Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

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Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:01 am

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but can we talk about how much Vampire Hunter sucks? Not that it's boring to play as, but how much it sucks being vamps against VH? My main experience with VH is from Coven All Any, which usually only has 1 vamp starting out. The only times I've ever seen the vamp win in this scenario is if someone else kills the VH, which even the evil roles don't want to do if they know who it is (and they commonly claim day 1 to prevent exactly this)

The following things need to be done to make VH better in my opinion:

- VH should no longer read vamp chat. I'm amazed this is still in the game. We decided with spy years ago that reading the evil chat (either secretly or with a warning that someone is listening) is not a good mechanic. It leaves vamps unable to reliably use their chat, and just leads to them saying "fuck you VH" and other nonsense instead

- Vamps need some way to counter VH at night. I haven't fully decided what that should be, but probably something involving guessing who the VH is. That makes it so VH can't just openly claim day 1, forcing both sides to stay hidden.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby rainycake » Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:43 pm

You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:42 pm

rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.


They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:28 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.


They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)

I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.

But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.

Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.

If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.

Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:55 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.


They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)

I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.

But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.

Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.

If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.

Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.



VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.

Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby James2 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:21 am

James2 wrote:The basic problem with Vampires is that they disunify the Town's win condition (making it so that each player has a separate wincon from the rest of the Town). The solution to this is simple, get rid of wincon conversion. Make it so that instead of a player's wincon changing, the Vampires simply gain the ability to control the actions and chat of the players that they have bitten. As part of this change, dead Vampires would lose the ability to see or speak in dead chat, while retaining the ability to communicate in the Vampire chat, and the ability to control converted townies. Also, since this would ultimately be a nerf to the Vampires, it would be balanced by taking away the VH's ability to read Vampire chat.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:58 am

James2 wrote:
James2 wrote:The basic problem with Vampires is that they disunify the Town's win condition (making it so that each player has a separate wincon from the rest of the Town). The solution to this is simple, get rid of wincon conversion. Make it so that instead of a player's wincon changing, the Vampires simply gain the ability to control the actions and chat of the players that they have bitten. As part of this change, dead Vampires would lose the ability to see or speak in dead chat, while retaining the ability to communicate in the Vampire chat, and the ability to control converted townies. Also, since this would ultimately be a nerf to the Vampires, it would be balanced by taking away the VH's ability to read Vampire chat.

This is a good idea, but I don't think it would be feasible with all the false reports it would generate. My ideal solution would be to have Vampires kill their targets and gain an anonymous vote each time they "convert" someone. And ofc make the changes to the chat that you suggested.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:07 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.


They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)

I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.

But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.

Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.

If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.

Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.



VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.

Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.

I highly would put to question why vampire hunter shouldn't be unique? spawning vampire hunters randomly is unfair highly to the vampires so i hard disagree.

Having a counter role so powerful where vampires cannot kill the vampire hunter outside voting, when the role is easily confirmed is unfair, evils dont want to even kill vampire hunters because they do more good then harm, so it becomes a case of where vampires just prey that the vampire hunter(s) get killed randomly. They have no way to counter them.

That sort of dynamic is very unhealthy despite peoples shitting on unique mechanics such as conversions.
Vampires aren't even a bad concept the mixing in of normal modes and the way they currently work is awful, but conversion being a "flawed" concept doesn't mean it can't be a intresting and fun one in such a chaos mode.

Also preventing town from throwing should be what moderators do, town roles should always be encouraged to vote against vampires objectively while they are town, i find that it's the only "valid" point against conversions, where it becomes a bit harder to agree and disagree what throwing is, never the less I've always been against that "because some people will throw x is bad". Also I Guess free wins? are a thing but town can die n1 and get carried free wins are nothing new.

I would leave vampires/vampire hunters out of any and make Draculas' palace a actual role list (including allowing roles such as sheriff to function). I would rework spy anyway, I'd rework how vampires act bassically as converted goons, I'd work on the entire concept from the ground up.
Vampires get a bad wrap generally by the player base is because the design and execution is poor, not that conversion is terrible (ok in ranked and normal modes it is, but as a separate entity its FINE)
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:30 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.


They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)

I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.

But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.

Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.

If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.

Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.



VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.

Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.

I highly would put to question why vampire hunter shouldn't be unique? spawning vampire hunters randomly is unfair highly to the vampires so i hard disagree.

Having a counter role so powerful where vampires cannot kill the vampire hunter outside voting, when the role is easily confirmed is unfair, evils dont want to even kill vampire hunters because they do more good then harm, so it becomes a case of where vampires just prey that the vampire hunter(s) get killed randomly. They have no way to counter them.

That sort of dynamic is very unhealthy despite peoples shitting on unique mechanics such as conversions.
Vampires aren't even a bad concept the mixing in of normal modes and the way they currently work is awful, but conversion being a "flawed" concept doesn't mean it can't be a intresting and fun one in such a chaos mode.

Also preventing town from throwing should be what moderators do, town roles should always be encouraged to vote against vampires objectively while they are town, i find that it's the only "valid" point against conversions, where it becomes a bit harder to agree and disagree what throwing is, never the less I've always been against that "because some people will throw x is bad". Also I Guess free wins? are a thing but town can die n1 and get carried free wins are nothing new.

I would leave vampires/vampire hunters out of any and make Draculas' palace a actual role list (including allowing roles such as sheriff to function). I would rework spy anyway, I'd rework how vampires act bassically as converted goons, I'd work on the entire concept from the ground up.
Vampires get a bad wrap generally by the player base is because the design and execution is poor, not that conversion is terrible (ok in ranked and normal modes it is, but as a separate entity its FINE)


When I can be banned for trying to lose because I made a play that increased my own chance of winning then it's very much not fine. Even in a specially built mode there's nothing fine about a role where you want to play badly enough to win but not badly enough to get caught trying to win. See how confusing the whole thing is?

But if you absolutely must have vamps, you need someone who is conversion immune and cannot lose that immunity. If you can't guarantee it then at least add the threat of it. It's not a good mechanic but it somewhat limits the gamethrowing encouraged by Vampires. If VH was unique, then after the VH dies then everyone would be able to gamethrow and win together. If there might be another VH lurking around Town will think twice before doing that.

Conversion, and especially hard conversion, is a terrible mechanic that should never have existed in the first place. VH slightly but significantly mitigates it. Making Vampires into soft conversion (give them the option to stay with their original faction in some capacity) would also reduce the problem. But it's still a problem.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:37 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
rainycake wrote:You are 100% correct. Yet I don't see them changing VH at all. Maybe I'M too pessimistic.


They havent changed ANYTHING in almost 2 years, despite a lot of things needing changes desesperately (VH being one of them)

I mean i think theirs 90 other issues id change before Vampire hunter just because most my issues are with ranked.

But I gotta say vampire hunter is actually the most weirdest and stupidest role, firstly reading vampire chat? this was removed from spy for a reason (even if spy is still garbo).
THIS needs to be removed evils need and should safely be able to communicate at night.

Vampire hunter literally killing all vampires who visit and having no vampire counter play is dumb, given the fact that vampire hunter isn't a forced spawn (it should be) and its not unique is really bad for the game.

If I were to change Vampire hunter I'd likely make it a neutral benign, that needs to survive to see the vampires defeated (Wins once the vampires are dead like a exe getting their target).
Id make it so vampire attacks can deal basic damage to the Vampire Hunter, but also possibly give vampire Hunter a 1-2 use vest that kills all vampire attackers and makes them immune.

Id also rework vampires to make their converts more intresting but other then that im not aganist convert mechanics if its done well and stays out side of ranked and normal modes.



VH needs to exist to prevent town from completely gamethrowing every time a vamp shows up. Leave it conversion immune and don't make it unique but it should be forced whenever there are vampires. If it were unique then Town would just kill off the VH and then gamethrow.

Take away the night chat. That should be obvious. Other than that it's actually not a terribly unbalanced role like most people say. It prevents Vampires, an even worse role, from completely encouraging players to throw the game.

I highly would put to question why vampire hunter shouldn't be unique? spawning vampire hunters randomly is unfair highly to the vampires so i hard disagree.

Having a counter role so powerful where vampires cannot kill the vampire hunter outside voting, when the role is easily confirmed is unfair, evils dont want to even kill vampire hunters because they do more good then harm, so it becomes a case of where vampires just prey that the vampire hunter(s) get killed randomly. They have no way to counter them.

That sort of dynamic is very unhealthy despite peoples shitting on unique mechanics such as conversions.
Vampires aren't even a bad concept the mixing in of normal modes and the way they currently work is awful, but conversion being a "flawed" concept doesn't mean it can't be a intresting and fun one in such a chaos mode.

Also preventing town from throwing should be what moderators do, town roles should always be encouraged to vote against vampires objectively while they are town, i find that it's the only "valid" point against conversions, where it becomes a bit harder to agree and disagree what throwing is, never the less I've always been against that "because some people will throw x is bad". Also I Guess free wins? are a thing but town can die n1 and get carried free wins are nothing new.

I would leave vampires/vampire hunters out of any and make Draculas' palace a actual role list (including allowing roles such as sheriff to function). I would rework spy anyway, I'd rework how vampires act bassically as converted goons, I'd work on the entire concept from the ground up.
Vampires get a bad wrap generally by the player base is because the design and execution is poor, not that conversion is terrible (ok in ranked and normal modes it is, but as a separate entity its FINE)


When I can be banned for trying to lose because I made a play that increased my own chance of winning then it's very much not fine. Even in a specially built mode there's nothing fine about a role where you want to play badly enough to win but not badly enough to get caught trying to win. See how confusing the whole thing is? Theirs been Situations where people have been banned for outing as evil, in a situation that would benefit them, In most cases town can't choose if they're converted so I'd question how players would try to increase that.

But if you absolutely must have vamps, you need someone who is conversion immune and cannot lose that immunity. If you can't guarantee it then at least add the threat of it. It's not a good mechanic but it somewhat limits the gamethrowing encouraged by Vampires. If VH was unique, then after the VH dies then everyone would be able to gamethrow and win together. If there might be another VH lurking around Town will think twice before doing that. Vampire Hunter should be conversion Immune in a sense but needs counter play, if the VH dies early lets say to maf? then what vampires easily win making vampire hunter a over powered counter to vampires isn't the way to go about it. I don't think ive seen majority town game throw so they can win with vampires? more like 1-2 town members ask to be converted into a free win. It just doesn't happen with the casual playerbase, I've said before i disagree that we should be only designing around rules, moderation exists for a reason, they could just enforce it aganist players outing and not trying because its a vampire game and the VH is dead.

Conversion, and especially hard conversion, is a terrible mechanic that should never have existed in the first place. VH slightly but significantly mitigates it. Making Vampires into soft conversion (give them the option to stay with their original faction in some capacity) would also reduce the problem. But it's still a problem. I can somewhat agree that conversion is a really bad thing in a lot of modes, why I want vampires separated from even any. I feel like instead of removing the entire concept you can just put vampires into a chaos game mode dedicated to people who actually want the vampire concept. While the players who hate vampires don't have to deal with them



I don't think its perfect that people would get reports for trying to make more "risky" plays to get a win, such as scum outing but promising a truce with town, Such as not clamming and acting as jester. But its a stretch to act like most vampire games would end up being where they would slowly kill vampires while converting town slowly in order for everyone to win would be a thing. Heck you could in theory just limit the amount of conversions vampires get if that was a actual thing. Also making roles such as Jailor/mayor conversion Immune along with vampire hunter would all help mitigate the issue if it even became one.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:47 am

Ultimately the problem is that both Vampires and the VH that follow them are just fundamentally broken roles. The only way to really fix Vampires and by extension VH is to either rework Vamps entirely or throw them out
Which likely isn't going to happen because Vampires, VH, and the specific way Vampires would work that makes them so broken were Kickstarter promises
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:09 am

i have no problems with vamps, and often scroll vamp in CAA. the only problems i have after my scroll pays off are
1. 85% of the time Im solo vamp, 10% of the time theres 2 vamps, 5% of the time 3 vamps
2. during the 85% of the time, I rarely bite a townie n1, and end up killing maf/coven/nuetral or hit someone with defence.
3. When I eventually convert someone, I usually get killed the same night, or voted out the next day, leaving only a solo vamp vs a lot of night defence by the time they get to bite again.
4. vamps hardly ever seem to spawn in town heavy modes, and theres usually a VH when they do.

In the 15% of the time where i actually have a team, its either ignore the fact that there COULD be a VH, and co-ordinate at night like theres not, or the team is so paranoid of a VH listening, that its just random clicking at night.

As for the townies throwing.... I see more throwing by players after they get converted, because theyre so salty that they have to change play styles halfway through the match, or they are so town sided, as players, they decide to help town anyway, even tho they are no longer town. Ive even seen people quit the match, just because they got converted.

Also Its pretty rare to see players start throwing because '' oh, its a vamp game, we lose'' unless vamps already have majority or town have no killing/protective/RBing abilities to stop the vamps anyway, Maybe its more common in classic?

Maybe a good buff for vamps would be to make the oldest vamp the 'biter' with something like the necronomicon and let the newer vamps keep their previous roles abilities, kind of like traitors.. would kind of suck in classic tho, with vamp vets and vigis, would also make it harder for town to scum read them because theyll have true wills.

But in regards to VH, yea reading night chat should go
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:18 pm

The issue is people say vampires are "broken" but even if you gave them a isolated game mode (draculars palace is shit) people apparently would consider that a bad tihing.
I don't think conversion itself is a bad mech, it needs counters, more ways to prevent it needs work but conversion isn't really broken

I agree conversion shouldn't be a random thing in a game mode, i rather players know that yeah theirs conversions in this mode before entering.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:41 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:The issue is people say vampires are "broken" but even if you gave them a isolated game mode (Dracula's palace is shit) people apparently would consider that a bad thing.
I don't think conversion itself is a bad mech, it needs counters, more ways to prevent it needs work but conversion isn't really broken

I agree conversion shouldn't be a random thing in a game mode, i rather players know that yeah theirs conversions in this mode before entering.
I mean, people who hate Vampires are naturally going to not want to play a mode dedicated to Vampires, so idk why that's a surprise. I'd be happy with the existence of an isolated Vampire game mode, just so I can shove the role in a closet and never think about it again while I enjoy my Vampire-free All Any games. But it isn't a mode I would play myself.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:42 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:The issue is people say vampires are "broken" but even if you gave them a isolated game mode (Dracula's palace is shit) people apparently would consider that a bad thing.
I don't think conversion itself is a bad mech, it needs counters, more ways to prevent it needs work but conversion isn't really broken

I agree conversion shouldn't be a random thing in a game mode, i rather players know that yeah theirs conversions in this mode before entering.
I mean, people who hate Vampires are naturally going to not want to play a mode dedicated to Vampires, so idk why that's a surprise. I'd be happy with the existence of an isolated Vampire game mode, just so I can shove the role in a closet and never think about it again while I enjoy my Vampire-free All Any games. But it isn't a mode I would play myself.

Well its a surprise because if vampires were in their own mode with VH it wouldn't bother anyone. we can remove it from "any" I don't mind vampires, but i can agree it randomly spawning in ANY is dumb. espically if you didn't really sign up for a game mode that has conversions
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:20 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Well its a surprise because if vampires were in their own mode with VH it wouldn't bother anyone. we can remove it from "any" I don't mind vampires, but i can agree it randomly spawning in ANY is dumb. espically if you didn't really sign up for a game mode that has conversions


except there is a mode, Dracs Palace, which is pretty much dead, mostly due to the fact (IMO) that VH can read night chat, so its impossible to co-ordinate at night as vamps.

Having mayor spawn in that mode is also a pain in the ass, as its a power role that needs to be dealt with fairly early, but is outed as soon as theyre bitten, due to their voting going from 3 to 1, and people whispering them every day to check. Once town know mayor has been bitten, the youngest is revealed and town can lock them down with an escort for an easy win....

So basically in a mayor game, vamps have to deal with an unbeatable townie -the VH -that they have to gain majority to vote off, while having to deal with a townie that has 3 votes over them, which costs 3 nights and 1 conversion to get rid of...
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:55 am

kyuss420 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Well its a surprise because if vampires were in their own mode with VH it wouldn't bother anyone. we can remove it from "any" I don't mind vampires, but i can agree it randomly spawning in ANY is dumb. espically if you didn't really sign up for a game mode that has conversions


except there is a mode, Dracs Palace, which is pretty much dead, mostly due to the fact (IMO) that VH can read night chat, so its impossible to co-ordinate at night as vamps.

Having mayor spawn in that mode is also a pain in the ass, as its a power role that needs to be dealt with fairly early, but is outed as soon as theyre bitten, due to their voting going from 3 to 1, and people whispering them every day to check. Once town know mayor has been bitten, the youngest is revealed and town can lock them down with an escort for an easy win....

So basically in a mayor game, vamps have to deal with an unbeatable townie -the VH -that they have to gain majority to vote off, while having to deal with a townie that has 3 votes over them, which costs 3 nights and 1 conversion to get rid of...

well i don't have to say but Draculars palace sucks ass and isn't a good mode due to its role list and how VH is currently balanced.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Algus » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:09 pm

vampires ruin any game theyre in IMO so i'm 100% for limiting them (and vh obv) to draculas palace

they ruin all any games, they ruin games town would otherwise win (and as a result just end up punishing any dead town that wasnt lucky enough to get converted)

theyre bad IMO and they could absolutely use a ground up rework.

as for vh, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), i would be against vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of vampires imo)


again tho, just limit them to dracs palace and id be happy i dont really care outside of that

anytime i roll solo vamp in all any i just refuse to bite and claim vamp. doing everyone in the game a favor.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:49 pm

Algus wrote:vampires ruin any game theyre in IMO so i'm 100% for limiting them (and vh obv) to draculas palace

they ruin all any games, they ruin games town would otherwise win (and as a result just end up punishing any dead town that wasnt lucky enough to get converted)

theyre bad IMO and they could absolutely use a ground up rework.

as for vh, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), i would be against vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of vampires imo)


again tho, just limit them to dracs palace and id be happy i dont really care outside of that

anytime i roll solo vamp in all any i just refuse to bite and claim vamp. doing everyone in the game a favor.


I'm not saying Dracula's palace cuz that role list sucks (also im fine with vamps in custom just only if the host puts em in), they should revisit vampires and try to actually make draculars palace a playable mode first. [They shouldn't spawn in any or RN] VH needs a rework still IMO.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:14 pm

Algus wrote:As for VH, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), I would be against Vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of Vampires imo)
Vampire Hunter being Town or NB doesn't change how horrendously OP it is.
It can kill a Vampire every night if it finds them, it can read the Vampire's night chat like old Spy, and it auto-counters the Vampires so two of them can die in the same night if they get really unlucky

If you're Vampire in a VH game you're basically being handed a free loss, regardless of the VH's alignment.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby Algus » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:43 pm

i dont care about vampires night chat i cant remember it ever being useful for vh

feel free to remove that i genuinely dont think it impacts the game in the slightest

vh wastes a lot of time. if it claims early and it should, its not gonna be getting any defensive kills, at that point it doesnt matter who vh checks because theyd have to check them again the night after next regardless, it doesnt confirm anything outside of a one night window

its strong vs vamps but vamps are insanely strong vs town, without a vh its basically free if theyre last evils

so a rework maybe but i dont feel bad for the vampires.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:01 pm

Understandable have a nice day

It's kinda hard to talk about VH when it's tied to Vampires which need their own entire rework

Especially since we don't know how a hypothetical Vampire rework would affect the balance of the role/faction
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:10 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Understandable have a nice day

It's kinda hard to talk about VH when it's tied to Vampires which need their own entire rework

Especially since we don't know how a hypothetical Vampire rework would affect the balance of the role/faction


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118533&p=3609050#p3609050

Most of those roles got accepted in TG
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:32 pm

ok but they're not in the game
meaning that we don't have the real in-game experience of how balanced the reworked vamps (if they even end up looking like these roles) would be in practice

a vampire rework would have to happen first, in the actual game, and then we would need time to play the reworked faction and get a feel for it, before a meaningful discussion on VH can really be had imo
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:46 am

Algus wrote:vampires ruin any game theyre in IMO so i'm 100% for limiting them (and vh obv) to draculas palace

they ruin all any games, they ruin games town would otherwise win (and as a result just end up punishing any dead town that wasnt lucky enough to get converted)

theyre bad IMO and they could absolutely use a ground up rework.

as for vh, i would not be against VH becoming NB but guaranteed (even unique), i would be against vampires being able to kill them outside of voting (which is the entire power of vampires imo)


again tho, just limit them to dracs palace and id be happy i dont really care outside of that

anytime i roll solo vamp in all any i just refuse to bite and claim vamp. doing everyone in the game a favor.


lol, thats like saying mafia or coven ruin games town would otherwise win, and I guess if you didnt like mafia, youd throw if you rolled that solo in AA?

I mean, logically, it isnt hard to determine the youngest vamp, and theyre easily locked down by any escort with half a brain, but yea, if you dont even play the role when you get it, I realise why you have absolutely no idea how to counter the role as town and therefore lose any time you face someone with a bit of intelligence who rolled it.

Like... if they didnt kill, then they probably converted (if they didnt hit a target with defence) and they can only do that every 2nd night, so its not hard to guess the number of vamps in game (even easier if theres a VH who can read the chat) Smartest move is to bight early game confirmed townies, who have easily fakeable mid to late game wills, so if a vamp dies early, chances are they bit a TI who posted early...

Punishing dead townies is kinda beside the point, roles shouldnt be balanced around how salty the losers get, and if the vamps werent there, town would just be dealing with more of the other evil faction or some NKs, or thered be even more town taking the extra slots, making it a boring townie sided match..

Vamps are awesome, giving the game an extra style of evil gameplay, that you dont get with maf, coven or any of the NKs. Its also fun having to switch from town style to evil style mid game. Salty dead townies are salty no matter how they lose or which faction they lose to, even more in AA where the luck factor is more of a thing. The funniest thing about being evil is watching the salty players when theyve been outplayed
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