9B (SP) | Spilled Drink | Game Over (Town Wins)

[leyva45]

I have a void scum read (becuase that's the strongest read you should give), pecentages are trash.

I don't like how you omgus'd CJ, who I'm pretty sure is town, and how you've self meta'd and upon many other of reasons, read through your posts.

Interesting, then you should know my playstyle/tendencies as town better than most as you did host and apparently noticed how I played for CFM13 as town.

/vote Taylork12

Speak. Now. You're more active as town, from seeing you play from a moderator view (CFM13), and from a player view in multiple games, you usually post more.

As scum though, I'm seeing what I see right now, dodging the thread. I've seen you lurk multiple times, and when you've posted it's been useless. Your posts are trash, and you overall play right now is garbage.

I'm not OMGUSing right now, but upon comparing this to your scumread for me in CFM14, I'm scumreading you now.
You're also implying from (becuase that's the strongest read you should give) that if you didn't have this belief then I'd likely be a higher(scummier) scum read.
And if I remember correctly, you threw around the phrase "they're scum" "They are scum" and similar phrases a lot in CFM14 with few cares about how scummy a scumreading should be.
Why do you care now, but not then?

lol it was a pressure vote? ? i dont even know what your logic is trying to prove??

[taylork2]

I have a void scum read (becuase that's the strongest read you should give), pecentages are trash.

I don't like how you omgus'd CJ, who I'm pretty sure is town, and how you've self meta'd and upon many other of reasons, read through your posts.

Interesting, then you should know my playstyle/tendencies as town better than most as you did host and apparently noticed how I played for CFM13 as town.

/vote Taylork12

Speak. Now. You're more active as town, from seeing you play from a moderator view (CFM13), and from a player view in multiple games, you usually post more.

As scum though, I'm seeing what I see right now, dodging the thread. I've seen you lurk multiple times, and when you've posted it's been useless. Your posts are trash, and you overall play right now is garbage.

I'm not OMGUSing right now, but upon comparing this to your scumread for me in CFM14, I'm scumreading you now.
You're also implying from (becuase that's the strongest read you should give) that if you didn't have this belief then I'd likely be a higher(scummier) scum read.
And if I remember correctly, you threw around the phrase "they're scum" "They are scum" and similar phrases a lot in CFM14 with few cares about how scummy a scumreading should be.
Why do you care now, but not then?

lol it was a pressure vote? ? i dont even know what your logic is trying to prove??

You're playing different, your opinion is different, and you're ignoring what you considered not long ago. If I had to make reason out why, I'd say you're a mafia member just giving my scum reading some lovetaps by focusing on why I would be scum and clearly ignoring reasoning you used not long ago in a different game that would suggest differently from now, I know you haven't forgotten it either as you brought up far more recent posts mentioning it as well.
As town in a previous game you stated reasoning for why I would be scum there that runs perpendicular to why I'd be scum here.
But, just considering you were town then, the most logical and straightforward assumption is that you're scum now.
So once again, I'm scumreading you.

[Varanus]

Me reading this thread:

[leyva45]

You're playing different, your opinion is different, and you're ignoring what you considered not long ago. If I had to make reason out why, I'd say you're a mafia member just giving my scum reading some lovetaps by focusing on why I would be scum and clearly ignoring reasoning you used not long ago in a different game that would suggest differently from now, I know you haven't forgotten it either as you brought up far more recent posts mentioning it as well.
As town in a previous game you stated reasoning for why I would be scum there that runs perpendicular to why I'd be scum here.
But, just considering you were town then, the most logical and straightforward assumption is that you're scum now.
So once again, I'm scumreading you.

You're basing a read mainly off of Meta, that's a no-no. Meta is used to contribute to arguments, not to be completely based off of.

I could bring up a post where a used "logic" on D1 of the same game, does that make me town now??

But no one knows what exactly pyro does...

For all we know it could be super town aligned. JS

With a name like Pyro, must be arson.

Xanet, are you suggesting a Town-sided Arson? Sounds interesting actually.

Why did batman say townsided? This can be a NK slip, maybe. I have a reason to suspect batman after looking at this.

Look, if you think a person acting more "logical" in a game is a scumread, you should be playing NFM right now.

@Moonbird

I looked at Creature's ISO, the thing that bothered me that he is actually posting. The posts are mostly shitposts and sheeping on to discussion, and really, I don't know much about creature except that he's an inactive scumfuck, I may go NFM diving to see how he plays.

[leyva45]

SHIT I MISREAD TAYLORKS POST

[leyva45]

SHIT I MISREAD TAYLORKS POST

wait yes my post is right still

for the meta thing.

Who said you weren't posting things that weren't useless?? I didn't

also, why are you scumreading me for using "logic" that's some bad logic right there

[Elastoid]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1IrHFp0kj4v

Okay just got home. I'll look into this more but wanted to post my current thoughts (as of my last post) before I went to work.

With James, you have to consider three options. First, that he's Vigilante, second, that he's Veteran, and third, that he's neither.

James strikes me as a ToS player who wants to carry every game. He would rather throw a game than be mislynched because he wants to be involved in the outcome, and wants to feel like a good, influential player. That makes his idiocy sort of dangerous.

First, if he's neither Vet nor Vig, what does he gain? It's possible he'd think claiming Vig as Citizen would allow him to divert attention and make Witch/Bomber/etc waste time, but that seems unlikely. I'm not leaning towards that. Claiming Vig as scum is a day 1 gambit with little to gain, and it doesn't seem the kind of play a ToS noob would make. If he was scum I'd expect that kind of player to be quiet, not to jump into the spotlight.

Second, if he's Vig, why would he be so upset about my pointing out he might be Vet? In fact, if he was Vig, and then realized "oh shit the Witch is gonna fuck us," the Vet distract would be perfect for him. Absolutely marvelous. He'd jump on the opportunity to muddy the waters and potentially make the Witch think twice. He didn't do that, so I have to assume he's not Vig.

If he's Vet, he WOULD be upset about my outing him. That IS the kind of play a ToS noob would make, trying to carry with a Day 1 bait, and it IS the kind of person who would demand a claim Day 1 while people might still think he's Vig. He's probs a Vet trying to milk the most possible out of his claim by trying to pressure people.

As to anyone saying we should mislynch him -- he has too thoroughly muddied the waters. Because there's potentially town-sided reasons (at least that have been argued) to policy lynch him/deliberate mislynch, we can't even learn anything from his flip or associative tells. Lynching him means losing a town member AND losing valuable information that could be gathered with a true lynch. Even if he were Vig, it'd almost be better to let him shoot me.

[CJBlack44]

I'm not really liking how Elastoid is pretty much only focusing on the James situation. Has he even made any posts not about how bad James is? I know he's Townslipping but damn is he tunneling James hard, and he isn't even breaking much new ground with his posts. It sounds like he's mostly trying to say the same thing over and over with his walls.

It's by far the most significant thing that happened today so it makes sense to me. To be honest I 100% agree with Elastoid's post and his inputs on the James situation. I don't really get the people who go all "ok, James hardclaimed, what an idiot haha let's go do something else". It's not just his claim that fucked us, it's his role and the really, really shitty outcomes this can bring for town. Not to mention, yes, the resources we have to waste on him.

Again, I'm not defending Elastoid - he seems Town to me, but I'm not saying there's no way he can turn out to be Mafia (not really getting a Neutral-vibe from him tbh, he seems very team-oriented to me) - but I feel that he's trying to figure this situation right now, which seems like a healthy priority atm.
That said, it wouldn't hurt if you offered some opinions on other people, Elastoid.

While James is alive, the Witch becomes a higher priority lynch than they would normally be. The Bomber not really since everyone always wants to find the Bomber ASAP anyway, doesn't get any higher than that. But the Witch is way more dangerous in this context IMO. Lynching James isn't really an option - I mean, I'd really love to, but I think it would be a mistake. He's most likely Town so, if anything, he'll at least be useful as a vote if he can't be useful as a player. Also, yes, there is no info to be gained from his lynch.
I also think we'll get a better grip on the best course of action after N1 - we'll see what happens and we go from there. An Escort should 100% RB James, no TP should visit him, other roles would have no reason to visit him. A lookout should watch whoever he\she wants.

As for Creature, I was mistaken about him. I re-read his ISO, the post that gave me the weird vibes was a post where (I thought) he was saying we should let James be controlled by the Witch, but on a second read I realized that it was taken out of context and that's not what he actually said. So for now I have no read on him.

[CJBlack44]

Short last impressions of day 1:

Spoiler: Detemmienation - Casting suspicion onto anyone can be seen as setting up grounds for a mislynch. If he's really Rhazh, nothing scummy about his posts. This is how Rhazh always acts as Town. If he's not Rhazh, he's most likely Scum.

teamalex - one thing that struck me as odd was how he said EVERYONE should be on James to avoid a murder, when the correct course of action (IMO) was to try and determine the best way for Town to protect itself from James's claim with as few resources as possible. Doesn't really have enough posts for me to make a read and I may be exaggerating with the "EVERYONE" post. It's something I found noteworthy anyway *shrug* Null for now, leaning maybe slight Scum.

PersianRugs - For now he strikes me as slight town, compared to his behavior in other games where he was scum. Doesn't have many relevant posts, the only reason I'm mentioning him is because I'm slightly familiar with his meta. Slight Town.

Varanus - I consider Varanus to be a pretty dangerous player - I've seen him play as scum and he's pretty good at looking very townie-like and getting involved and making it seem like his whole purpose in life is to lead the Town to victory. I have no reason to doubt you at the moment, but I will definitely be keeping an eye on you. Slight Town.

James2 - Don't play FM again pls.

TrueGent - already explained. Slight Town.

ItsmeCreature - null, my scumread on him earlier was based on my misinterpretation of a post he made.

Taylork2 - already explained. Slight scum.

Elastoid - feels like he has town's best interests in mind. Doesn't feel Neutral to me, either Town or Mafia. Slight Town.

moonbird - already explained. Slight Town.

I haven't looked much at other people but nobody else stood out to me.

@Eliah - large ass walls is a very subjective term.

[RhazhBash]

Detemmienation - Casting suspicion onto anyone can be seen as setting up grounds for a mislynch. If he's really Rhazh, nothing scummy about his posts. This is how Rhazh always acts as Town. If he's not Rhazh, he's most likely Scum.

What the actual fuck is this even supposed to mean? You're literally saying that I'm scummy because I'm casting suspicion onto people because people only do that as scum trying to mislynch. Like I can't even.

[Elastoid]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0rCxeDLErZg
Okay now that I've had time to reread the thread and take notes... here's what I got.

TrueGent: Town read mostly. It weirded me out when he said "don't point out the vet baits," but in light of later posts it made sense (looks like he's softclaiming? hardclaiming? midclaiming later). He had a good plan and explained it well, and even his calling me out seemed town -- more looking for information than looking for a lynch.
Varanus: Sort of all over the place. I am null reading him just because while he's making sense and advancing the conversation, he hasn't said anything I couldn't see mafia saying.
Moonbird: Helpful to town, but made me raise an eyebrow a couple times. Still looking for opinions on my initial request for Lookout, without providing any herself. My objective of muddying the waters for a Bomber by suggesting Lookout watch me was accomplished, and I backed off, yet MB still trying to generate talk about it (again, without drawing any of her own conclusions). I also consider her calling my post about a James modkill a "cringeworthy suggestion" a misrepresentation, as I clearly state I'm NOT suggesting that. Finally, read Taylor as town, then scum, so neutral? I'm not understanding her stance on Taylor at all. Possible I'm just misreading, I'll check ISO later, but MB is confusing me.
CJ: I see as clearly town.
Taylork: Reminds me of VonAntarctic in the last game I played -- seems to be acting scummy but I'm not really scumreading. Like, he strikes me more as an easily agitated person, than someone who is agitated because he's scum.
DetemmieNation: Initially full of shitpost, but then sunk teeth into a couple of reads and won't let go. Either a town person trying to give someone enough rope to hang themselves, or a mafia member who remembered how to act like town after TG and Eliah called him out. I'm leaning town.
Polyester: Says James is neutral WHAAAA? Seems too eager to jump in line to accuse. I'd love to push Polyester and see what comes out. Possible they say something that in my mind confirms them as town, but for now seems the best lead.
Eliah: Had a couple thoughts that were started and not finished. Hard to put finger on why this bothers me, but it does. Mild scumread.
EvilD: Is he always like this? Classic "Is he scummy or just always this useless" question. Legit don't know.
PersianRugs: When you have an independent thought I'll critique it, but it's like every one of his posts I can find earlier in the thread from someone else.
Moleland: Early shitposting, shut up when shit got real except to make a comment on PL for voting Trump. Scummy.
Mkim: SAY SOMETHING I'M GIVING UP ON YOU.
leyva: I like your approach. I disagree that Taylor is scum but agree that he's scummy and you're pro-info which puts you as pro-town in my eyes.
Jordarrian: what are you even on about? This isn't rifftrax, do you have something or not?
teamalex: Two people have seriously been on the side of James being neutral -- Polyester and alex. I question both of them. Seems scum trying to excuse mislynch almost. Neutral read on James makes very little sense, and I require serious justification for their reasoning otherwise I doubt they really have any.

If I'm forgetting someone they didn't stand out.

[CJBlack44]

Detemmienation - Casting suspicion onto anyone can be seen as setting up grounds for a mislynch. If he's really Rhazh, nothing scummy about his posts. This is how Rhazh always acts as Town. If he's not Rhazh, he's most likely Scum.

What the actual fuck is this even supposed to mean? You're literally saying that I'm scummy because I'm casting suspicion onto people because people only do that as scum trying to mislynch. Like I can't even.

Mostly I just wanted to make you slip that it's really you but eh You do hold the record for most scumreads D1 every game tho.

I am townreading Rhazh Detemmie, his behavior seems like normal Town behavior to me so far.

P-EDIT: Wait, what, where did Poly say that James is Neutral? I JUST went through his ISO and didn't find that. I think the search function isn't functioning very well :-S Can someone link pls?

[CJBlack44]

Considering how many people are saying to lynch James knowing full well he's most likely Town, I doubt the Polyester/Alex thing means anything. Scum would be more likely to just bandwagon a PL instead of actually pushing James as scum.

Anyways, one thing I don't like about that reads list is that you omit 5 people because "They didn't stand out', but a few of your reads on that list are basically saying null because they don't stand out. I can tell that that reads list was completely forced.

"Forced" lolwut. Please learn to read and count. Only 2 people are null on my list - the first is teamalex, who I clearly specified is on the list because ONE comment from him did stand out to me and I found it noteworthy.

The other is Creature who I put on the list with the sole purpose of rectifying my earlier scumread on him.

Other people I have not noticed so I don't have anything to say about them. I didn't go through ALL the ISOs, just most of them and if someone isn't on the list it's because they didn't stand out to me and I didn't read their ISO. It's unlikely I'll be able to read the other people's ISOs seeing as I have to get to work soon.

As to people saying that James is Neutral - that IS odd. Not for the purpose of setting up a mislynch necessarily, it's just a weird statement to make.

P-EDIT: I already answered your question Rhazh.

[CJBlack44]

Oh. Never mind that then. I thought it was me you were talking to.

[Elastoid]

Considering how many people are saying to lynch James knowing full well he's most likely Town, I doubt the Polyester/Alex thing means anything. Scum would be more likely to just bandwagon a PL instead of actually pushing James as scum.

Teamalex specifically says that James isn't mafia or NK, but is probably neutral. Asking for a rationale behind it isn't out of line.

Anyways, one thing I don't like about that reads list is that you omit 5 people because "They didn't stand out', but a few of your reads on that list are basically saying null because they don't stand out. I can tell that that reads list was completely forced.

I didn't start with a list of names, I just took notes as I was going through. Looks like I missed the following note: "Kmenx says to put Escort on" (James). Other than that I've got nothing to say, which is only slightly less than he's had to say.

I didn't mention James in the list because I'd already gone over him.

That leaves what? Three people? No, two, because I'm not going to give reads on myself. Who am I missing?

Creature I don't know. I'll check an ISO but I remember reading his posts and not writing anything -- just didn't have anything to say. I don't know who else I'm missing.

That said, you didn't think too hard on that post, and you know it. Saying I "missed" five people when that five includes James, whom I've made my opinion clear on, and myself, makes it clear that you didn't really consider your own comment before posting.

[CJBlack44]

Can someone link me to that post though pls? The one where Poly says James is Neutral? I can't find it in his ISO

[Elastoid]

Again, James does not have the balls to do this as any kind of scum.

It's not balls.

@Poly: do you believe James is Town, Mafia or Neutral?

Given my experience and his posts here, I think he is a neutral.

[ItsmeCreature]

Don't expect me to make a good reads list. I'd rather discuss 1-2 people at a time.

Also, I feel like I know RhazhBash better than most of you. He's currently playing like he would D1. Let's see how he will play D2.

[Elastoid]

Fair enough Elastoid. I still don't see how you see a connection from 2 people saying James is Neutral when it would be easier for scum to push his lynch as a policy lynch though.

Stop thinking like an experienced player and start thinking like a baddie.

If it were me trying to push a mislynch on James, I'd be taking the "save town from the madman" angle as well, but only because I've thought ahead about what we'd learn from the votes (which is nothing, which is why a lynch of James doesn't make any sense).

If you don't think that far ahead and are worried about how your vote will look, you might hedge your bets by going on record thinking he MIGHT be scum.

Either way, the strategic value of saying he's potentially neutral is moot. They either had a rationale behind their statement, or not. If they have some sort of reasonable justification, even if it's wrong and clearly doesn't make sense, then I'll at least entertain that they might believe what they're saying. If they can't posit a rationale behind their feeling that James is neutral, well then... why did you feel comfortable posting that?

[RhazhBash]

Don't expect me to make a good reads list. I'd rather discuss 1-2 people at a time.

Also, I feel like I know RhazhBash better than most of you. He's currently playing like he would D1. Let's see how he will play D2.

Fyi, Creature doesn't know me as well as he thinks he does.

[ItsmeCreature]

Is there a vigilante guilt?

[CJBlack44]

@Poly: do you believe James is Town, Mafia or Neutral?

Given my experience and his posts here, I think he is a neutral.

Oh, right, I totally forgot he said that, it's on page 10 (still doesn't show up in his ISO for me ).

It's really weird, yeah. Doesn't really strike me as scum-indicative though (Poly's post I mean). Like Rhazh said, scum is much more likely to bandwagon and subtly push than convince the Town that James is a Neutral.

[Elastoid]

People we should be hardcore looking at for inactivity:
mkim, KingofEvil, EvilD, Kmenx, Moleland, Jordarrian.

Given the inexperience of a lot of players here, you can expect some might make the more obvious scum blunders like being inactive. Usually I wouldn't expect an inactivity tell on someone like, say, Arc. But I'd readily believe there's scum in those six people. Particularly people who have shown willingness to post, but not willingness to say anything (EvilD, Moleland).

[ItsmeCreature]

EvilDeanius0 being inactive means he's scum.

[Elastoid]

EvilDeanius0 being inactive means he's scum.

I know you only want to talk about 1-2 people at once, so here's my question:

Do you think we'd be better served trying to pin down opinions from some of the ambiguous people (Eliah, Persian, Polyester, teamalex, Moonbird maybe), or going after the full on inactive people (the six I mentioned previously)?

Which line of inquiry will find the most scum?