Include Witch in Coven games

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Include Witch in Coven games

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:40 pm

While CL does everything Witch does and more, why not include classic Witch in the rotation as well? Being neutral is fun in its own way, plus in the case of Coven All Any & Custom, it could cause confusion to the town whether a CL or Witch is in the game. It could even be called "Rogue Witch" or something to explain canonically why the Witch is not part of the Coven.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby Flavorable » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:18 pm

A neutral role that wins with EVERYONE except town, that also has an invulnerability shield for one night put into the gamemode that has the most chance of non-town-majority games?

No thanks.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:22 pm

Well, I didn't say it would be balanced (Coven All Any is already a slaughter for town any way as you mentioned). Just fun. Plus I'm sure custom games could figure out ways to make balanced role lists including Witch.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby Flavorable » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:48 pm

Where's the fun in not having to do anything in order to win? There's no investigative result for Witch that's even remotely "scary" for any faction, worst case would be "Forger", and no one just lynches a possible Forger in CAA because it's a non-threatening role. Not to mention, how would a witch work in combination with a CL? Can't control someone twice. Who has priority? Why does X have priority?

Not to mention Witch is basically a weak CL that wins with basically everyone. There's nothing about the role that would actually add anything to the game.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:32 pm

Flavorable wrote:Where's the fun in not having to do anything in order to win? ... that wins with basically everyone. There's nothing about the role that would actually add anything to the game.



....and yet Surv is left unchanged and is infinitely more boring and was let into coven. k. Also, I assume you've seen what happens when witch is trying to side with different evil factions? Witch has to survive to the end even once town is gone, so balancing trust between many evil factions in a CAA game could create a unique challenge for witch that CL can't have.

Also, as for priority, same way duplicate witch visits are decided now. The code for figuring that out has existed since day one. If there really needed to be priority for balancing reasons like CL over witches, that could easily be done too since CL is unique.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:27 am

PleaseReadSiege wrote:
Flavorable wrote:Where's the fun in not having to do anything in order to win? ... that wins with basically everyone. There's nothing about the role that would actually add anything to the game.



....and yet Surv is left unchanged and is infinitely more boring and was let into coven. k. Also, I assume you've seen what happens when witch is trying to side with different evil factions? Witch has to survive to the end even once town is gone, so balancing trust between many evil factions in a CAA game could create a unique challenge for witch that CL can't have.

Also, as for priority, same way duplicate witch visits are decided now. The code for figuring that out has existed since day one. If there really needed to be priority for balancing reasons like CL over witches, that could easily be done too since CL is unique.


Witch isnt in coven because it would make no sense to have a neutral and an evil faction role with the exact same ability

Also iirc lore wise, coven leader IS the witch (take this with a grain of salt, i dont remember)
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:16 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
PleaseReadSiege wrote:
Flavorable wrote:Where's the fun in not having to do anything in order to win? ... that wins with basically everyone. There's nothing about the role that would actually add anything to the game.



....and yet Surv is left unchanged and is infinitely more boring and was let into coven. k. Also, I assume you've seen what happens when witch is trying to side with different evil factions? Witch has to survive to the end even once town is gone, so balancing trust between many evil factions in a CAA game could create a unique challenge for witch that CL can't have.

Also, as for priority, same way duplicate witch visits are decided now. The code for figuring that out has existed since day one. If there really needed to be priority for balancing reasons like CL over witches, that could easily be done too since CL is unique.


Witch isnt in coven because it would make no sense to have a neutral and an evil faction role with the exact same ability

Also iirc lore wise, coven leader IS the witch (take this with a grain of salt, i dont remember)

The sense is to add confusion, same reason escort and consort have the same ability, ret and necro. It adds claim space for CL, who would be able to claim witch to fool other evils and extract info.

And if we REALLY want to keep the lore consistent then, "Rogue Witch" is another witch that wasn't let into the coven for [insert reason here]
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:01 pm

PleaseReadSiege wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
PleaseReadSiege wrote:
Flavorable wrote:Where's the fun in not having to do anything in order to win? ... that wins with basically everyone. There's nothing about the role that would actually add anything to the game.



....and yet Surv is left unchanged and is infinitely more boring and was let into coven. k. Also, I assume you've seen what happens when witch is trying to side with different evil factions? Witch has to survive to the end even once town is gone, so balancing trust between many evil factions in a CAA game could create a unique challenge for witch that CL can't have.

Also, as for priority, same way duplicate witch visits are decided now. The code for figuring that out has existed since day one. If there really needed to be priority for balancing reasons like CL over witches, that could easily be done too since CL is unique.


Witch isnt in coven because it would make no sense to have a neutral and an evil faction role with the exact same ability

Also iirc lore wise, coven leader IS the witch (take this with a grain of salt, i dont remember)

The sense is to add confusion, same reason escort and consort have the same ability, ret and necro. It adds claim space for CL, who would be able to claim witch to fool other evils and extract info.

And if we REALLY want to keep the lore consistent then, "Rogue Witch" is another witch that wasn't let into the coven for [insert reason here]


The thing is that witch and CL are basically feom the same faction, unlike cons/esc and ret/necro
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:06 am

I support this really. Witch isn't even unique so I dont see why witch should be excluded from coven.

I'm sorry but the game shouldn't be balanced around CAA
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:05 pm

I figure it's a simple way to use what the devs already have to spice up coven modes a bit.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:19 am

Soulshade55r wrote:I support this really. Witch isn't even unique so I dont see why witch should be excluded from coven.

I'm sorry but the game shouldn't be balanced around CAA


In balanced modes it makes even less sense than in CAA
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:00 pm

Get rid of Witchsigliere (from both Witch and CL). Now you have a true neutral role that is completely different from any other role in the game, DLC or otherwise. People think Witch is redundant because right now it's just a fifth evil role. If it has a harder time connecting with the Mafia/Coven then it will have to scumread like any other Town role while still having to deceive the Town. CL doesn't have that. Considering that day play is more important than night abilities, this is enough differentiation to merit adding Witch into the expansion.
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Re: Include Witch in Coven games

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:36 am

alex1234321 wrote:Get rid of Witchsigliere (from both Witch and CL). Now you have a true neutral role that is completely different from any other role in the game, DLC or otherwise. People think Witch is redundant because right now it's just a fifth evil role. If it has a harder time connecting with the Mafia/Coven then it will have to scumread like any other Town role while still having to deceive the Town. CL doesn't have that. Considering that day play is more important than night abilities, this is enough differentiation to merit adding Witch into the expansion.


Not really, you still have 2 roles with the exact same ability that will most likely work together
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