SFM15 | III | Game Over | Mafia Wins | Karma is a Bitch

[CJBlack44]

CJ's big post was really fencesitty, like "they could be town or scum." Ok, take a stance on it.
Now
Invenio
We're lynching Cow.

I didn't take a stance on it because I didn't feel I had enough information. The fact that Cow lied about not having the item (which I missed but Alzar pointed it out) enforces my scum read on them. Still, I'm not voting until I hear Cow's arguments as to why he thinks Watt is scum. This is important to me, it will help me make a decision. I understand why everyone feels Cow is scum, but I have presented my perspective from hypothetical TownCow's eyes, and if that perspective is correct then Cow is Town. If that perspective is wrong (aka, if Cow doesn't have any strong reasons to believe Watt is scum and is, in fact, just going for an easy mislynch) then yes, I will certainly vote Cow.

I definitely wouldn't vote Watt - his initial jump at the smallest reason to vote Cow seemed scummy to me, but later he reveals his reasoning - the fact that he knew his item had been stolen by Cow. So I have a townread on Watt and I don't believe he is scum in the slightest. However, I DO want to hear why Cow believes he is scum.

I will decide (my stance on Cow that is) after Cow answers this for me:
Cow, please state the reasons why you think Watt is scum.

You see, just as I suspected, Watt just revealed the fact that Cow doesn't win if Watt dies from the Catgirl thingy. So I'm wondering - what does ScumCow have to gain from mislynching Watt? He doesn't win if Watt dies while holding the item, so why push for his lynch as scum? This is why I refuse to take a stance yet. I don't see Cow's reasoning behind attacking Watt if he (Cow) is really scum. Though it wouldn't be the first time he does this tbh *cough*8F*cough*

[Watt2015]

Cow initially jumped on me and read me as scum over d1 jokes. That was why I felt he was scum, because his push against me was on weak grounds. The item in itself seems scummy, because a scum can throw the item out to the town, and the town would have to start adapting to their new item, as well as be incredibly paranoid they're holding the ultimate losing item.

If he was scum, he has a lot to gain.
First, you find someone you can easily throw suspicion on (in this case, me, or thats at least what he tried).
Then, that night, you swap items with that person.
Next day, you lynch them, now this unholy item is taken to the grave with them, and now you possess a new item.

If he was going to push hard on a real scum, he might wait until you can vote, as if I was scum, it'd be in my best interest to have the person attacking me killed, and even the risk of that would mean he'd auto lose.

The conclusion I come to? He didn't have to worry about that, because he's on the scum team, therefor knowing he was safe!

[TheCow]

The amount of misrep astounds me. This Meta is disgusting, and it seems I am being lynched.

That being said, because I am on mobile, I cannot dive at this time, so do not expect content for a couple hours.

[CJBlack44]

Cow initially jumped on me and read me as scum over d1 jokes. That was why I felt he was scum, because his push against me was on weak grounds. The item in itself seems scummy, because a scum can throw the item out to the town, and the town would have to start adapting to their new item, as well as be incredibly paranoid they're holding the ultimate losing item.

If he was scum, he has a lot to gain.
First, you find someone you can easily throw suspicion on (in this case, me, or thats at least what he tried).
Then, that night, you swap items with that person.
Next day, you lynch them, now this unholy item is taken to the grave with them, and now you possess a new item.

If he was going to push hard on a real scum, he might wait until you can vote, as if I was scum, it'd be in my best interest to have the person attacking me killed, and even the risk of that would mean he'd auto lose.

The conclusion I come to? He didn't have to worry about that, because he's on the scum team, therefor knowing he was safe!

I get what you're saying and yes, I agree that the item is scummy. However, it seems like Invenio's only purpose this game was to fuck up the Town, so I can't really tell for sure if scummy item equals scummy owner. I mean, this item - it doesn't only not benefit Town, it doesn't benefit ITS OWNER regardless of his\her alignment. Like, you can't say that this item helps its owner if its owner is scum, but it doesn't help its owner if its owner is town. Do you understand what I'm saying? The item doesn't help it's owner period.

What does scum have to gain from holding this item? This seems to be what I'm missing. I mean, throwing suspicion and getting someone mislynched can be very well achieved and beneficial to scum REGARDLESS of the item.

Overall, I agree that there is no evidence against anyone else more than there is against Cow, so unless some new information comes up, he will become today's lynch. However, I would like to hear the answer to my question before deciding to vote. If you must know why I'm so hesitant to vote Cow, here it is: I've played against scum Cow in 3 different games. I know gut reads are a shitty thing but I do feel that his play is slightly different here. I will take evidence over gut anytime - hence why I said that I would vote Cow if no new information comes to light. However, I would like to hear from them first.

P-EDIT: aaaand...Cow disappears again just when he has to explain things

[Alzar]

I've played against scum!Cow 8 times, if I'm not counting wrong. The only times I've properly read him was when I was a Jester and Witch(ish).

Do you believe Cow lying about his item could be indicative of Town?

[SirCakez]

He literally tried to hide that he was the item thief with the fake post restrictions. If thats not indicative of scum I don't know what is.

ALSO
If Invenio did steal that Saw NK I suggested in Grand Idea Mafia like we think he did it's possible it may have other abilities and ways to kill. Gonna copy paste the whole original role card here so people can see what might come up.
It's probably modified from the original form though. We'll see tomorrow.
Spoiler: Jigsaw Killer

Neutral Killing, only wins with self

Ultimate Killer - Immune to all forms of attacks, douses, vet alerts, etc.

They're onto me - Will appear suspicious to all direct Investigatives, such as Sheriff, Investigator, etc.

Death Traps - Each day, may select a player (or multiple players depending on the trap) to place in a trap the following night. Each trap is only usable once until every one is used, then they all reset.

Reverse Bear Trap - Targets one player. The targeted player must choose another player to kill to get the key and save themselves with. If the killed player is scum the player will not find the key and will die. If the killed player is town the player will survive. If no one is killed the player will die.

Venus Fly Trap - Targets one player. The targeted player must cut the key out of themselves to survive. They will be converted into a Cit or Goon for the rest of the game if they are town or scum respectively. If they are already cit or goon they will be unable to cut the key out and will die.

Carousel Trap - Targets four players. The first player will be in control. The other three wil be on the carousel. The player in control must stab themselves to save a player of their choice. One stab roleblocks them for two nights. Two stabs roleblocks them for the rest of the game. Three stabs kills them. They may save one player of their choice for each time they stab themselves. Everyone who is not saved dies.

Table Trap - Targets three players. Two players will be stuck to the table, which has a saw in the middle, while the third will be above the table. Each player at the table must choose Other or Third. If they both choose Other, they will both be dragged onto the saw and killed. If they both choose Third the third player will be lowered onto the saw and killed. If one chooses Other and the second chooses Third the one who chose Third will be dragged onto the saw and killed.

[Alzar]

what have you done

[Killthestory]

GOD DAMMIT I FUCKING QUIT.

alright, time for some real talk.

@LoF, Don't take this as appeasement because I don't regret what I did in the slightest, but I've realized I have a huge huge sunk cost fallacy bias and am instead deciding to cut losses now. I can understand that my immediate defense of Cow was noteworthy for you LoF, but take this as noteworthy, too. I at the time believed Cow to be town due to how crazy he seemed to be playing with the only other option being neutral, and I decided to treat you like a VI. Of course, it was sort of correct, but I admit it was the wrong course of action to take at the time.

/unvote

I'm not voting because DV ;-;

Also Mel is still scum her insults and posts are still empty and meaningless to me. I don't get a town vibe tbh

[Watt2015]

GOD DAMMIT I FUCKING QUIT.

alright, time for some real talk.

@LoF, Don't take this as appeasement because I don't regret what I did in the slightest, but I've realized I have a huge huge sunk cost fallacy bias and am instead deciding to cut losses now. I can understand that my immediate defense of Cow was noteworthy for you LoF, but take this as noteworthy, too. I at the time believed Cow to be town due to how crazy he seemed to be playing with the only other option being neutral, and I decided to treat you like a VI. Of course, it was sort of correct, but I admit it was the wrong course of action to take at the time.

/unvote

I'm not voting because DV ;-;

Also Mel is still scum her insults and posts are still empty and meaningless to me. I don't get a town vibe tbh

Someone should definitely look into Mel, but today, since Cow holds my previous item, I think he needs to go before he messes with the town in any way.

[Killthestory]

Cow, let's be honest here. I'm willing to take you being town into consideration, but explain your motives to me right now simply. Don't try to make it a fucking essay because I won't read it. Just give me a simple reason.

[LordofFail]

@k1ll

Fair enough, that seems like a logical progression.

My question then is this: Why would you vote a VI? Isn't a VI still Town?
If you thought I was a VI, and therefore Town, what would voting me accomplish? Other then having the potential of starting a bandwagon on me which would lead to a mislynch...

[Killthestory]

@k1ll

Fair enough, that seems like a logical progression.

My question then is this: Why would you vote a VI? Isn't a VI still Town?
If you thought I was a VI, and therefore Town, what would voting me accomplish? Other then having the potential of starting a bandwagon on me which would lead to a mislynch...

Pressure

[Alzar]

policy lynch

[CJBlack44]

Do you believe Cow lying about his item could be indicative of Town?

No, I don't. Trouble is, I feel that the situation we're facing is more dangerous than we realize. I mean, in a normal game (I'll give 8F as an example since we both played in it), you can maybe afford a mislynch, so if you think someone is scummy, you vote them (even though I firmly believe you should be 100% CONVINCED that said person is scum before voting them but ok). In this game however, plenty of fucked up shit could happen (take Mel's item for example, or those stupid buildings) so at this point, I don't feel we can afford a mislynch. Since we have no idea whatsoever on the rolelist, we could already be in Mylo by now. I'm assuming worst case scenario and acting accordingly.

I do believe Cow is the scummiest player so far. But I am not convinced he is scum. Hence why I want to hear his reasoning. Of course, considering how the day was shortened (another fucked up shit of the type I just mentioned), if Cow doesn't post anything relevant, I would vote him since there is no one else I would vote at this point and I don't feel that nolynch is a viable alternative.

I am asking you, though, Alzar: does Cow's scum play make sense to you? Because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't think he'd pull the same shit now as in 8F, considering how well that worked out for him

[Killthestory]

The only way this makes sense to me CJ is if Cow is exe. Then it makes zero sense.

[Alzar]

I can see the scum motivation behind someone stealing another item, pushing a lynch on the original holder of the item, then continuing the game.

I think that's as much sense as the game will make, honestly.

[Killthestory]

Exe motivation is not only is he getting his target lynched, but he's also getting rid of the item for good.

Otherwise I see no motivation for this behavior from any other alignment

[LordofFail]

I can see the scum motivation behind someone stealing another item, pushing a lynch on the original holder of the item, then continuing the game.

I think that's as much sense as the game will make, honestly.

I agree. Kill anyone with knowledge of your item before they can spill the beans. And if they forgot to write the abilities of their item in their will, thats an added bonus.

[Alzar]

*cough* items flip on deatj

[LordofFail]

Exe motivation is not only is he getting his target lynched, but he's also getting rid of the item for good.

Otherwise I see no motivation for this behavior from any other alignment

Cow's item seems like something associated with Mafia Deception or Phantom/Jester IMO. We should remember that the abilities of an item were only made after the alignment and subalignment was rolled.

[LordofFail]

*cough* items flip on deatj

Not your original item, only the item you have when you die.

Say player A swaps his item with player B.
Player B then dies.
Player B flips to have the swap item and unless they reference their original item in their will, any evidence that they ever had their original item is gone.

[Killthestory]

actually I see it going with any NE tbh since they're meant to fuck with people rn

[Alzar]

Actually. Fuck. Wait.

If Cow was pushing on Watt so strongly, and Watt wrote a will about how his item was stolen, then what the fuck would happen? Like, if Watt's Town, clearly he'll talk about his original item and how the item was stolen.

Shit, what's going on now. It doesn't explain why Cow would lie and make up an item, nor why he would admit to it later but excuse it by saying that Watt was a strong scumread, but it's something that doesn't make sense in a game that makes less sense.

What the fuck.

[CJBlack44]

The only way this makes sense to me CJ is if Cow is exe. Then it makes zero sense.

You mean as a role, not from the item? Then yes, it makes sense. To be honest, this entire time I kept thinking that it doesn't make sense for Cow to want Watt to die because the item description says that he doesn't win if the new owner dies with the item. I didn't actually consider the possibility that he could win because that is his role *facepalm*

Well, I can guarantee 100% that I will be here when the day ends and I will be able to hammer Cow, so I'm in no hurry to vote. I would still like to hear from Cow but, seeing how the day has been shortened, I don't think there's any other viable lynch target for today anyway.

We should, however, discuss other relevant stuff. Should we decide on a target to be shot in case the entire Saw Killer thing happens again (like, someone receiving an evil gun the same way Neasans did)?

We should also try to make sense of the letters we received (not knowing if Neasans or Varanus got any letters is frustrating) and figure out the thing about Mela's item before it backfires on us (unless I'm mistaken, Mela stated that she had an item that could harm town on day 3??? Or something of the sort).

I haven't yet figured out what the letters spell, but I'm still trying. I don't think we should ignore this.

Also, I would like Mela to explain her item thingy more in detail.

@LoF: items are revealed upon death anyway, no?
Nvm, that makes sense.

@Alzar: maybe Cow didn't expect Watt to reveal the properties of his item...?? idk...

[Alzar]

I still believe Cow is scum, but the whatthefuck-ery just increased.