Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the community

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Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the community

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:16 am

You are not doing anything anyway.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby Flavorable » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:35 am

Just because suggestions aren't willy nilly implemented, it doesn't mean nothing is being done. Most suggestions are likely bad, not feasible, or need waaaaaay more finetuning than people think, or heck, they might even be in conflict with the vision the Devs have for the game. It is their game, after all.

Leaving gameplay or balance changes solely to the community is in no way feasible, players are not developers
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:33 am

As far as I can understand from the OP of this thread, the reason why pretty much nothing here gets implemented is that nothing gets enough consensus among the community. It's usually 2 supporting replies and another person arguing against the proposal. The main problem is that the forum rules say that you can't just reply with "support" to a suggestion, so of course consensus is going to be harder to get. Now that I think about it, we should always use polls in suggestions.

Also, even suggestions that were widely supported in the forums received backslash. I'm mainly talking about ranked rolelist changes and the spy rework (although it lost the poll).

The reasons Flavorable mentioned are also valid, though I wish she hadn't said "probably". She is likely to have enough experience to say "most suggestions are bad", but saying "most suggestions are likely bad" is just prejudiced and goes against the point of this subforum, I think.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby EqsyLootz » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:28 am

SkorumpowanyGlut wrote:You are not doing anything anyway.


You must understand the developers are extremely busy and it's not like they can implement a change in the click of a button, it takes hours upon hours of work to simply make a new role or gamemode for us to enjoy. You need to cut them some slack and don't be so rude by saying "You are not doing anything" as I strongly doubt you could do any better.

Patience is key, eventually they'll bring out the changes they have in mind such as what flavorable so kindly pointed out.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:52 am

yea, besides all the classic players will make suggestions that throw coven balance out of whack...

my favourite suggestion I saw in a VIP lobby - ''VIP should get a defence stat''
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:11 am

Joacgroso wrote:nothing gets enough consensus among the community


You can't please everyone, you never could. You also need to be an experienced player who understands the game at deeper level than
the majority to judge what opinions are reasonable and what not. An opinion from a casual player who opens the game once per week to relax/chill out/have fun may be less valuable than the one provided by a more involved person who plays more seriously and puts a lot of though into their strategy.

You can't just start a poll with a mindset 'if we get x% of votes, this change goes through'.
Why? Because many players may vote from a standpoint that is not objectively good for the game (they're not aware of it).

That's not how you handle a multiplayer, competitive game and that's not what other companies do (at least those I know about).


Joacgroso wrote:Also, even suggestions that were widely supported in the forums received backslash.

It's important to listen to valid counter arguments but words only can go so far. At some point, you have to take a step forward
and implement an idea to test it/feel it in an actual game, going beyond conceptual understanding. Obviously, that idea should be the one
with the least intensification of logically concluded disapproval.

Flavorable wrote:Most suggestions are likely bad, not feasible, or need waaaaaay more finetuning than people think(...)

Have you ever considered the possibility of implementing good suggestions?

Flavorable wrote:Just because suggestions aren't willy nilly implemented, it doesn't mean nothing is being done.

Over the last year, the only gameplay change (no QoL, bugfix or cosmetic) was a role list tweak.

If there is no executive force, everything becomes opinions appearing and vainishing meaninglessly.
Devs apparently don't have their own mind and to change anything they must be lead by hand, but here is an issue -
there are many hands, each pulling in a different direction. However, staying in place is a bad idea which leads to the gameplay(meta) becoming stale and boring while glaring issues remain unsolved, increasing frustration among players over time.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:10 am

What I was trying to say was that forum suggestions rarely involve more than 4 people, which isn't enough consensus even if they all agree. The problem is not people disagreeing, it's people not participating. To be fair, the devs do implement things on their own. The new disguiser, the coven expansion, lovers and vips are things that came out of nowhere, for example. I suggested polls because many people might agree with a suggestion but not openly support it because they have nothing to add to the thread. I'm not saying that BMG should implement suggestions because of that, it's just a way we can show more support on suggestions.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby EqsyLootz » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:26 am

SkorumpowanyGlut wrote:Over the last year, the only gameplay change (no QoL, bugfix or cosmetic) was a role list tweak.


Actually, Forger, Disguiser, Framer, Retributionist, Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf and Juggernaut all recieved a role change in the past year.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:39 pm

EqsyLootz wrote:
SkorumpowanyGlut wrote:Over the last year, the only gameplay change (no QoL, bugfix or cosmetic) was a role list tweak.


Actually, Forger, Disguiser, Framer, Retributionist, Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf and Juggernaut all recieved a role change in the past year.


dont forget pirate, which is still role blocking abilities, but not visits, of role block immune characters.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby SilverCruz » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:27 am

EqsyLootz wrote:the developers are extremely busy


With a new game that nobody asked for or wanted.

The problem is less that nothing is implemented, and more that they rarely ever respond to anything. Hell, they struggle to respond to their e-mails. They either need more manpower or more efficiency, if not both.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby Benn3 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:26 pm

It's not that simple for them to just "hand the balancing and gameplay changes over to the community." There are many suggestions here that are great, but there's also bad ones, as Flavorable said. I've seen many people support role ideas that seem to be made within one thought, with no idea of balancing, uniqueness, or generally being fun to play.(take interviewer for example. everybody seemed to love it, but dumb it down and they're just a more complicated investigator. interesting role but people sometimes take one glance at a role idea and immediately think it's great without comparing it to already existing roles first or wondering how it'd actually play in-game)

I do think they should be listening to the community more as a WHOLE though. There's many additions/changes that the community, as a WHOLE, has wanted over the years, such as a Framer rework/major buff, but this hasn't happened yet. Joacgroso also makes a really good point; most role suggestions here(or at least as of 2021) get a few replies of people liking it, and then some people disliking it. Especially right now, there's not a lot of people to support suggestions enough to where they should be added to the game. This Thread, the one Joac posted seems to be the last time a developer really asked for input from the community. Sure, shapesifter asked about ways to improve Framer back in 2020, but they never ended up getting changed. Disguiser just got reworked instead, which people have been disliking.

On the topic of them being busy rn, yes they are with Traitors in Salem. Although, I don't see why they don't have a couple people still working on TOS while the main devs work on TIS, TOS still has many issues and there's many things people want changed, as I said earlier.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:19 am

Benn3 wrote:I don't see why they don't have a couple people still working on TOS while the main devs work on TIS


A couple people would be literally half the company.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby Flavorable » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:25 am

SilverCruz wrote:
EqsyLootz wrote:the developers are extremely busy


With a new game that nobody asked for or wanted.

The problem is less that nothing is implemented, and more that they rarely ever respond to anything. Hell, they struggle to respond to their e-mails. They either need more manpower or more efficiency, if not both.


3 to 5 business days is actually quite standard for most companies. Heck, I've had support requests/tickets with companies that have taken over a month to get back to their customers, or sometimes ignore them altogether when they don't want to help (I still have an open request for a monetary refund on a double charged purchase with a company from 2 years ago, despite having sent over 12 e-mails).

And no developer should ever have to go around responding to suggestions e.t.c., why? Because if they respond to some, they're biased, if they respond to all including the ones that are bad, they're rude/mean/don't listen to the community/lazy, e.t.c. There's never a way to please everyone, so instead, when they want to change things, they look through posted suggestions and see if they're viable. And if they're otherwise important, they get brought up by forum staff and again, the devs check if they're viable, within their vision for the game, and whether or not it's something that needs to happen post-haste or not.

Also, there's plenty of people wanting a new game. Heck, it's been asked since almost the beginning of ToS whether or not there would be a new game coming in the future. I don't get the whole "how dare game developers develop a new game! How dare they try to expand their brand, let alone try to make some money beyond just one game"-type attitude.
As much as people generally like to think differently, games and game companies don't revolve around around the people playing them alone. Otherwise every game in the world would be free, and every suggestion ever posted anywhere by any player would be implemented. And everyone knows that's not even remotely viable. Games cost money, time and effort and while big triple A companies have millions of dollars to play around with and entire teams of developers, QA, PR-staff and entire support teams, small companies (like the 3-dev team BMG has) have very little funding to work with, and with one game, only that game is their income, which isn't just income to host the game's servers and forums, but also has to get them fed, clothed, housed e.t.c., and they heavily rely on volunteers much like myself and other staff, to help them out. Now just because that's not good enough for you, doesn't mean it's an unusual practice.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:23 am

yes, I suggest the devs create a pay to win ''whale-up'' game, or an online casino game, to bring in the millions of dollars they need to expand, so then they can put (and probly lose) $1000s into a $5 dollar browser game ^^

Im sure they could think up a few good ''features'' for Salem Slots.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:54 am

Flavorable wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:
EqsyLootz wrote:the developers are extremely busy


With a new game that nobody asked for or wanted.

The problem is less that nothing is implemented, and more that they rarely ever respond to anything. Hell, they struggle to respond to their e-mails. They either need more manpower or more efficiency, if not both.


3 to 5 business days is actually quite standard for most companies. Heck, I've had support requests/tickets with companies that have taken over a month to get back to their customers, or sometimes ignore them altogether when they don't want to help (I still have an open request for a monetary refund on a double charged purchase with a company from 2 years ago, despite having sent over 12 e-mails).

And no developer should ever have to go around responding to suggestions e.t.c., why? Because if they respond to some, they're biased, if they respond to all including the ones that are bad, they're rude/mean/don't listen to the community/lazy, e.t.c. There's never a way to please everyone, so instead, when they want to change things, they look through posted suggestions and see if they're viable. And if they're otherwise important, they get brought up by forum staff and again, the devs check if they're viable, within their vision for the game, and whether or not it's something that needs to happen post-haste or not.

Also, there's plenty of people wanting a new game. Heck, it's been asked since almost the beginning of ToS whether or not there would be a new game coming in the future. I don't get the whole "how dare game developers develop a new game! How dare they try to expand their brand, let alone try to make some money beyond just one game"-type attitude.
As much as people generally like to think differently, games and game companies don't revolve around around the people playing them alone. Otherwise every game in the world would be free, and every suggestion ever posted anywhere by any player would be implemented. And everyone knows that's not even remotely viable. Games cost money, time and effort and while big triple A companies have millions of dollars to play around with and entire teams of developers, QA, PR-staff and entire support teams, small companies (like the 3-dev team BMG has) have very little funding to work with, and with one game, only that game is their income, which isn't just income to host the game's servers and forums, but also has to get them fed, clothed, housed e.t.c., and they heavily rely on volunteers much like myself and other staff, to help them out. Now just because that's not good enough for you, doesn't mean it's an unusual practice.


Well I was thinking more like two weeks being generous, not so much three to five business days.

Don't you find it the least bit questionable to have three or four people trying to maintain two different live services? The problem with Town of Salem on the monetization side is that there's nothing of value to monetize because the center of attention is a chatbox in the bottom left corner of the screen, and if you removed all the visual fluff the game would still work perfectly fine. There's a premium currency, but there's nothing interesting to get with that currency because cosmetics are so meaningless and if you buy all the Premiums, you get 160 Town Points a win which makes five wins for a Scroll, which will pile up after a while. This game was a terrible idea from step one as far as monetization goes, honestly, but I'm just being Captain Hindsight at that point.

Maybe they should just add a subscription that gives you infinite scrolls and taunts or something. I dunno. That or open a donation box, whichever.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:43 am

They haven't announced a single update for TOS since TIS was announced, and I got ghosted when asking if they'll still be adding new features to TOS.

Idk if they've 100% abandoned it yet, but it looks like it's about 95% abandoned now. I hope they at least have the courtesy to release the source code to the community so we can maintain it when they kill it off.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby EqsyLootz » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:25 pm

PleaseReadSiege wrote:They haven't announced a single update for TOS since TIS was announced, and I got ghosted when asking if they'll still be adding new features to TOS.

Idk if they've 100% abandoned it yet, but it looks like it's about 95% abandoned now. I hope they at least have the courtesy to release the source code to the community so we can maintain it when they kill it off.


Can't wait to see all the excellent gameplay changes and updates you will provide us smh.
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Re: Hand over balancing and gameplay changes to the communit

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:15 am

EqsyLootz wrote:
PleaseReadSiege wrote:They haven't announced a single update for TOS since TIS was announced, and I got ghosted when asking if they'll still be adding new features to TOS.

Idk if they've 100% abandoned it yet, but it looks like it's about 95% abandoned now. I hope they at least have the courtesy to release the source code to the community so we can maintain it when they kill it off.


Can't wait to see all the excellent gameplay changes and updates you will provide us smh.


Yeah because that whole open-source model was just SUCH a failure right? Nothing good EVER comes from those. Good to know you'd rather have the game go away entirely some day instead of living on. smdh...
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