstances)

Edit: I didn’t read the op

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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby dota2reporter » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:01 pm

detective is a bit more skill-testing imo which can make the game more fun

cop is a bit too easy in the fact that you get the check and that's it, while with detective there's now a thunderdome
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:51 am

Thank you all for the response, it really helped settle things in my mind (and future reasons to shit on mods that add both >.<)
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby dolphina » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:17 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:Thank you all for the response, it really helped settle things in my mind (and future reasons to shit on mods that add both >.<)

so use limited shot cops, and use regular ol' detectives.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby UzayAltay » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:20 am

Detective finds evidence, cop arrests guilty people.

Jokes aside, main differences are following:
1)Look at The neutral
2) Weaker Result

For 2, I can say Basicly that (A and B are different alignment ) is Weaker Than (A is town, B is Mafia.)
1, it generally depends into PC seeing through neutrals as a different alignment , which can be sometimes More benefical.
And that's it. Overall cop is superior though there might be some small situations that PC might be more useful. It depends what You want to use, as a host.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby watchme1 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:58 pm

In games where days are more limited like in smaller playerlists e.g. sfm76 where there's two lynches a day and you want a TI but not as strong, detective is a better balance substitute.

People who run both run it mainly cuz of neutrals. Like some setups run where PC can find neutrals but cop can only find mafia etc. It's just a whole bunch of what you want in terms of power for TI's etc.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Kmenx » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:18 am

Parity Cop can mass clear or mass confirm while Cop is more singular targer,Parity cop gets stronger the longer game goes on while cop is mostly strong on first days
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:39 am

Kmenx wrote:Parity Cop can mass clear or mass confirm while Cop is more singular targer,Parity cop gets stronger the longer game goes on while cop is mostly strong on first days

Hm
No
Lol
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby ZoruaLuhansk » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:12 am

The version of parity cop traditionally run here has 1 target per night, not two

I think that's the misunderstanding, at least
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Kmenx » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:34 am

Royee wrote:
Kmenx wrote:Parity Cop can mass clear or mass confirm while Cop is more singular targer,Parity cop gets stronger the longer game goes on while cop is mostly strong on first days

Hm
No
Lol

Yes Cops usually die after outing their results once so they usually can get one scum at most while PC can out at least 2 while outing
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby Royee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:57 am

Kmenx wrote:
Royee wrote:
Kmenx wrote:Parity Cop can mass clear or mass confirm while Cop is more singular targer,Parity cop gets stronger the longer game goes on while cop is mostly strong on first days

Hm
No
Lol

Yes Cops usually die after outing their results once so they usually can get one scum at most while PC can out at least 2 while outing

and if the cop doesn't out their results?
it's literally the same but favors x if your perspective is y, which is still wrong to assume.
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Re: Detective vs Sheriff

Postby ryanyb » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:38 pm

Different games have different power levels of PR's.

Not every PR should be equal in power. A parity cop is a more mechanically interesting and slightly more powerful version of odd or even night cop. So if you want an invest that's weaker than a full cop but stronger than an odd or even cop, you may opt to run a parity cop.
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