TFM18 | AoM: War of the Titans | Titans Win! (World Reborn)

[Neasans]

Pretty sure neither you nor Cow are intent on destroying the evil deities that lurk among us, therefore you are scum. You have spewed FAR too much bullshit at this point.

[Neasans]

You outright refuse to address the big damn holes I found in your argument. How does one get any more scummily dodgy than that?

[Neasans]

Riddle me this if you want a last shot at me ever thinking you could be green - How will you explain your bullshit when you see I am town?

You missed your chance. Anything you say from now on, I will take as the words of confirmed scum.

/unvote

[Elastoid]

Yeah this is going fairly nowhere. All three of them are viable lynch targets. Their defenses, Met/Von subsequent distancing, etc., only solidify my belief that the three of them are scumbuddies. I've got no concern over the order in which they're lynched, so I'm cool jumping on any of those three wagons.

"Fairly going nowhere" translates to "Elastoid is too much of a scumlord to address all the holes I just found in his arguments"

The "holes" you found:

"I don't know what nullo play means." It's a play that is objectively worse than another available play. It's a term that comes from backgammon, I'm pretty sure -- if you are bearing off your last men on 1 and 5 and you roll 51 and play 5/4 4/off, that is objectively worse than the gamewinning 5/off 1/off.

If you can make an anonymous message any time of the day, and get a response, and you use it in the first hour to contact a player who has not posted, asking her role and declaring yourself to be non-town, that is objectively worse than using it later when more is known.

"You don't play this game so what you think is smart is dumb."

The concept is valid no matter where it originates. In other words, you're claiming my argument is fallacious because this is my first FM game. Okay -- so do you believe that the message to you in the first hour was a strong play? You even posit that the person must know you, which means they should probably know how you'd respond -- by posting that the message occurred and refusing to respond directly. So again -- what was this mystery person trying to accomplish?

You say you "risk skirting" ad hominem by dismissing my arguments because of who I am. Yeah, I'd say so.

"You assume you know how the game works, but you don't"

Then please show me the gap in my reasoning.

"You must think I'm dumb."

I'll admit that I'm not painting you in the best light, but again, you seem impervious to logic that doesn't fit a narrative you seem to be pushing. I'd say even smart people aren't immune to mistakes and can subsequently look pretty dumb defending them.


Again, I consider this a pointless exercise -- I'm reading you, Met and Von as scum. I don't expect there will be any scenario in which you say, "hey, you're right, you've got a point." If someone finds an edible looking peanut in the massive turd that is your defense, I'll be sure to try to talk them out of eating it, but don't expect me to go looking myself.

What's your line-one argument? Your best point?

[RetralMega]

I read Neas as Town, so I refuse to vote him without evidence. I'm being stubborn and saying Cy is our BEST lynch target.

[Neasans]

The argument isn't bad because you're new, the argument is bad because it's bad. Faking a message would be stuff of idiots (and my apparent IQ of a banana you keep proposing).

I'll admit that I'm not painting you in the best light, but again, you seem impervious to logic that doesn't fit a narrative you seem to be pushing. I'd say even smart people aren't immune to mistakes and can subsequently look pretty dumb defending them.

there is a line between making mistakes and suffering from a huge case of moronity, you sir, seem to imply I'd suffer from that huge case, because otherwise faking a message would be stupid

oh wait faking a message is stupid in all scenarios!!! I blame my banana IQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 !!

[TheCow]

I say we lynch Nes. She'll probably flip red, and if she flips green, then she can't hold SFM15 over me anymore.

[TheCow]

In any case, Nes, you're implying someone in this game is retarded, so who is this retard?

[Elastoid]

I read Neas as Town, so I refuse to vote him without evidence. I'm being stubborn and saying Cy is our BEST lynch target.

You have attacked anyone who attacked you (with the exception of me, so I guess... thanks?). You went after Cy originally because he RVS voted you. I don't scumread Cy because much of what he did, I was thinking along the same lines.

-- I've seen you twice freak the fuck out when threatened and figured if I know nothing, a random vote on YOU is going to produce more of a response than a random vote on, say, Met or Cow. (It did, by the way, by causing you to claim.)
-- Continuing to push on you could potentially bring out scum who wanted to jump on your wagon. (I was specifically looking at Swords, and when he made it clear he wasn't biting, I unvoted.)
-- He jumps to Von when Von seems like a more worthy suspect. Again, largely to gauge reactions
-- He several times reminds people that plurality lynch means there's no need to hammer, which is a pro-town encouragement of restraint
-- When I say "can everyone chill for a moment so I can read this tonight?" he obligingly unvotes despite previously calling me out for being a rambling idiot. Again, pro-town.

He also specifically discouraged def from voting with him on you, because as he put it, one vote accomplished all he needed. Don't take so much offense at being reaction tested.

Later, Cow pointed at you as the "only one" who could have sent that message -- falsely -- to see if Neasans took the bait. I get that you're not pleased with the concept of being bait, but given your questionable early roleclaim, you were an easy possible scum target for mislynch. You took it personally and called him scum for it.

I'm of the opinion right now that your behavior has certainly been counterproductive, but given everyone's "meh, it's Retral" reaction, I can only assume that this is just what you do, and if there were something different about it, someone might be more pushy. As it is, chill out, don't take reaction tests personally, and stop OMGUS pushing Cy.

[Neasans]

whoever believes I would be enough of an idiot to fake a message has problems in reasoning

also, I'm still holding SFM 15 against you, you literally ruined Town's chances that game by getting yourself mislynched and fucking threatening to roleblock Town Protectives

And I'm green and you're the one pushing the mislynch, so who's the one in the wrong here, huh?

[TheCow]

whoever believes I would be enough of an idiot to fake a message has problems in reasoning

also, I'm still holding SFM 15 against you, you literally ruined Town's chances that game by getting yourself mislynched and fucking threatening to roleblock Town Protectives

And I'm green and you're the one pushing the mislynch, so who's the one in the wrong here, huh?

In any case, Nes, you're implying someone in this game is retarded, so who is this retard?

[Neasans]

Consider this your one and only chance.

I do not believe the messenger to be Town. If by some miracle, you are, you are to state so here and now, and prove Cow and Elastoid as bullshitters.

If that does not happen, and my lynch goes through, the messenger will be confirmed scum upon my death.

[Neasans]

whoever believes I would be enough of an idiot to fake a message has problems in reasoning

also, I'm still holding SFM 15 against you, you literally ruined Town's chances that game by getting yourself mislynched and fucking threatening to roleblock Town Protectives

And I'm green and you're the one pushing the mislynch, so who's the one in the wrong here, huh?

In any case, Nes, you're implying someone in this game is retarded, so who is this retard?

anyone incapable of using the legendary skill of "logic"

strange, I know

[Elastoid]

Cow, what's your opinion on the claim of a Major God, AND Citizen simultaneously? Do you believe Arc would give different, Minor God names to Citizens? Sounds like Loki can do a lot of stuff, so I'm less inclined to believe that he's a Citizen and not a mafia deception role.

[Neasans]

Citizen-esque roles are certainly possible in this game, albeit I would say definitely not without at least some modification.

[TheCow]

Cow, what's your opinion on the claim of a Major God, AND Citizen simultaneously? Do you believe Arc would give different, Minor God names to Citizens? Sounds like Loki can do a lot of stuff, so I'm less inclined to believe that he's a Citizen and not a mafia deception role.

I think Citizen is the role archetype that could be anything. So Loki would be either Town Deception, Mafia Deception, [x] Support, or Citizen -- as an example.

Citizen-esque roles are certainly possible in this game, albeit I would say definitely not without at least some modification.

Are you calling Von a liar, then?

[Elastoid]

Citizen-esque roles are certainly possible in this game, albeit I would say definitely not without at least some modification.

What do you mean?

[TheCow]

Citizen-esque roles are certainly possible in this game, albeit I would say definitely not without at least some modification.

What do you mean?

An example might be a Vengeful Miller -- like a citizen, but they show Red to TIs and if they are lynched, they get a jester haunt.

[Cyantic]

I have no clue what the fuck is going on in like anyone here's heads.

[Elastoid]

Cow, what's your opinion on the claim of a Major God, AND Citizen simultaneously? Do you believe Arc would give different, Minor God names to Citizens? Sounds like Loki can do a lot of stuff, so I'm less inclined to believe that he's a Citizen and not a mafia deception role.

I think Citizen is the role archetype that could be anything. So Loki would be either Town Deception, Mafia Deception, [x] Support, or Citizen -- as an example.

There's Town Deception?

I mean, I posit that there are more than nine Major Gods, so yeah, it's possible for all of us to be Major, but if the Retral theme held true, then the lore of the God would have a large bearing on his role (lord of the Underworld delays death).

So now I'm looking at Loki, a god who's known for deception across lots of media, and specifically in this game is mentioned as both the god of fire and deception, and I'm thinking, "why would you choose THAT god for a Citizen?"

I think there's a good chance Von is actually Loki -- with no guarantee there are minor gods in the mix, there would be too few major gods to claim an inaccurate god name and hope it didn't invite CC -- but I think Loki would have a power, and Von's claim doesn't add up.

My honest thinking (which stems that there's mafia chat with three members) is that the mafia know all their gods, and all three are Major, but that an actual Citizen would get a less exciting god than fucking Loki, the main antagonist in the Avengers movie.

[Neasans]

Elastoid, there's many types of Citizen-esque role possibilities. See Rick in CFM 13 for example.

Hm. I see. Notable that Von did say "basically". Seeing it that he claims to be Loki. Is Loki supposed to be a powerful god in age of mythology or would that make sense? I have never played nor deeply read of this game at all.

I have no clue what the fuck is going on in like anyone here's heads.

The answer is quite probably "nothing", sadly.

[Neasans]

p sure Avengers and mythology might not be exactly the same to each other but what do I know

[Cyantic]

Can we like not use flavor to make fallacious conclusions please?

[Elastoid]

p sure Avengers and mythology might not be exactly the same to each other but what do I know

My point is, Loki is one of the names that you recognize not just from this game or from social studies class.

Zeus is another example, but Arc is clearly Zeus. Hades is also well known. Thor, Odin and Loki are also well-recognized. If there's a Citizen, I'm going to expect him to be a lesser-known god, without an obvious ability associated with him.

For example, if I were making a BM role, I'd probably make him Hermes, because the "messenger" paradigm is too good to pass up.
If I were making a protective role, Isis sounds like a damned good choice.

Loki could easily be killing things or tricking people. Loki is a great rolecard for Jester (shit that just occurred to me) or a deceptive role like Framer.

If I'm choosing a god for Citizen, I'm more likely to go Athena -- goddess of wisdom -- or maybe someone like Horus. Not Loki.

And sorry, Cy -- I'm already on Von as scum, I presented my case without this side-note on flavor. Feel free to ignore this.

[Elastoid]

Elastoid, there's many types of Citizen-esque role possibilities. See Rick in CFM 13 for example.

I'm saying, why are you ruling out vanilla Citizens as a possibility? I get that other roles exist, I'm just confused as to why you're so certain that there are no pure Citizens.