9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Game Over (Town Wins!)

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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:34 am

alouvre wrote:but how the hell is that contradictory at all?

First he talks about James and his shitty plays.

Then he says that there's better things to talk about than James and his shitty plays.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:35 am

alouvre wrote:yes james I am still extremely salty

if the tpwr wants to reveal, then that's fine, but some kids just aren't up to leading the town y'know; they just prefer working back there somewhere

anyway I still don't get the "save your night results" thing because I can't really think of anything that would kill us if we said it in our first post

this was probably explained a while ago but I forgot so refreshen me

JackoDerp wrote:I'm sure there are better things to discuss than being salty at James for his..... confusing plays.

no, never

Kirize12 wrote:Kinda contradicting yourself there, no? You say that James is making a classic nonsensical D1 hardclaim, but then you said that there's better things to discuss than being salty at James for his confusing plays.

sorry but what


If they're not up to playing their role, then they should replace out.

Every night result is just more info for scum. Arguing that it's benefit to scum is negligible is besides the point when there is no benefit for town in making the results public (as opposed to giving them to a confirmed town).
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:36 am

ElusiveBelle wrote:Seems "getting the ball rolling" turned more into rolling a snowball down a hill having it turn into a monster boulder of snow.

Kirize from what I know from reading past games is just being Kirize, but still it's a tad abrasive right out of the starting gates. Given I have no experience with either of the parties involved in this, I'll withhold pushing into it until there is more stable ground to base accusations on.

As for the comments about the town power confirming into Day 2. This comes off a bit strange to me, as others have said it puts a lot of pressure onto the town power and makes a perfect target for everyone. Not to mention it will put a lot of town focus onto them during the night which leaves Mafia and Neutrals more free reign to target others as they are less likely to be watched or protected. We don't want to make Town's Strongest player a target while simultaneously making everyone else that can still be just as helpful less protected.


Arguing that the town power shouldn't reveal because they could be targeted is like arguing that antibiotics should never be used because it's increase immunity.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby PokemonKidRyan » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:38 am

James2 wrote:
ElusiveBelle wrote:Seems "getting the ball rolling" turned more into rolling a snowball down a hill having it turn into a monster boulder of snow.

Kirize from what I know from reading past games is just being Kirize, but still it's a tad abrasive right out of the starting gates. Given I have no experience with either of the parties involved in this, I'll withhold pushing into it until there is more stable ground to base accusations on.

As for the comments about the town power confirming into Day 2. This comes off a bit strange to me, as others have said it puts a lot of pressure onto the town power and makes a perfect target for everyone. Not to mention it will put a lot of town focus onto them during the night which leaves Mafia and Neutrals more free reign to target others as they are less likely to be watched or protected. We don't want to make Town's Strongest player a target while simultaneously making everyone else that can still be just as helpful less protected.


Arguing that the town power shouldn't reveal because they could be targeted is like arguing that antibiotics should never be used because it's increase immunity.

James actually made a good post
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby ElusiveBelle » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:38 am

James2 wrote:
Arguing that the town power shouldn't reveal because they could be targeted is like arguing that antibiotics should never be used because it's increase immunity.


That line of thinking completely ignores the arguments other side of the coin, it still leaves everyone else more vulnerable. This line of thought is saying literally everyone but the Town Power is expendable.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby alouvre » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:40 am

@kirize: oh. k. didn't think of it that way. meh, doesn't seem indicative to me

@elusivebelle: if you think kirize is just being kirize, what's bothering you about him?

@james: tpwr isn't equal to a leader. town has won plenty games where the tpwr didn't reveal right off the bat. as for the results... uh... ok, whatever floats your boat. you also have to take into consideration the general competence of the tpwr too; personal experience gg

this happened in cfm 12 mates and I don't recall the tpwr revealing in that game either, at least until much later — just use common sense and we'll be fine.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby Tiltedcomedian » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:42 am

Let's ride the TPower to victory. /s

Apparently he's forgotten that in CFM 12 the Town Power didn't reveal and Town still won. I should know.

So let's just ignore him altogether.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby ElusiveBelle » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:44 am

alouvre wrote:@elusivebelle: if you think kirize is just being kirize, what's bothering you about him?


The other games I have seen Kirize act like this did not have roles like Jester and Executioner available, that is a big difference considering the level of aggression right out of the gates. Just something to me more cautious about rather than write it off as "Kirize being Kirize."
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:44 am

James2 wrote:
alouvre wrote:yes james I am still extremely salty

if the tpwr wants to reveal, then that's fine, but some kids just aren't up to leading the town y'know; they just prefer working back there somewhere

anyway I still don't get the "save your night results" thing because I can't really think of anything that would kill us if we said it in our first post

this was probably explained a while ago but I forgot so refreshen me

JackoDerp wrote:I'm sure there are better things to discuss than being salty at James for his..... confusing plays.

no, never

Kirize12 wrote:Kinda contradicting yourself there, no? You say that James is making a classic nonsensical D1 hardclaim, but then you said that there's better things to discuss than being salty at James for his confusing plays.

sorry but what


If they're not up to playing their role, then they should replace out.

Every night result is just more info for scum. Arguing that it's benefit to scum is negligible is besides the point when there is no benefit for town in making the results public (as opposed to giving them to a confirmed town).

You're joking right?
There is no "tried and true" way to playing a role. Playstyles vary. Town Powers may have different ways of playing their roles. Some of them prefer to stay in the sidelines until the time is right, and some of them prefer to out as soon as there's no chance of Agent.
"Every night result is just more info for scum" Every hidden night result is also less info for town so what's your point? You're trying to convince us to hide our night results, which I don't want. There is a benefit for town to publicly declaring their night results, and that is more information flowing into the town's hands.

The only Town Power I'd want to reveal Day 2 is Mayor, and only after 25 hours pass so Agent may not tap.

and...this is why i want james dayvigged...
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby LordofFail » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:46 am

James2 wrote:Kirize is so salty.

Anyway, I'm a (redacted).

Seriously though, I'm going to try to play this game without any crazy gambits.



WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JAMES2??


James2 wrote:Getting to business, twenty four hours into day two, we should identify the town power by everyone either affirming being the town power or denying it. If there's only one claimant, then they'll be confirmed without even having to tell their role. Since we have a town power to lead us, we should withhold our night results until we can give them to the town power.

Also, in order to allow differentiability (and thus make it easier for people to confirm themselves), any vigilantes or firebrands should put some large number in their death note for ease of identification. Even if you're not choosing to kill anyone, a witch could still force a kill, so it is imperative that you put a number in your DN. Firebrands need to be sure to do this by the end of night one, vigilantes must do this by the end of night two.



Oh wait, nevermind, hes back to his blissfully tactically impaired self again. Welcome back James, care to hardclaim now?


But since James insists that the Town Power should hardclaim, I may as well reveal...

Spoiler: I am the Not-Mayor!
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby alouvre » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:47 am

ElusiveBelle wrote:The other games I have seen Kirize act like this did not have roles like Jester and Executioner available, that is a big difference considering the level of aggression right out of the gates. Just something to me more cautious about rather than write it off as "Kirize being Kirize."

How does that tie into the presence of a exe/jester, specifically?
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:54 am

ElusiveBelle wrote:
James2 wrote:
Arguing that the town power shouldn't reveal because they could be targeted is like arguing that antibiotics should never be used because it's increase immunity.


That line of thinking completely ignores the arguments other side of the coin, it still leaves everyone else more vulnerable. This line of thought is saying literally everyone but the Town Power is expendable.

The Town Power is the most important role. They should get priority protection after they reveal.

FirelightKnight wrote:Honestly, the town power should only claim if they're completely confident they can lead. And even then, perhaps it's not the greatest idea D1.
If TPow rolls Jailor or Ret, I'd honestly prefer they kept quiet for now. It's their choice, but when the protective dies, which could be N1 or N5 for all we know, they'd be the next target for scum, and I'd rather not rely on a random town being protective. Plus, if Consort rolls it'd be nice for the Ret (if they exist.) to actually be able to revive someone without being constantly roleblocked.

+The stuff ElusiveBelle said.

I get what James is saying, but is it really worth risking it before we need it? A dead town power is completely useless. The same goes for any role in the game, really. We don't need it right now, and chances are we're not going to need it tomorrow, so yeah.
Also.. how does knowing who slept peacefully and who didn't benefit scum at all? Yeah, its more info, but really what are they going to do with it?


Even if the Town Power were to die night two, which is unlikely, they'd still have helped us by pointing out who to look at as scum etc.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:55 am

LordofFail wrote:
James2 wrote:Kirize is so salty.

Anyway, I'm a (redacted).

Seriously though, I'm going to try to play this game without any crazy gambits.



WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JAMES2??


James2 wrote:Getting to business, twenty four hours into day two, we should identify the town power by everyone either affirming being the town power or denying it. If there's only one claimant, then they'll be confirmed without even having to tell their role. Since we have a town power to lead us, we should withhold our night results until we can give them to the town power.

Also, in order to allow differentiability (and thus make it easier for people to confirm themselves), any vigilantes or firebrands should put some large number in their death note for ease of identification. Even if you're not choosing to kill anyone, a witch could still force a kill, so it is imperative that you put a number in your DN. Firebrands need to be sure to do this by the end of night one, vigilantes must do this by the end of night two.



Oh wait, nevermind, hes back to his blissfully tactically impaired self again. Welcome back James, care to hardclaim now?


But since James insists that the Town Power should hardclaim, I may as well reveal...

Spoiler: I am the Not-Mayor!


Don't disclaim yet.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:57 am

And all this stuff about the TPower's competency is besides the point. Obama* is an incompetent fool, but we're still better off with him as President then we would be under anarchy.

*If you're a lib then you can pretend I said Bush.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:58 am

Fire,

As a confirmed town, we can trust the Town Power with our roles and information.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby ElusiveBelle » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:58 am

alouvre wrote:How does that tie into the presence of a exe/jester, specifically?

You mean other than the very blatant targeting of one player in specific?

Kirize likes to play abrasive but coming out of the gates like that before the offending player can even make a post, as others have said, comes off a bit skeptical. It could be Kirize being Kirize, that is a very likely scenario, that doesn't excuse the caution that should be taken regardless until more concrete evidence comes forward

James2 wrote:The Town Power is the most important role. They should get priority protection after they reveal.


This is very true, the Town Power should have priority protection. That is why them revealing so early is a bad thing, it leaves everyone else vulnerable with close to no protection.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby alouvre » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:00 pm

don't play the politics card, my good man

@Elusive: Oh, that. Hm, policy kill questions are always going to be targeting a certain player, but I see what you mean now.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:01 pm

ElusiveBelle wrote:
alouvre wrote:How does that tie into the presence of a exe/jester, specifically?

You mean other than the very blatant targeting of one player in specific?

Kirize likes to play abrasive but coming out of the gates like that before the offending player can even make a post, as others have said, comes off a bit skeptical. It could be Kirize being Kirize, that is a very likely scenario, that doesn't excuse the caution that should be taken regardless until more concrete evidence comes forward

James2 wrote:The Town Power is the most important role. They should get priority protection after they reveal.


This is very true, the Town Power should have priority protection. That is why them revealing so early is a bad thing, it leaves everyone else vulnerable with close to no protection.


They need protection because of their value to town. Their value primarily comes from their leadership abilities, which are null if they don't reveal.

And besides, we do in fact have the means to protect them.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:02 pm

alouvre wrote:don't play the politics card, my good man

@Elusive: Oh, that. Hm, policy kill questions are always going to be targeting a certain player, but I see what you mean now.


This is what I call the "I can't hear you fallacy".

Referencing politics doesn't nullify the point, and it's pertinent because this game involves a type of politics.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:04 pm

James2 wrote:And all this stuff about the TPower's competency is besides the point. Obama* is an incompetent fool, but we're still better off with him as President then we would be under anarchy.

*If you're a lib then you can pretend I said Bush.

It is not besides the point. The Town power may be...well, Town Power, but they do not command. If you want the Town Power to call all of the town's shots and not give anyone else a say in the matter, then you're bad and you should feel bad.

:o oshitapageget
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:04 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
James2 wrote:And all this stuff about the TPower's competency is besides the point. Obama* is an incompetent fool, but we're still better off with him as President then we would be under anarchy.

*If you're a lib then you can pretend I said Bush.

It is not besides the point. The Town power may be...well, Town Power, but they do not command. If you want the Town Power to call all of the town's shots and not give anyone else a say in the matter, then you're bad and you should feel bad.

:o oshitapageget

Whoops, no pageget. (._. )
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby James2 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:05 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
James2 wrote:And all this stuff about the TPower's competency is besides the point. Obama* is an incompetent fool, but we're still better off with him as President then we would be under anarchy.

*If you're a lib then you can pretend I said Bush.

It is not besides the point. The Town power may be...well, Town Power, but they do not command. If you want the Town Power to call all of the town's shots and not give anyone else a say in the matter, then you're bad and you should feel bad.

:o oshitapageget


Could you answer my earlier question?
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:07 pm

James2 wrote:
ElusiveBelle wrote:
alouvre wrote:How does that tie into the presence of a exe/jester, specifically?

You mean other than the very blatant targeting of one player in specific?

Kirize likes to play abrasive but coming out of the gates like that before the offending player can even make a post, as others have said, comes off a bit skeptical. It could be Kirize being Kirize, that is a very likely scenario, that doesn't excuse the caution that should be taken regardless until more concrete evidence comes forward

James2 wrote:The Town Power is the most important role. They should get priority protection after they reveal.


This is very true, the Town Power should have priority protection. That is why them revealing so early is a bad thing, it leaves everyone else vulnerable with close to no protection.


They need protection because of their value to town. Their value primarily comes from their leadership abilities, which are null if they don't reveal.

And besides, we do in fact have the means to protect them.

Town Power =/= leadership ability. They may be the leader, but if they're incompetent we will not let them lead.

Honestly, I'm done arguing with you over this. If you wanna blindly follow the Town Power, kindly follow him into a Veteran and save us the trouble of having to deal with your bullshit.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby alouvre » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:08 pm

Non-TPwr town that can also easily confirm themselves:

1. Non-shitty escort
2. Doctor with successful heal
3. Vigilante
4. Non-shitty firebrand
5. Veterab
6. Transporter

every other role can also be proven under circumstantial evidence as well so idk what your point is

James2 wrote:This is what I call the "I can't hear you fallacy".

Referencing politics doesn't nullify the point, and it's pertinent because this game involves a type of politics.

And what if you're an anarchist? Then it's still a matter of opinion.

All in all it just boils down to the tpwr's decision on whether to reveal or not.
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Re: 9D (CL) | Nostalgia | Day One (Another Tale)

Postby LordofFail » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:11 pm

James2 wrote:And all this stuff about the TPower's competency is besides the point. Obama* is an incompetent fool, but we're still better off with him as President then we would be under anarchy.

*If you're a lib then you can pretend I said Bush.


I am Canadian and do not get your analogy because I dont give two shits about United States politics.
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