Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

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Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:53 pm

Introduction

Back in 2020 Town Traitor was introduced into Town of Salem. While initially the game attracted a lot of players, I feel like a few things caused decline in the gamemode's popularity. One of which was partially resolved by the update to the Retributionist, allowing them to be the Traitor and prevent a confirmed townie from existing. However, some of these things with Town Traitor still remain. The first and most notable issue is the fact it encourages people to leave games. It does this by creating the concept of Spam-Jailing or Spam-Roleblocking the last Mafia role until the Traitor is found. This is incredibly problematic as it gives the Traitor little to no chance to win unless the perma-roleblocked player leaves.

This brings me to the distribution of the role list, which is more Town-sided than Ranked. In Ranked there are 5.5 Evils. In Town Traitor, there is only 5, one of which is the Traitor. Why 5.5? Well Executioner can side with Town, but they have to kill a Town member as per their objective. The distribution of Evils being 0.5 different is huge, especially for the Witch, who seems to have an issue winning in Town Traitor. It often has been regarded as the "worst role to be" in the game mode, as they are simply there to prolong the timer, or die. Lastly, this brings me back to the Town Traitor Meta of "Veticide". Again this makes it very difficult for the Traitor to win, since they cannot do anything but die.

While this thread currently only deals with the Classic rendition of Town Traitor, I think an update to the role list would be nice. Here I propose several different changes to the role list to make it far less stalled.

List #1:
Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Evil
Random Neutral (Excluding Vampires)


List #2:
Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Evil
Random Neutral (Excluding Vampires)


About these lists:

Firstly, Mafia Killing is in the Random Mafia. This role list assumes that Tactical Mafia Killing is active. What is Tactical Mafia Killing? It is when a Mafia member gives up their Random Mafia ability in order to kill at night. They can alter between themselves of who kills at night, or not kill at all. In this case, if two of the Mafia choose to kill, the one who selected to kill first will take the kill and the second will perform their normal ability. This improves the power of the Mafia, a Sheriff and an Escort, and decreases the power of the Jailor. This prevents the Spam-Jailing that exists within the Town Traitor gamemode currently.

This may seem complex however, as the prospect of two choices beside a player on the List may be a little overwhelming or confusing for players who are just starting out with Town Traitor. Therefore, I agree with Soulshade55r's suggestion of adding a button, similar to Serial Killer's Cautious button, rather than giving two buttons on the list. The button - here I shall name the "Kill" button, if pressed, will mean the Mafia member who selects the button will be prioritsed to take the kill. Elsewise they undergo their normal ability. Like stated above, if two players select the button, the first to choose a Victim takes the attack, while the other perform's their normal ability.

Soulshade55r's comment for reference:
Spoiler:
Soulshade55r wrote:Also you can add something like SKs cautious button to mafia roles (which makes them perform the factional kill) including the traitor meaning they don't have to give up their abilities if they don't want to.

Would this work in ranked? No, in my opinion, it would buff Mafia too much. Here, however, due to the lower Evils number, and the weakness of most (but not all) Traitors to the Mafia's cause it may prove useful. If concerns are raised surrounding the number of Evils in the game, remove Random Neutral and give Town another Random Town.

In addition to the above, Brilliand and I propose that the Traitor is able to issue a scaling astral attack dependent on how many Mafia remain, providing that Mafia does not take an attack at night (either by choice, role blocked or jailed) and no lynch occurs during the day. For example: three Mafia remain, if no attack is taken and no lynch occurs in the day the Traitor may issue a Basic Attack; if two Mafia remain, this will be a Powerful Attack, and if only one Mafia remains it becomes an Unstoppable Attack - the Victim of which must be selected after the last trial of the day. The attack will not, however, occur until the end of the night cycle. This allows a Doctor to heal any potential Victims of the first two stages of attack.

Listed Example:
Spoiler: If 3 Mafia Remain + No attack is taken + No lynch occurs = Traitor issues a Basic Astral Attack at the end of the day.
If 2 Mafia Remain + No attack is taken + No lynch occurs = Traitor issues a Powerful Astral Attack at the end of the day.
If 1 Mafia Remains + No attack is taken + No lynch occurs = Traitor issues an Unstoppable Astral attack at the end of the day.
If 0 Mafia Remain + No lynch occurs = Traitor issues an Unstoppable Astral Attack at the end of the day.

The attack occurs at the end of the night cycle, allowing the Traitor to perform normal duties at night.

This proposal increases the value of Doctor, Blackmailer, Consort and Town Traitor Doctor, Bodyguard, and Lookout, while decreasing the value of a non-traitor Bodyguard. This allows the Traitor to continue to kill in the case of spam-jailing. Furthermore, this prevents the most common solution - the Veticide solution being a near perfect resolution. Do you risk a Veticide, when the Traitor can kill? That would be up to the Town itself. Finding the Traitor would be harder.

Conclusion

While Town Traitor has plenty of merits as a gamemode, such as improving one's scum reading ability, I do think the role list and game rules does leave a lot of space for the game to become stagnant and impossible to play as the Traitor. A few tweaks to these may change the game for the better, or worse. However, this proposal does not require the current Timer System in order to function.
Last edited by Cavespider17 on Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:38 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby WaveAqualei » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:58 pm

/support

I think the Neutrals might be an issue but it's worth testing.
Last edited by WaveAqualei on Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby EtherealEnder » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:03 pm

i don't play tt much and honestly the weird rolelist is a large part of the reason for that. like who wants a confirmed sheriff in a game where only 2/5 evils are sus. i think these lists will at the very least shake things up, and probably make it a more balanced and less stale mode in general

/support
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:17 pm

Town Traitor at least for what it is right now isn't really great because of how witch works, I think adding tactical mafia does somewhat fix that issue, Personally I'd say tactical mafia should be just implemented for all game modes, you mention ranked it wouldn't be balanced but ranked isn't exactly in the best state as of now.

I'm mostly support I do think your role lists are way better but I'm kinda iffy on witch/jester/exe sharing a slot in a game mode, I guess TT isn't really balanced anyway.

Also you can add something like SKs cautious button to mafia roles (which makes them perform the factional kill) including the traitor meaning they don't have to give up their abilities if they don't want to.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby James2 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:23 am

The perpetual jailng/RBing issue could be solved by In-Game Suicide.

I agree that Witch either needs to be removed or should be ignored by the timer.

Jester shouldn't be allowed in TT since it would effectively get a free win whenever the timer activated. Executioner would either get a free win (if its target could be TT), or would be actively harmful to the mafia during TT time (by confirming its target if the target can't be TT). Amnesiac would be a confirmed non-TT if it remembered town. Adding an NK might be interesting, but only if it were a confirmed NK. A Random Neutral slot that could go NK or non-NK would effectively make it two different gamemodes depending on the initial rand. There's a reason RN isn't used outside of Custom.

Survivor would be the least problematic true neutral to add, though it would still be a bad idea. Survivor could be treated as a confirmed townie (possibly the only one) during TT time if there were 6+ living players or if the Survivor's loyalty was taken for granted. Moreover, Survivor would have a very strong incentive to side with town throughout the game, since whether the Survivor could win a 5 player TT time would depend (in a boolean way) on whether town believed the Survivor would continue voting with them or not.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:10 am

WaveAqualei wrote:/SUPPORT

I love both of these, specifically the second one. You have no idea how swingy TT is, especially in Coven. Once 5 townies are dead it’s GGs.


Thank you. The Coven's version of Town Traitor I will have to look at seperately, as unlike in the Classic version, all Coven members do possess a kill ability of some kind, so I wouild have to seriously take that into consideration.

EtherealEnder wrote:i don't play tt much and honestly the weird rolelist is a large part of the reason for that. like who wants a confirmed sheriff in a game where only 2/5 evils are sus. i think these lists will at the very least shake things up, and probably make it a more balanced and less stale mode in general

/support


I agree with the confirmed town slots being somewhat problematic. Not only for finding evils, but for retracting evil's claimspace.

Soulshade55r wrote:
Also you can add something like SKs cautious button to mafia roles (which makes them perform the factional kill) including the traitor meaning they don't have to give up their abilities if they don't want to.


I agree, adding a "Ability" button would be useful, and make the list-selection less confusing. I will keep this in mind when I update and make tweaks to the thread. Thank you. :)

James2 wrote:The perpetual jailng/RBing issue could be solved by In-Game Suicide.

Jester shouldn't be allowed in TT since it would effectively get a free win whenever the timer activated. Executioner would either get a free win (if its target could be TT), or would be actively harmful to the mafia during TT time (by confirming its target if the target can't be TT).



This choice encourages people to give up, and I really don't think it is a good idea. I think it also would add to the end-game issue which currently exists. Not once in this thread did I mention the timer, which maybe I should have. I don't think in this particular version a timer is actually needed, as the Traitor would gain TMK abilities. Furthermore, in this version an Executioner and a Jester would still have to work for their win - as there is no timer, due to the TMK being active.

I do agree having a "Confirmed" survivor would be a bad idea. But I disagree with why you believe RN would be bad. I think the major issue Random Neutral is a bad idea is due to the Vampire spawn chance, which I have excluded in my role lists above. While yes it does add a little uncertainty to the game, it can increases the Evil spawn from 5 minimum and 6 maximum. Assuming that each Neutral Benign, Jester and Executioner count as 0.5 of an evil as they have a choice in whether or not to side against town the result is 5.4 Evils on average (if my maths is correct - which I hope it is). So I don't think RN is too much of an issue.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby James2 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:55 pm

Cavespider17 wrote:This choice encourages people to give up, and I really don't think it is a good idea. I think it also would add to the end-game issue which currently exists.

It doesn't in any sense encourage people to give up. Dying when it benefits your team isn't giving up. And people who do want to give up are already free to do so.
Not once in this thread did I mention the timer, which maybe I should have. I don't think in this particular version a timer is actually needed, as the Traitor would gain TMK abilities. Furthermore, in this version an Executioner and a Jester would still have to work for their win - as there is no timer, due to the TMK being active.

If there's no timer then I agree the objections to Exe/Jester are moot.
I do agree having a "Confirmed" survivor would be a bad idea. But I disagree with why you believe RN would be bad. I think the major issue Random Neutral is a bad idea is due to the Vampire spawn chance, which I have excluded in my role lists above. While yes it does add a little uncertainty to the game, it can increases the Evil spawn from 5 minimum and 6 maximum. Assuming that each Neutral Benign, Jester and Executioner count as 0.5 of an evil as they have a choice in whether or not to side against town the result is 5.4 Evils on average (if my maths is correct - which I hope it is). So I don't think RN is too much of an issue.

With the way TT works currently an unconfirmed Survivor would be just as bad if not worse, from the POV of it needing to proactively side with town, as a confirmed one. Though if your proposal regarding TT time were implemented that objection would also be moot.

Town vs. Mafia vs. NK is a fundamentally different set up from Town vs. Mafia. That having an NK vs not having one only changes the number of evils by less than 1 is besides the point since NKs have kill power.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:52 pm

James2 wrote:It doesn't in any sense encourage people to give up. Dying when it benefits your team isn't giving up. And people who do want to give up are already free to do so.


They are actively choosing to die - which is the same issue as DCing which is questionable at best - It shouldn't have to happen. Furthermore, in this variation it is stated that Tactical Mafia Killing is active. Therefore they aren't dying to help their team at all. They are just choosing to die and give up - I explained this in the section below the role lists for how this works in these lists.

I have previously stated my opinion on the RN situation and I will continue to disagree - the current state of TT lacks the uncertainty and chaos caused by evils which significantly harms evils. I do not think arguing this further however, will change either of our minds.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby James2 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:00 pm

Cavespider17 wrote:They are actively choosing to die

And? Individual survival isn't part of the mafia wincon.
Furthermore, in this variation it is stated that Tactical Mafia Killing is active. Therefore they aren't dying to help their team at all. They are just choosing to die and give up - I explained this in the section below the role lists for how this works in these lists.

I understand that. My proposal was addressing the game as-is.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Brilliand » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:12 pm

I see you've made this idea dependent on TMK. While TMK is an unambiguously good idea, it's also a relatively complex proposal that the devs haven't gotten around to yet. I think that dependency greatly reduces the chances that this idea will be implemented anytime soon.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:25 pm

Brilliand wrote:I see you've made this idea dependent on TMK. While TMK is an unambiguously good idea, it's also a relatively complex proposal that the devs haven't gotten around to yet. I think that dependency greatly reduces the chances that this idea will be implemented anytime soon.


I agree TMK would resolve a lot of issues in TT which is why it is written up here. I think the implementation, while slightly complex, would improve the gamemode significantly. :)
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Brilliand » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:19 pm

One big problem with allowing the Traitor to simply benefit from TMK is that it results in the Traitor functioning as a straight-up killing role, which makes him much easier to find and is generally contrary to the theme the mode is going for.

This thread is worth a read: A thread proposing that lone Traitor be able to kill, finally resulting in the current 3-day countdown rule being implemented
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby James2 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:33 pm

Brilliand wrote:One big problem with allowing the Traitor to simply benefit from TMK is that it results in the Traitor functioning as a straight-up killing role, which makes him much easier to find and is generally contrary to the theme the mode is going for.

This thread is worth a read: A thread proposing that lone Traitor be able to kill, finally resulting in the current 3-day countdown rule being implemented

Had no idea you came up with the countdown lol. And you correctly foresaw the problem with the simplified version of it. Nice.

Your directed-mislynch idea wasn't bad either.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:27 pm

Brilliand wrote:One big problem with allowing the Traitor to simply benefit from TMK is that it results in the Traitor functioning as a straight-up killing role, which makes him much easier to find and is generally contrary to the theme the mode is going for.


They won't because of the fact they can't kill until 2 mafia are dead. Which is what I say in the paragraph. I really think this is the way forward. I think the countdown is bad for Town Traitor as it encourages leaving.


Edit: Updated the thread Traitor paragraph with the advice of Brilliand to fix concerns about the Traitor becoming a pure killer. Removed section on Traitor having TMK abilities, added section on Scaling-No-Kills (With clear example).
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby TuNa36 » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:44 am

/support but to fix classic TT you need to get rid of ban evaders first , classic TT is literally unplayable because of ban evaders
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:23 am

TuNa36 wrote:/support but to fix classic TT you need to get rid of ban evaders first , classic TT is literally unplayable because of ban evaders

I don’t think that’s something you can control
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Flavorable » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:53 am

WaveAqualei wrote:
TuNa36 wrote:/support but to fix classic TT you need to get rid of ban evaders first , classic TT is literally unplayable because of ban evaders

I don’t think that’s something you can control


If only we had a magic want we could wave around to make all trolls immediately disappear. :(
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby WaveAqualei » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:27 am

Flavorable wrote:
WaveAqualei wrote:
TuNa36 wrote:/support but to fix classic TT you need to get rid of ban evaders first , classic TT is literally unplayable because of ban evaders

I don’t think that’s something you can control


If only we had a magic want we could wave around to make all trolls immediately disappear. :(

KLJHASDLSD right?
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:39 pm

TuNa36 wrote:/support but to fix classic TT you need to get rid of ban evaders first , classic TT is literally unplayable because of ban evaders


Thanks for the support. :)

Flavorable wrote:
If only we had a magic want we could wave around to make all trolls immediately disappear. :(


Yeah that's a whole different kettle of fish, although I do think scaling time outs would potentially help the issue.

If anyone has any thoughts in regards to fixing Coven TT, I am all ears. I have a few ideas but I am not making very much progress on it.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Brilliand » Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:30 pm

Kirize12 wrote:So...does TMK have the power to boost the Mafia's win rate 15%? I don't think it does, considering again that it only interacts with two roles (Jailor and Escort), so you're gonna need to explain why it would buff Mafia too much and what you base that assumption off of. Of course, if it DOES boost Mafia's win rate by 15%, we could always nerf other aspects of the Mafia - such as making Framer frames not-so-permanent, which is a good thing since it diminishes the Framer's skill level. Also, with the addition of TMK, Mafioso will likely be switched out for an RT - meaning Town gets an extra member. While Mafia will overall benefit from the increased claimspace and will no longer have to be deadlocked, they still lose a member in Ranked - that's a big enough nerf of its own.


Do note that TMK also allows Mafia to have 3 non-killing power roles instead of just the 2 it has now. I'm not sure how big of a winrate boost that would give, but it interacts with more than just Jailor and Escort.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:28 am

Kirize12 wrote:If a change as drastic as TMK is made to Mafia, it should act that way across all modes. Since TMK disallows deadlocking and nerfs Jailor substantially while putting more risk into the confirmable Escort's ability, it should be added to all modes.


This is a Chaos Gamemode. Chaos gamemodes are able to function differently to a lot of other gamemodes so I don't think it is as big of an issue.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:13 pm

Cavespider17 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If a change as drastic as TMK is made to Mafia, it should act that way across all modes. Since TMK disallows deadlocking and nerfs Jailor substantially while putting more risk into the confirmable Escort's ability, it should be added to all modes.


This is a Chaos Gamemode. Chaos gamemodes are able to function differently to a lot of other gamemodes so I don't think it is as big of an issue.


Issue is your suggesting a good balance suggestion that should apply to all modes not only town traitor.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:46 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
I also asked you a question: how big would the boost in winrate be toward the Mafia if TMK was added to Ranked?


I don't know and I didn't see your question the first time (This would require Many tests, and I would suggest this into TG if I didn't have another nomination - and I hope we'd only be looking at TT). Either way I don't think it would be a good thing for ranked. I think ranked needs a whole new list all together. Regardless, I'd like to keep the focus to Town Traitor and not Ranked here, as I still need to do the Coven TT suggestion section of this thread.
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:17 pm

Kirize12 wrote:What are your opinions on simply ending the game once the OG Mafia rests in peace?


I think with Scaling traitor Kills it won't be needed. :)
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Re: Suggestion - Town Traitor Gamemode Update

Postby Cavespider17 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:47 pm

Kirize12 wrote:I don't like the idea of Traitor being able to kill (outside of role abilities).


I think I understand the concerns, however a few hoops do have to be jumped through in order for them to be able to.
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