kosmo16 wrote:Backed out from voting Soul, but it was more like their figure out that Soul is a newbie and not because of pressure of the Town.
On the contrary Ymirr's interaction with Soul yielded no relevant information in my opinion, and as Ymirr claimed the vote was "necessary to draw alignment indicative information" when in fact it was much more trivial I'd argue there was no actual revelation.
When did I say it was necessary? I added a vote to the wagon and my reason was that I thought the wagon was generating good responses so I added to it.
Now about my vote not actually doing anything. Looking back, these are the two reactions from soul from my vote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Ymirr wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Ymirr wrote:/vote soulshade
And I ask why? I gave my reasoning but you didn't.
If you don't have "clues" the logical thing to do is make some. Voting someone for that reason isn't going to help do that, and you should know it.
And what are you doing? I wasn't randomly voting, I was voting someone who voted me. They seem the most scummiest right now (in my eyes).
Soulshade55r wrote:
Ymirr wrote:1. I'm getting a better idea of whether you are scum or not. 2. That's a pretty bad reason for a scum read, and it makes more sence from a scum perspective.
1. Sure you are 2. Not a scum read maybe they shouldn't of voted me for no real reason
Why are you randomly defending them? When I vote someone for a not perfect reason it's a issue I'm "scum" but when others do it they are innocent?
I unvoted after this. It may or may not have been too early, but I did think he was town at this point and that was all the reactions I needed to read them that way.
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Ymirr wrote:lucky - moderate scum. Only read is a fence sit and everything else is flavor discussion and bringing up an obvious point that is the consensus on this forum.
This is just "lack of pro-town discussion." It's a valid read, but there isn't much to engage. In fact most of your reads followed a contribution assessment.
Good point, I did not articulate my read well. In my post responding to people I explained what was bad about he fencesit read. It isn't just about contribution but the content of the fencesit read. Also I find too much flavor discussion at the beginning being fairly scummy.
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Ymirr wrote:PEdit- The OMGUS vote was sus, it makes more sence for me with scum!soul but after that their reactions felt honest and in general I think scum would be more defensive or use more AtE. I know this isn't a solid read but I'm sure I could dig up some posts to say specifically why I think they are town.
This imply you need a reaction to your vote in order to conclude his alignment, hence those reactions are necessary to draw said information. If you're asking if you specifically said the word necessary, then no, but your posts draw upon that implicit premise.
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Ymirr wrote:Good point, I did not articulate my read well. In my post responding to people I explained what was bad about he fencesit read. It isn't just about contribution but the content of the fencesit read. Also I find too much flavor discussion at the beginning being fairly scummy.
Yeah once you resurfaced a quote there was something established to respond to, but not any earlier.
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Ymirr wrote:1. I'm not exactly sure that implies I needed a reaction, but there was a reaction and I thought that reaction was towny.
In my own error, I realized I used the word "vote" which is incorrect; it makes it out to be you knew your vote would produce an indicative reaction which is incorrect.
If we assume Soul never reacted to your vote, would you still have town leaned Soul?
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I don't know, it depends on what else happened and what soul had said instead about other things. If we assume soul stayed silent for a while, probably not.
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Ok I'm reading over the chat log for a bit I finding Ymmir to be less scummy right now and I'm un-voting for now, I can vote last minute if I want. /Unvote
I'm going through the whole chat log soon to properly know who I should vote for. Sorry for not being helpful btw, I'm not the greatest at "scum reading"
Soulshade55r wrote:I finding Ymmir to be less scummy right now and I'm un-voting for now, I can vote last minute if I want.
I partially agree. A lot of Ymirr's posts were damage control, but that is completely understandable seeing he is a leading wagon. He explained a bit of his posts, but I am still waiting on more for the sake of being thorough.
I am going to be doing a large PbPA on Ymirr & roz in a bit.
FM Star Collection Spoiler:Trolled by the League of Losers Spoiler:
Keep in mind these are PbPA walls: they're going to summarize and repeat a lot of stuff, so try not to clog discussion by addressing repeated arguments.
FMLSheWas12 wrote:
Ymirr wrote:It isn't a good reason but they are standing by their vote and what they said before which is something I was looking for in this wagon
Soulshade doesn't seem to know the FM meta where naked votes are common and something that is accepted (and I would that is a good thing). This falls under their paradigm where providing reasons is all important and i see them as town trying to push that mindset to help the town.
What I took from this post (quotes removed):
Soulshade stood by his reasoning, despite being somewhat irrational.
Soulshade is unfamiliar of the acceptability of naked votes, leading to said irrationality.
Soulshade is coming from a town perspective by insisting reasoning should accompany votes.
For reference.
Spoiler:
Soulshade55r wrote:
M4xwell wrote:FeelsDotaMan. Carry train incoming.
/vote shilster
Seems a little random. Any good reasons for voting?
In context M4x voted when Shil hadn't posted at all. This already supports Soul is unfamiliar with naked votes, expecting reasoning.
Soulshade55r wrote:All I'm saying for now I'm pretty useless.
Soulshade55r wrote:/RHawkeye Don't know why you'd vote me up based on that statement but sure.
He first attempts to vote Hawk, again for lack of reasoning, although he seemed to believe his soft claim was the driving force, for whatever reason.
Soulshade55r wrote:Because I can vote someone each day while I deem them not super suspicious (Right now) they seem to be the most suspicious out of everyone, I can easily change my vote to someone else or un-vote if I wanted to.
He stands by the idea Hawk is the most suspicious for not voting him without reason, presumably because the lack of information was suspicious to him.
FMLSheWas12 wrote:In other words, you find him the most suspicious [because he voted you]?
Soulshade55r wrote:Yeah basically. (I don't really have any clues lol)
I rephrased that in simpler terms as described before, and he corroborates this. He stood by his reasoning in three difference occurrences. In those five first posts from Soul, I met all three criterion that summed up Ymirr's end-analysis post.
Spoiler:
Ymirr wrote:/vote soulshade
Ymirr submitted a vote right after all this was established, then rehashed the current events. I think that once submitting this vote, Ymirr would have a working understanding of what Soul had posted earlier, perhaps Ymirr hadn't fully analyzed his ISO but there are reasons I think otherwise.
Ymirr wrote:PEdit- The OMGUS vote was sus, it makes more sence for me with scum!soul but after that their reactions felt honest and in general I think scum would be more defensive or use more AtE. I know this isn't a solid read but I'm sure I could dig up some posts to say specifically why I think they are town.
This post made it ought to be the OMGUS vote warranted a vote, which I find controversial. Incorporating AtE and defensiveness, which generally make arguments appear suspicious, not being present shouldn't really be the leading factor to support towniness because that's not looking at the big picture.
I'd say not having the reasons FOR supporting towniness is sketchy. It didn't require digging up posts, just one or two brief sentences.
Ymirr wrote:1. I'm getting a better idea of whether you are scum or not. 2. That's a pretty bad reason for a scum read, and it makes more sence from a scum perspective.
1. is redeeming in hind-sight since at least it could suggest Ymirr wasn't out for blood from the get-go, but 2. sets the tone fairly strictly, which leads to:
Ymirr wrote:I'm not defending anyone. Your reason felt scummy, but bad reasons in general doesn't not necessarily indicate scum, it depends on the reason.
I also find these thoughts conflict. They're not absolutely contradictory but Ymirr stated it "depends on the reason" to determine if his read is scum indicative, but from what I could see, the reason never changed mid-way; nothing warranted the shift from "more sense from a scum perspective." I think the backpedal job, the build-up of reasoning that lead to a supposed town lean on Soul, was done over a drawn out period with a few inconsistencies. I think the initial push was opportunistic and scum motivated because of this.
I feel this hasn't been addressed enough, so it would be helpful if Ymirr did so, even if you end up repeating yourself a little.
Spoiler:
Ymirr wrote:lucky - moderate scum. Only read is a fence sit and everything else is flavor discussion and bringing up an obvious point that is the consensus on this forum. I'd vote for lucky but I see no point in that vote rn so I'll start looking for something else PEdit - wow lucky posted and it's content but /vote lucky
Ymirr posted a readslist and made a move on lucky. I had asserted the pressure seemed extremely lackluster and half-baked.
Ymirr wrote:
Ymirr wrote:moderate scum. Only read is a fence sit and everything else is flavor discussion and bringing up an obvious point that is the consensus on this forum.
The point I was referring to was one of the million replies to kosmo's color coded list of players by activity saying that activity is NAI, and the fencesit was this:
lucky wrote:In regardings to Soul, I am not Town reading them yet I’m not really scum reading them. They seem like a newbie at the moment. I do feel like their reactions and words are coming from someone who has a lot of emotion and doesn’t fully know what they are doing though a few of their wording (which others have pointed out) are worded weirdly (sort of like opportunistic).
I really didn't like this as it seemed like fencesitting scum who didn't know what to say about a topic (possible scumbuddy???). Up to this point it was the only post that mentioned their reads and I really would have liked for them to come up with something better.
He admitted to have needed more information with the vote, which I'll accept and I thought his read on lucky was pretty decent. The vibe Ymirr got from the fence-sitting read cited here is reasonable.
Ymirr wrote:/unvote /vote elusive
Good wagon to help focus town because poly discussion is zzz
Really if your asked to contribute why don't you contribute???
He voted Elusive, and I felt his reasoning to be poor. He's basically saying "why not just contribute?" He is voting Mike now off personal preference, it is of subjective matter so not much to affirm or critique there. Just an overview of uncertain vote movement.
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In response to a post from AFTRHR. This post is kind of lame and pings as a scum entry post. He never bothered elaborating or reading into AFTR further either.
roz1roz wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:That is true. I wish I could finish it right now, because I've seen this kind of scenario. We will waste a day on building a wagon on the most controversial person, who at the end of the day will be lynched. Flip will show they were Town.
Not sure if town or mafia going for credit, but I support the idea anyway.
This one is gut. The former of the comma sounded unnecessary and weird. I could imagine this from buddies, or a neutral afraid to be associated.
roz1roz wrote:As of the whole Soulshad3r situation - I'm willing to just accept it and not touch it in next +-2 days. Not that I trust his claim, cause there is many possibilities why he did it, both as town and scum. (like I claimed citizen as BG in Ultiix's multiball, when mayor was still alive)
It's just, that there is nothing suspicious in his play apart of it.
This is somewhat interesting -- he only acknowledges Soul's claim, nothing about his reactions, as if constituting a reason to let the slot go unread. He admits the claim could go either way. Of course he isn't compelled to immediately sort the claim, but this follows the pattern of unproductive throw-away posts. A small ensemble of posts that all ping individually. I cropped a few posts that seemed like game theory, or weren't particularly relevant to this game, not AI.
Spoiler:
roz1roz wrote:You are overdefensive of RHawkeye. Seriously.
Especialy that I wanted to see theirs reaction, start some discussion with them, and see how much does I like my vote on them. As for reason behind voting, I voted them for something much stupider then everyone else.
Again this is kind of dumb to be expecting an indicative reaction, but whatever.
roz1roz wrote:
RHawkeye wrote:I'm scared to open my role card in case I rolled Yasuo.
RHawkeye wrote:DAYVIG ME I OPENED MY ROLECARD AND I ROLLED FUCKING YASUO
I don't like it cause of "didn't read the rolecard" part. I don't like it cause what's the chance that someone who didn't see a rolecard guessed theirs flavor, when there is over 130 champions in LoL.
I'm pretty sure that was planned and I don't like it. NEither do I really like future posts, but they fall into "meh" category anyway.
This is somewhat unusual to be voting someone for, even if you're not scum-reading said person. It doesn't create much opportunity for an indicative response, at best you're calling someone out on their comedic gimmick. Casting aside a huge bulk of their ISO as "meh" doesn't open up for pressure.
roz1roz wrote:I have other question. Why are you asking so many questions about stuff wich not always is needed. I mean... questions help solve the situation, but they are not a content in itself.
I find it puzzling that someone is being almost interrogated for asking too many questions, unless they're explicitly shown to be useless.
roz1roz wrote:Out of your 40 posts, there are 11 questions for people to explain theirs sentences or about theirs opinion. It would be really cool if you had a bit actual opinions on your own as well. But most of your posts are... let's call it facts, they are something wich is truth, some explaining, some statements wich people believe in, like "We are lynching", "Trying to dictate PR actions even hypothetically is a bad idea", "Nolynching gives us no info", "I don't like being misrepresented". But they... don't really relate to game in any AI way.
Only opinions your ISO have is stuff like... calling something fake and not give any reasoning. Saying you would think of voting M4xwell and not give any reasoning.
That's pretty bad from the person who is trying to ask others to explain everything, to not give any reasoning themself.
So yeah, let me ask again here. Why are you asking people for reasonings if you usually avoid to give your own to begin with.
Asking a question for elaboration on their statements and opinions doesn't sound unnecessary at all, in fact I'd argue it is helpful. This shouldn't be regulated.
roz also goes into depth about statements that are described as "truths" about the game, but not relevant to game solving. I agree, but you've also a fair share of similar posts, when you state to veto kosmos' game theory/strategy. They re-correct first principles that aren't efficient while simultaneously being accepted. I think this is pretty important to clarify because it can apply to analyzing town and scum motivation.
This only becomes an issue when the player isn't contributing.
roz1roz wrote:Yeah, exactly. You explained when you was misinterpreted, not earlier. And while I agree that sometimes there is a reason to not instantly give reasoning, I also think that you are leaving some statements unjustified too often. It's kinda like going AMA. Don't expect waiting to be asked to explain is a good way, cause it's not. If you have a case on someone, use it.
As for first quote - yea, but that's still not content. Stating obvious stuff can be also made by mafia, trying to get more posts.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
I don't say it's very AI, as it's day 1, and most people didn't bother yet, but still... You are trying and not trying in the same time and it's bothering me.
He is basically saying "you're not giving reasoning" as if to assess the quality of his contribution; if you want reasoning, ask. That is what Hawk has been doing after all, but you seemed to be critiquing that too. I kind of feel disgusting after that, because I feel the second half of this spoiler was just giving roz advice. Nevertheless, this push just seems counter-productive in the whole scheme of things, but that is it; definitely anti-town, not too sure if it is scum motivated. I was somewhat expecting to still have a case on roz, but this ended up being weak because it relied on the assumption roz was scum reading Hawk. meh.
I could charge roz with bloating his ISO to appear like he's contributing, that seems to be the case 100%. It could be prod-dodging for IRL reasons though, which is where the argument becomes fuzzy and full of WIFOM.
FM Star Collection Spoiler:Trolled by the League of Losers Spoiler:
@Ymirr I suggest you check out my other games since that read that you think is fencesitty is how a lot of reads turn out when I’m not sure about someone.
lucky333123 wrote:@Ymirr I suggest you check out my other games since that read that you think is fencesitty is how a lot of reads turn out when I’m not sure about someone.
This is true tbf although I feel you usually lean slightly, ever so slightly, more often.
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Soulshade55r wrote:I try to contribute but my contributions are pretty crap and I've been lacking right now.
I understand what you mean, and i would argue that your contributions are not really that bas. Probs better than mine. Also for chubby voting me because of my reaction to cmit ovting me, i clearly explained myself after.
Ok so I'm going to review each persons posts, and if I think they are scummy or not Town read = most likely are town Semi Town Read = More likely townie then scum Neutral Read = Not scummy but not townie Semi scum read = they act slightly like a scum Scum read = They seem very scummy Soulshade55r (Myself) - Self defendent posts but most of there (My) Contribuitons haven't helped much. [Town read cuz I saw my role card -_-] cmitc1 - there posts seem fine while they have no MASSIVE contributions but they give there opinion on most things [Semi town read] lucky333123 - They have small contributions and such but haven't really posted all that much [Neutral Read] Shilster - They seem to push on people (me in this case) for reasons that don't quite add up also they do not contribute, they just apparently have a lack motivation [Scum Read] EvilDeanius0 - They also have some pretty small contributions somewhat helpful [Neutral read] RHawkeye - Very helpful been prussuring suspcious users who post content that may seem odd/strange [Town read] ChamAlien - Decent posts not afraid of sharing opinions and some minnor contributions [Semi town read] murat1996 - While they have a lot of posts they are very short, a lot of opinions I don't really see any big contributions [Neutral read] kosmo16 - Some pretty useful things they have said they also are pretty active, they don't come across has scum to me [Semi town read] FMLSheWas12 -They had overall good posts nothing comes across has "scummy" [Semi town read] ElusiveBelle - They don't post much useful things but I don't neccery see them posting any scummy or suspicous posts [Semi town read] M4xwell/BojackHoresman - I am unsure they seem to be sheeping a lot and following a majority, they really don't post anything useful [Semi scum read] roz1roz - Personally unsure on this one they seem somewhat helpful [Neutral read] polypies73 - Early game they where not posting but now they seem to be helpful they come across townie-ish to me [Semi town read] MichaelgRook - Posts are pretty suspicous and not enough contributions also uses crappy ways to defend themseleves [Semi scum read] Ymirr - They haven't posted much but looking back at it they have some helpful posts to take in consideration [Semi town read] AFTRHR - They had a post that was extreemly helpful but they seem a bit quite [Semi town read] ChubbyMooshroom9/Lemonmader666 - Lemons posts where pretty "scummy" but chubby seems pretty townie so it's confusing. [Neutral read] Nopingout/MetrionIsANerd - I don't have much to go off here, Nopingout seems to not help a lot. [Neutral read]
Soulshade55r wrote:Ok so I'm going to review each persons posts, and if I think they are scummy or not Town read = most likely are town Semi Town Read = More likely townie then scum Neutral Read = Not scummy but not townie Semi scum read = they act slightly like a scum Scum read = They seem very scummy Soulshade55r (Myself) - Self defendent posts but most of there (My) Contribuitons haven't helped much. [Town read cuz I saw my role card -_-] cmitc1 - there posts seem fine while they have no MASSIVE contributions but they give there opinion on most things [Semi town read] lucky333123 - They have small contributions and such but haven't really posted all that much [Neutral Read] Shilster - They seem to push on people (me in this case) for reasons that don't quite add up also they do not contribute, they just apparently have a lack motivation [Scum Read] EvilDeanius0 - They also have some pretty small contributions somewhat helpful [Neutral read] RHawkeye - Very helpful been prussuring suspcious users who post content that may seem odd/strange [Town read] ChamAlien - Decent posts not afraid of sharing opinions and some minnor contributions [Semi town read] murat1996 - While they have a lot of posts they are very short, a lot of opinions I don't really see any big contributions [Neutral read] kosmo16 - Some pretty useful things they have said they also are pretty active, they don't come across has scum to me [Semi town read] FMLSheWas12 -They had overall good posts nothing comes across has "scummy" [Semi town read] ElusiveBelle - They don't post much useful things but I don't neccery see them posting any scummy or suspicous posts [Semi town read] M4xwell/BojackHoresman - I am unsure they seem to be sheeping a lot and following a majority, they really don't post anything useful [Semi scum read] roz1roz - Personally unsure on this one they seem somewhat helpful [Neutral read] polypies73 - Early game they where not posting but now they seem to be helpful they come across townie-ish to me [Semi town read] MichaelgRook - Posts are pretty suspicous and not enough contributions also uses crappy ways to defend themseleves [Semi scum read] Ymirr - They haven't posted much but looking back at it they have some helpful posts to take in consideration [Semi town read] AFTRHR - They had a post that was extreemly helpful but they seem a bit quite [Semi town read] ChubbyMooshroom9/Lemonmader666 - Lemons posts where pretty "scummy" but chubby seems pretty townie so it's confusing. [Neutral read] Nopingout/MetrionIsANerd - I don't have much to go off here, Nopingout seems to not help a lot. [Neutral read]
Honestly, I’m basically thinking pretty much excatly the same as this. I don’t see anything wrong with this wall.