vampires too weak

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vampires too weak

Postby destroyer5221 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:24 pm

all the games i've played vampires have lost. This is because of one main reason: they can barely infect any roles many of them being town. While I understand making maf immune many others don't make sense. Mafia makes sense because one day some for some random reason a mafia has left but is still alive.
I also have a suggestion since there are roles-ish like youngest and vampire. You should add elder who is like a Godfather in a way however he isn't immune at night.
Last edited by destroyer5221 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby EmeraldSpashu » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:36 pm

Basically the Vampires should get something like a Godfather?
I kinda like that idea
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby shapesifter13 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:50 pm

We are gathering stats still, the vampires have been out less than a month. Once we feel we have gathered enough stats we have a few ideas to nerf/buff what is needed.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Ansem555 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:29 pm

Any idea when those will be shared to the public to see how they are doing, Shapesifter?

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Re: vampires too weak

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:50 am

I would like to see them as well.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:05 am

I doubt they will go public with them. They should, I´m just pretty sure, looking back.

Anyways this idea of a Elder Vampire is really stupid. You want to give the Elder Vampire a "chance" to kill someone, and even "smaller chance" to
kill the VH.

Did you notice something about TOS?

Like, for example, the lack of any kind of "chance" stuff, everywhere?

This is because this game is not about making chances. Its about making decisions that either work, or not. If there ever was anything randomized, it would
break the balance of the game entirely... because if you did the same thing, you would have to expect different results.

So no, no "random" chances. Vampires are hard to win, true, but they are not helpless. I believe there are better ways to balance them out, for example like
attempted "turning" of a Mafia member kills the Mafia member, etc. Not by giving them RNGesus permanent Veteran Vampire.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby destroyer5221 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:02 pm

They may not be helpless but the only way they can win is by lynching. Plus most people accidently kill vampires. They are very hard to win with especially when there is only one vampire to start out. I have only seen two wins from vamps and that is only because they were lucky enough not to get attacked. Right now they are the hardest group to win with. They desperately need something to give them a little bit of something to offer.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby shapesifter13 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:35 pm

I'm not sure if the stats will be shared once we are done gathering them.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby StlnSP » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:11 pm

destroyer5221 wrote:You should add elder who is like a Godfather in a way however he isn't immune at night.


I don't understand. Isn't night immunity godfather's specialty among other mafia members? :|
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby VoidRuler » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:42 pm

StlnSP wrote:
destroyer5221 wrote:You should add elder who is like a Godfather in a way however he isn't immune at night.


I don't understand. Isn't night immunity godfather's specialty among other mafia members? :|


They're suggesting Vampires have a vampire who's night immune. I support this as well and it's been suggested many times.

I think the oldest Vamp should be the Vampire Elder, who's night immune. This can be passed down one or two times. That's just how I think of it though.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby houyin » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:50 pm

So I basically play ranked mode only, I did not play so much games since the vampires came out, I think I had 5 vampire games on ranked and 4 times the vampires won the game, but I agree that vamps are quiet underpowered, if you compare them to mafia, they're pretty much a faction of citizens, while mafia has variable roles with variable unique skills.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:12 pm

BUT Mafia can't convert. Giving a conversion role powers is called a Cultafia, and it's pretty much the biggest NO!!! in the entire mafia-style gametype.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: vampires too weak

Postby cmitc1 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:18 pm

vamps are op without a Vh in game (assuming you dont have some ad luck)

vamps are weak with a Vh in game.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Kephin » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:28 am

The idea to have an "Eldest" role sounds good. They could be night immune and/or be able to target someone each night to find out if they're "biteable" or not.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby oliy » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:44 am

Vampires are good if it's in a balanced setup.
One Vampire, three Mafia, Neutral Evil, Neutral Benign, Any, Town Killing instead of VH, just keep going.

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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Omglol » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:50 am

Vampires aren't weak :P
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:57 am

Vampires are definitely weak. However, buffing them as they are is a bad idea, because then you have an unstoppable conversion role. I think the best ways to take care of this are make Chaos roles only spawn in Chaos gamemodes (also clone Custom into a new Chaotic Custom) or use this Vamp/VH idea: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33750
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Kephin » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:44 pm

Another thing would be to just let them bite every night instead of waiting a day, since they only successfully bite around 50% of the time anyway, especially when you have a 5-mafia game with 2-3 additional night immune roles.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:18 pm

5-Mafia games are impossible. The max is 4.

In the meantime, for a large list of Vampire and Vampire Hunter ideas, look here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33899
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Kephin » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:41 am

I think there can be a total of 5 mafia max. It used to be 6 but they reduced it in the vampire update.

Anyway I thought of a few more suggestions to help the vampies out.

-Can convert every night instead of every 2 nights as said before.

-If a bodyguard protects someone from a vampire bite, the vampire should die and the bodyguard becomes a vampire. This is logical because the bodyguard is supposed to take the bullet for the person they are protecting, however it was never the vampire's intention to kill in the first place, therefore the bodyguard should be taking the vampire's bite instead.

-Instead of having the vampires vote on one person to kill, they should make a list. Each person votes for 1 target, as they do now. The target with the most votes gets bitten. If they are immune, the target with the 2nd most votes gets bitten and so on. If 2 targets have the same number of votes, the order they are attempted to be bitten is random.

-All mafia besides Godfather can be converted. I've heard people say it can't work because Mafia will know who the vampire is, as they left the mafia list but didn't die, and the new vampire will know who all the mafia are. The thing is, nobody is going to want to publicly announce that they know who the mafia/vampire is because they are mafia/the vampire that was converted, just like mafia wouldn't want to publicly admit that they know who the serial killer is because they attacked him. Yes, the new vampire could tell the other vampires some roles at night, but so could a converted investigator. And in return, the mafia will have the advantage of knowing who one of the vampires are. This can create new executioner/jester strategies as well.

-Doctors can't heal vampire bites. Logically, a doctor most likely won't have medicines to counteract a vampire's bite. Instead, if a vampire hunter visits a person on the same night they are bitten, they can administer an antidote that will keep them from converting.

-Each vampire can pick their own target to attempt to bite, and each vampire has their own individual 2-day cooldown on bites. There is no limit to how many people can be converted per night, but once the vampire roster becomes larger than 3 people, vampires will temporarily lose the ability to bite until the roster is reduced to 3 members or less. In return, games which have a vampire will always have at least 1 vampire hunter.

I think one or two of those suggestions implemented would be enough, all of them would be too much.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:50 am

There is a maximum of 5 Mafia in Custom games and the like, but those aren't important to balance.

If the Any rolls Mafia you can have 4-Mafia games, but having 5 from the start is impossible.

Anyways, onto your ideas:
1: FUCK NO. Don't buff a conversion role by giving it more conversions.
2: So have essentially nothing bad happen to the Vampires? That's a lose 1/gain 1 scenario. No thanks.
3: Wait, you want to let them bite every night AND get multiple chances to do so if they hit an immune? What???
4: Nah. Too much potential gamethrowing. Better to just kill them.
5: Wait, you want Vampires to go through BOTH Town Protective roles? How overpowered do you want them to be?
6: Despite contradicting at least one of your earlier ideas, this suggestion isn't terrible. Until you nerfed Vampires even further and literally broke the game.

Okay, good, you don't want all of them in the game. But still, why give so many superbuff ideas and a large nerf that contradicts them?
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Kephin » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:21 am

1. The whole point of this thread is to buff them.
2. Lots of roles have situation in which they gain without losing anything, such as a witch finding a killing role, although point taken.
3. Read the last sentence of my previous post.
4. That's what the report button is for. There will always be gamethrowing. It shouldn't stop the innovation of new ideas. If the developers had that kind of mindset from the beginning, the game would never be what it is today.
5. Read the last sentence of my previous post.
6. Read the last sentence of my previous post.

I don't know why you're so pessimistic. A lot of these ideas would be fun, balanced, and easily programmable compared to a lot of the ideas in the thread you linked.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:48 am

Easily programmable? Yes, at least comparatively.

Fun? Not really?

Balanced? Don't make me laugh. These ideas all overpower Vampires, except for the last one that heavily nerfs them (and further breaks the game). Not a single one of these ideas fix the problems at the heart of the Vampire role.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby cmitc1 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:57 am

vamps are op without a vh

vamps are too weak with a vh.

so why not just remove them >.>
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Re: vampires too weak

Postby Kephin » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:03 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Easily programmable? Yes, at least comparatively.

Fun? Not really?

Balanced? Don't make me laugh. These ideas all overpower Vampires, except for the last one that heavily nerfs them (and further breaks the game). Not a single one of these ideas fix the problems at the heart of the Vampire role.

Again, not sure why you're so unnecessarily pessimistic. I don't attack your suggestion (even though almost any of mine would be more helpful). You're not adding anything to the conversation, so I'm going to have to assume you're a troll.

cmitc1 wrote:vamps are op without a vh

vamps are too weak with a vh.

so why not just remove them >.>

From what I've experienced, it's not entirely the vh that makes them weak. Most of my games where vamps felt underpowered, it was because of constantly hitting bite-immune roles, and being killed off by mafia/neutral roles. Vampire hunters were either not in the game, or didn't play a part in our loss.
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