Prevent TP Chaining

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Prevent TP Chaining

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:40 am

I usually only play Coven All Any so I can't speak for other modes, but I see TP chains quite often and think they're a load of bullshit. A combination of Doc, Crus, and/or BG staying on each other all game. Once this has been established, town's chances of winning skyrockets, as those 2+ players can now survive pretty much every killing role in the game.

While I don't think TP chaining as a whole should be removed, there are some suggestions I have to prevent it being used the entire game, as I feel this is too overpowered:

- Make it so rampages are no longer protected by TP. It's ridiculous how a werewolf can attack a TP being protected, and BOTH PEOPLE survive. At the very least, the one who visited should die from the rampage. Rampage killers like WW and Pestilence are already hard enough being solo, so being able to break TP chains themselves would be a huge help


- Make it so crus can't go on the same person multiple nights in a row. Crusader is by far the worst offender when it comes to chains. 2 crus' on each other are not only basically invincible to everyone except fully powered jugg, but can also kill most roles that have any ability to break the chain.


- Make it so doctor can't prevent BG's death from a protection. Crusader is fine as long as the above change is made.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby MrMcSirMan » Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:59 am

Dude, you realize that would basically ruin the point of the TP roles, right?
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:24 pm

MrMcSirMan wrote:Dude, you realize that would basically ruin the point of the TP roles, right?

Not at all. None of this (except the crus change) would affect 99% of TP's abilities and scenarios. The intent is just to stop 2 or more TPs staying on each other all game. There's so many other important town roles TP can protect instead.

I'm open to hearing what else could be done about crus instead since it is a bit steep, but TP chaining is 100% a problem worth fixing, and the other changes are precise enough to target this alone.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:53 pm

Crus needs a whole rework

The rampage thing makes no sense, if crus and doc only protected from direct attacks they would suck ass (well idk crus but doc would for sure)
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:16 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Crus needs a whole rework

The rampage thing makes no sense, if crus and doc only protected from direct attacks they would suck ass (well idk crus but doc would for sure)


The rampage thing is to make it so the solo roles (eg WW, pest) can break TP chains on their own. It's bullshit that they can only win in that scenario with outside factors.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:54 pm

PleaseReadSiege wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Crus needs a whole rework

The rampage thing makes no sense, if crus and doc only protected from direct attacks they would suck ass (well idk crus but doc would for sure)


The rampage thing is to make it so the solo roles (eg WW, pest) can break TP chains on their own. It's bullshit that they can only win in that scenario with outside factors.


It would still be a noticeable and unneded nerf which also makes no sense mechanicaly
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:20 pm

or just give Town Protectives a "1 day cd" on protecting a player, this has the benefit of town protectives not being jailor baby sitters aswell.

You could prolly buff WW, in that sense still so they dont meta game on early full moons, but other then that eh.

Give visits a stronger attack value
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby WildCard65 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:09 pm

Werewolf is only able to break up a 2 person Town Protective chain if one of them is a Bodyguard.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:33 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:or just give Town Protectives a "1 day cd" on protecting a player, this has the benefit of town protectives not being jailor baby sitters aswell.

You could prolly buff WW, in that sense still so they dont meta game on early full moons, but other then that eh.

Give visits a stronger attack value


Unstopable attack for rampaged people? Hell no
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:07 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:or just give Town Protectives a "1 day cd" on protecting a player, this has the benefit of town protectives not being jailor baby sitters aswell.

You could prolly buff WW, in that sense still so they dont meta game on early full moons, but other then that eh.

Give visits a stronger attack value


Unstopable attack for rampaged people? Hell no


That would objectively solve tp chaining against a werewolf, it would act the same but you can't be saved by doctors, Crusaders, Ga's & Potion Masters? so really I don't see how its a stretch, wasn't even my main point.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:14 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:or just give Town Protectives a "1 day cd" on protecting a player, this has the benefit of town protectives not being jailor baby sitters aswell.

You could prolly buff WW, in that sense still so they dont meta game on early full moons, but other then that eh.

Give visits a stronger attack value


Unstopable attack for rampaged people? Hell no


That would objectively solve tp chaining against a werewolf, it would act the same but you can't be saved by doctors, Crusaders, Ga's & Potion Masters? so really I don't see how its a stretch, wasn't even my main point.


4 roles, that is a big diference, I would prefer the 1 night cd if your target isnt attacked (idk if bg would really need it but lets do it anyway)

Altho how would that work for trapper?
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:13 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:or just give Town Protectives a "1 day cd" on protecting a player, this has the benefit of town protectives not being jailor baby sitters aswell.

You could prolly buff WW, in that sense still so they dont meta game on early full moons, but other then that eh.

Give visits a stronger attack value


Unstopable attack for rampaged people? Hell no


That would objectively solve tp chaining against a werewolf, it would act the same but you can't be saved by doctors, Crusaders, Ga's & Potion Masters? so really I don't see how its a stretch, wasn't even my main point.


4 roles, that is a big diference, I would prefer the 1 night cd if your target isnt attacked (idk if bg would really need it but lets do it anyway)

Altho how would that work for trapper?

Obviously it wouldn't apply to trapper. Doctor, Crus and BG, i think bg should be there because they kill the evil either way and can chain with doctors easily
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby blackaxe3 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:23 pm

TP Chaining is not as overpowered as you make it out to be.

- Arsonists can douse one of the players and incinerate them the next night.
- One of the Town Protectives could be fake, opening the other up to attack.
- TP Chaining leaves other roles vulnerable to attack.
- Consorts and Witches/Coven Leaders can break the TP chain easily.

The main issue is with the Crusader since it can kill anyone who visits even if they aren't attacking, which is why nerfing the Crusader is definitely necessary.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:25 pm

blackaxe3 wrote:TP Chaining is not as overpowered as you make it out to be.

- Arsonists can douse one of the players and incinerate them the next night.
- One of the Town Protectives could be fake, opening the other up to attack.
- TP Chaining leaves other roles vulnerable to attack.
- Consorts and Witches/Coven Leaders can break the TP chain easily.

The main issue is with the Crusader since it can kill anyone who visits even if they aren't attacking, which is why nerfing the Crusader is definitely necessary.


I think its mainly worth talking about generally for anti jailor tp spam.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:39 am

VIP mode revolves around the TP chain, and coven breaking it early on. Get good at playing evil in VIP, and youll never have a problem with TP chains again.

Also Juggernaut has an unstoppable rage attack when hes powered up :P

Coven leader can easily beat 2 crus on each other, just send one of them to themself, and he will hit himself, the other or the CL (better make sure you got necronomicon or a PM heal on n2 tho).

I mean crus doesnt need nerfing, and jailor should be protected.... maybe just make a sandbox mode where TPs cant spawn, and that will make the game easy enough for people who arent pro enough to play as evil ^^
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:39 pm

kyuss420 wrote:VIP mode revolves around the TP chain, and coven breaking it early on. Get good at playing evil in VIP, and youll never have a problem with TP chains again.

Also Juggernaut has an unstoppable rage attack when hes powered up :P

Coven leader can easily beat 2 crus on each other, just send one of them to themself, and he will hit himself, the other or the CL (better make sure you got necronomicon or a PM heal on n2 tho).

I mean crus doesnt need nerfing, and jailor should be protected.... maybe just make a sandbox mode where TPs cant spawn, and that will make the game easy enough for people who arent pro enough to play as evil ^^

This seems like one of the most arrogant and bad takes.
And Vip isn't the greatest, I personally think it could do with some role list adjustments, Its not dog awful like lovers currently but it could certainly improve, Its also not the only mode in the game. all of this includes coven expansion roles, with roles such as Juggernaut you're not going to get them on classic nor are they always going to spawn in certain game modes.

Tos in general shouldn't revolve around one role such as the Jailor getting protected and evils trying to slowly kill off and find the Tp's, that's very boring and obnoxious for the protective roles that are dumbed down to targeting the same player over and over, where to role takes as much skill as a psychic.

While i dont find tps chaining each other the biggest issue, i dont think Protectives should have the option or mostly be forced to play in such a 1 dimensional way.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:13 pm

I agree that VIP mode always gives Coven what it needs to at least have a shot at preventing the chains in the first place, so in cases like that it's simple enough to just say "that's on you if you didn't play well enough." The problem comes with modes that have more randomness (including the most random of all, Coven All Any). Not every role list leaves the evil roles equipped to prevent or break the one-to-many TP chains that can happen, and once you know it's established it kills the game at that point. While balancing changes shouldn't entirely depend on Coven All Any, it's one of the most played Coven modes so if there was any mode to consider this type of balancing change for, this would be it since TP chaining situations happen so often there.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:38 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
kyuss420 wrote: my rant

This seems like one of the most arrogant and bad takes.
And Vip isn't the greatest, I personally think it could do with some role list adjustments, Its not dog awful like lovers currently but it could certainly improve, Its also not the only mode in the game. all of this includes coven expansion roles, with roles such as Juggernaut you're not going to get them on classic nor are they always going to spawn in certain game modes.

Tos in general shouldn't revolve around one role such as the Jailor getting protected and evils trying to slowly kill off and find the Tp's, that's very boring and obnoxious for the protective roles that are dumbed down to targeting the same player over and over, where to role takes as much skill as a psychic.

While i dont find tps chaining each other the biggest issue, i dont think Protectives should have the option or mostly be forced to play in such a 1 dimensional way.


just because Jailor exists, is not a good reason to change how protectives work.... it would be much better to change how jailor works.

I mean, why stop at TPs? nerf escorts,trans, TIs as well, so that they cant visit the same person twice in a row, why not nerf town out of having any option and force them to play sub optimaly every 2nd night.... maybe make town abilities only work every 2nd night....

and why stop at nights? make it so town cant vote every 2nd day or cut it down to 1 trial per day, so town are forced to think about their decision instead of mindless vfr early game.

As for all any, youll always have some matches that are biased towards town, as well as towards evils, sometimes you even roll solo necromancer and get checked by sheriff n1 or killed by mafia n2. Some games are more challenging than others, thats what makes the mode fun....some matches are high risk high reward, some matches are a dice roll, some matches come down to kingmakers, some matches theres 2 mediums and a bunch of neutrals vs 4 coven/maf. There is no possible way to give every faction a fair shot at winning in every match (unlike the VIP role list, where both factions have a fair chance of winning, and it comes down to how well the coven play).... making TPs unable to chain, isnt going to make the mode that much fairer in the long run
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:36 pm

kyuss420 wrote:I mean, why stop at TPs? nerf escorts,trans, TIs as well, so that they cant visit the same person twice in a row, why not nerf town out of having any option and force them to play sub optimaly every 2nd night.... maybe make town abilities only work every 2nd night....


Escorts, TIs, and other town roles don't have a chaining meta that cancels out every evil killing role in the game besides fully powered Jugg with zero consequences/counters. I assume you know this though since you've resorted to just adding in nonsense suggestions to poison the well at this point.
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:33 am

kyuss420 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
kyuss420 wrote: my rant

This seems like one of the most arrogant and bad takes.
And Vip isn't the greatest, I personally think it could do with some role list adjustments, Its not dog awful like lovers currently but it could certainly improve, Its also not the only mode in the game. all of this includes coven expansion roles, with roles such as Juggernaut you're not going to get them on classic nor are they always going to spawn in certain game modes.

Tos in general shouldn't revolve around one role such as the Jailor getting protected and evils trying to slowly kill off and find the Tp's, that's very boring and obnoxious for the protective roles that are dumbed down to targeting the same player over and over, where to role takes as much skill as a psychic.

While i dont find tps chaining each other the biggest issue, i dont think Protectives should have the option or mostly be forced to play in such a 1 dimensional way.


just because Jailor exists, is not a good reason to change how protectives work.... it would be much better to change how jailor works.

I mean, why stop at TPs? nerf escorts,trans, TIs as well, so that they cant visit the same person twice in a row, why not nerf town out of having any option and force them to play sub optimaly every 2nd night.... maybe make town abilities only work every 2nd night....

and why stop at nights? make it so town cant vote every 2nd day or cut it down to 1 trial per day, so town are forced to think about their decision instead of mindless vfr early game.

As for all any, youll always have some matches that are biased towards town, as well as towards evils, sometimes you even roll solo necromancer and get checked by sheriff n1 or killed by mafia n2. Some games are more challenging than others, thats what makes the mode fun....some matches are high risk high reward, some matches are a dice roll, some matches come down to kingmakers, some matches theres 2 mediums and a bunch of neutrals vs 4 coven/maf. There is no possible way to give every faction a fair shot at winning in every match (unlike the VIP role list, where both factions have a fair chance of winning, and it comes down to how well the coven play).... making TPs unable to chain, isnt going to make the mode that much fairer in the long run


Well Transporter needs a hard nerf, self transports for one are busted.
You can also let a role such as mafioso have a one time strong man, but even if you nerfed jailor it wouldn't prevent tps chaining on the jailor unless you had ways of making it.
Spy needs to be completely reworked as a TI.
Lo I'd actually give the same treatment as Tp, as LO is a semi protective or at least the threat of LO catching someone.
Invest/Sheriff it would be pointless to check the same target twice in a row.
Escort, yes i dislike chain role blocking, I would also agree with jailor having similar treatment.

If you would suggest a way for town protectives to not brainlessly spam the same player such as a jailor, instead of using tactical prediction on mafia kills (which is why tp can be fun).

I don't care about all any, its not balanced really. I would like no tps to spam the same role to protect ect. but I dont really take all any balancing seriously
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby WildCard65 » Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:03 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
kyuss420 wrote: my rant

This seems like one of the most arrogant and bad takes.
And Vip isn't the greatest, I personally think it could do with some role list adjustments, Its not dog awful like lovers currently but it could certainly improve, Its also not the only mode in the game. all of this includes coven expansion roles, with roles such as Juggernaut you're not going to get them on classic nor are they always going to spawn in certain game modes.

Tos in general shouldn't revolve around one role such as the Jailor getting protected and evils trying to slowly kill off and find the Tp's, that's very boring and obnoxious for the protective roles that are dumbed down to targeting the same player over and over, where to role takes as much skill as a psychic.

While i dont find tps chaining each other the biggest issue, i dont think Protectives should have the option or mostly be forced to play in such a 1 dimensional way.


just because Jailor exists, is not a good reason to change how protectives work.... it would be much better to change how jailor works.

I mean, why stop at TPs? nerf escorts,trans, TIs as well, so that they cant visit the same person twice in a row, why not nerf town out of having any option and force them to play sub optimaly every 2nd night.... maybe make town abilities only work every 2nd night....

and why stop at nights? make it so town cant vote every 2nd day or cut it down to 1 trial per day, so town are forced to think about their decision instead of mindless vfr early game.

As for all any, youll always have some matches that are biased towards town, as well as towards evils, sometimes you even roll solo necromancer and get checked by sheriff n1 or killed by mafia n2. Some games are more challenging than others, thats what makes the mode fun....some matches are high risk high reward, some matches are a dice roll, some matches come down to kingmakers, some matches theres 2 mediums and a bunch of neutrals vs 4 coven/maf. There is no possible way to give every faction a fair shot at winning in every match (unlike the VIP role list, where both factions have a fair chance of winning, and it comes down to how well the coven play).... making TPs unable to chain, isnt going to make the mode that much fairer in the long run


Well Transporter needs a hard nerf, self transports for one are busted.
You can also let a role such as mafioso have a one time strong man, but even if you nerfed jailor it wouldn't prevent tps chaining on the jailor unless you had ways of making it.
Spy needs to be completely reworked as a TI.
Lo I'd actually give the same treatment as Tp, as LO is a semi protective or at least the threat of LO catching someone.
Invest/Sheriff it would be pointless to check the same target twice in a row.
Escort, yes i dislike chain role blocking, I would also agree with jailor having similar treatment.

If you would suggest a way for town protectives to not brainlessly spam the same player such as a jailor, instead of using tactical prediction on mafia kills (which is why tp can be fun).

I don't care about all any, its not balanced really. I would like no tps to spam the same role to protect ect. but I dont really take all any balancing seriously


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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:58 am

WildCard65 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
kyuss420 wrote: my rant

This seems like one of the most arrogant and bad takes.
And Vip isn't the greatest, I personally think it could do with some role list adjustments, Its not dog awful like lovers currently but it could certainly improve, Its also not the only mode in the game. all of this includes coven expansion roles, with roles such as Juggernaut you're not going to get them on classic nor are they always going to spawn in certain game modes.

Tos in general shouldn't revolve around one role such as the Jailor getting protected and evils trying to slowly kill off and find the Tp's, that's very boring and obnoxious for the protective roles that are dumbed down to targeting the same player over and over, where to role takes as much skill as a psychic.

While i dont find tps chaining each other the biggest issue, i dont think Protectives should have the option or mostly be forced to play in such a 1 dimensional way.


just because Jailor exists, is not a good reason to change how protectives work.... it would be much better to change how jailor works.

I mean, why stop at TPs? nerf escorts,trans, TIs as well, so that they cant visit the same person twice in a row, why not nerf town out of having any option and force them to play sub optimaly every 2nd night.... maybe make town abilities only work every 2nd night....

and why stop at nights? make it so town cant vote every 2nd day or cut it down to 1 trial per day, so town are forced to think about their decision instead of mindless vfr early game.

As for all any, youll always have some matches that are biased towards town, as well as towards evils, sometimes you even roll solo necromancer and get checked by sheriff n1 or killed by mafia n2. Some games are more challenging than others, thats what makes the mode fun....some matches are high risk high reward, some matches are a dice roll, some matches come down to kingmakers, some matches theres 2 mediums and a bunch of neutrals vs 4 coven/maf. There is no possible way to give every faction a fair shot at winning in every match (unlike the VIP role list, where both factions have a fair chance of winning, and it comes down to how well the coven play).... making TPs unable to chain, isnt going to make the mode that much fairer in the long run


Well Transporter needs a hard nerf, self transports for one are busted.
You can also let a role such as mafioso have a one time strong man, but even if you nerfed jailor it wouldn't prevent tps chaining on the jailor unless you had ways of making it.
Spy needs to be completely reworked as a TI.
Lo I'd actually give the same treatment as Tp, as LO is a semi protective or at least the threat of LO catching someone.
Invest/Sheriff it would be pointless to check the same target twice in a row.
Escort, yes i dislike chain role blocking, I would also agree with jailor having similar treatment.

If you would suggest a way for town protectives to not brainlessly spam the same player such as a jailor, instead of using tactical prediction on mafia kills (which is why tp can be fun).

I don't care about all any, its not balanced really. I would like no tps to spam the same role to protect ect. but I dont really take all any balancing seriously


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twice in a row?

I don't really call that essential it wouldn't change much. Its such a niche scenario that isn't important
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Re: Prevent TP Chaining

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:53 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
If you would suggest a way for town protectives to not brainlessly spam the same player such as a jailor, instead of using tactical prediction on mafia kills (which is why tp can be fun).



Well, maf want the jailor dead most of all, so a tactical prediction would be that the mafia is targeting the jailor. Also many players dont have a clue how to play as evil, and using tactical prediction would require that they do.....

I mean, they assume TPs are camping on the jailor, so, as evil, theyre never straight up hitting the jailor, so, as TP, after LO has confirmed you, theres no reason to be on the jailor anyway, so then what?
to kill the jailor, you need TPs dead, so the tactical prediction is maf are going to kill the TPs, so why wouldnt you protect a fellow TP?

The whole LO and chaining meta has come about from people using tactical prediction and figuring out the most optimal way to win a higher % of games over 100 games played... then dumbed down for people who dont have a clue, into an easy to follow early game meta...based on countering the evil teams most optimal early game plays.

Sure there are other high risk/high reward early game plays, sure everyone can keep quiet for 2-3 nights and give evils a roulette chance at a lucky kill, and leaving town in a position of majority loss if 1 mistake is made after that, but theres nothing tactical about that....

and changing it for classic, changes it for coven, where the LO meta isnt even a problem, thanks to crus, and TP chaining is harder, again thanks to crus, but also CL.

Also with trappers having to spend a night rebuilding, they basically only can protect every 2nd night if their trap is constanly broken by non attacking roles.
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