Elo Rework

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Elo Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:00 pm

4000th Post :)

Note: All of my knowledge of the ToS Elo system comes from this wiki page.

The Elo system is completely broken in my eyes. The main issue with it is that Elo inflation allows any competent player to reach Master Elo if they play enough games. Mathematically, a 2000 Elo Town is expected to beat a 1200 Elo Mafia 99 percent of the time. I do believe that the Town would win in 80 or even 90 percent of these games, but ToS is random enough that the weaker Mafia would win a lot more than 1 percent of the time. Anyway, here's how I think Elo should be fixed:

1. Different K-factors for Town and Mafia
Elo inflation exists in ToS because a of differences between the actual and expected winrates of each faction. The game calculates an offline winrate factor that is used to modify Elo changes. As far as I know, this isn't dependent of the Elo of players in the game. However, Town wins more often at higher levels than at lower levels, leading to Elo inflation at higher levels and deflation at lower levels (this also partially explains Elo hell). To see this, imagine a situation where 9 Townies face 6 scum. All players have the same Elo. The overall winrate is assumed to be 50/50, but Town really wins 60% of games at this Elo level. Each faction gets +10 for a win and -10 for a loss. If these players play five games with the same factions, it is expected that Town will win 3 of the games. This would result in +10 Elo overall for the 9 Townies and -10 for the 6 scum. The average Elo of the group will increase by 2 despite the fact that these players did not play against anyone outside the group. Worst case scenario, players could intentionally queue at an unpopular time, all end up in the same game, and purposely throw to let Town win. After hundreds of matches, all players in the group will reach master level.

My proposed solution for this is to change the K-factors for each faction. For example, Town could have a K-factor of 20 while Mafia has a K-factor of 45. I will address Neutrals later. In any setup where Mafia's K-factor is 9/4 that of Town's, there will be no Elo inflation for Town and Mafia members regardless of the accuracy of predicted winrates.

2. Change handling of base winrates
Right now, the amount that a player's Elo changes is multiplied by a factor based on their faction's baseline winrate. The wiki claims that this is equal to 1 minus the winrate, but this wouldn't make sense when the player loses because it would punish players more for losing as a harder faction. I am going to assume that the factor is changed to the factional winrate when the player loses. So a player who would normally gain +15 Elo for winning with a 20% winrate role would actually gain +12 for a win and -3 for a loss. For factions with moderate winrates, this shouldn't be problematic, but it could lead to disproportionately low weighting on games where a player has a role with a low winrate (such as Witch). Assume a K-factor of 30 and a 10% baseline winrate for Mafia. I know this is unrealistic but I'm going to discuss Neutrals later. Normally, a faction with a 382 Elo advantage would be expected to win 90% of the time. In this case, if the Mafia has a 382 Elo advantage, they would gain 30 * 0.1 * 0.9 = 2.7 Elo for a win and lose the same amount for a loss. Meanwhile, a faction with a 50% winrate and no Elo advantage would get 30 * 0.5 * 0.5 = 7.5 Elo for a win and lose that amount for a loss. Players who are good at difficult roles will have unfairly low Elo while players who are especially bad at those roles will have unfairly high Elo.

To fix this, incorporate the factional winrate in the original win probability calculation. Playing as an easy role should be treated like having higher Elo and vice-versa. The team Elo modification should be set so that the expected winrate for a faction is equal to its baseline winrate when the two factions have equal Elo. For instance, being part of a faction with a 10% winrate should be treated the same as having 382/2 = 191 fewer Elo while the opposing faction is treated as having 191 more Elo. If both teams really have 1200 Elo, the win probability calculation should be performed assuming a 1009 Elo for the 10% winrate faction and 1391 Elo for the 90% winrate faction. The actual Elo values don't matter, just that the difference is 382.

3. Rework placement games
This isn't as much of a problem, but placement games can provide a secondary source of Elo inflation or deflation even with the above fixes. With those changes, the average Elo would still be 1200 if everyone plays their placement games at the same time. However, players who start late will have some of their games count as placement games while everyone else has those games count normally. If the players who start late are more skilled and win more often, they will gain more Elo than the other players lose due to the higher K-factor for placement games. Eventually, this would lead to a higher average Elo across the playerbase.

The best way to fix this would be to remove placement games, but this would make it harder to grind. Other solutions such as averaging the K-factors across all players in a game or changing everyone's Elo by a few points within a game to counteract inflation/deflation would disproportionately weight games where there are a lot of players doing placement games. Another solution would be to decrease the K-factor for all players as the season proceeds, but this would unfairly punish good players who start later in the season. I'm not sure of the best way to go about this, but I would suggest a version of that last suggestion. The season should start with a "placement period" of about one week where the K-factor is doubled. Players should be informed that this is the best time to grind and that they may have a harder time increasing their Elo if they start later on.

On another note, the K-factor should be the same for all players regardless of Elo. Having a lower K-factor for higher ratings may work in a game like chess where you have one opponent who is likely to have a similar rating to you, but it could lead to inflation or deflation in ToS. If master Elo players have a lower K-factor and lose more often than expected (due to regression to the mean), they will lose less Elo than their opponents gain, leading to Elo inflation.

4. How to handle Neutrals
This is by far the hardest part of making an Elo system for a game like ToS, and I'm not exactly sure how the current system handles them. Treating Neutrals as separate from Town and Mafia would lead to inflation if they win more often than expected. And if you treat NEs as Mafia members and adjust the K-factors to prevent inflation, Mafia members will be incentivized to kill NEs once they are guaranteed to win. This is how the Town of Morons Elo system works, but it wouldn't work in ToS. However, having the Mafia K-factor stay constant while punishing the Town for NE wins could work. If an NE gets +18 Elo for winning and there are nine Townies, each one could get -2 in addition to the amount they would normally lose for losing the game. For Witch, this shouldn't cause any issues besides encouraging Townies to possibly push a Witch over a Mafia member. This would make it significantly harder for Executioners to side with Town and would encourage Townies to deny Executioners the win, which is arguably a good thing since Executioner is designed to be anti-Town. These influences would generally only result in Elo swings of 1-2 points, so they would likely not be a major problem.

The other difficulty in incorporating Neutrals into the Elo system is calculating their win probability. A Witch's win probability is likely influenced by their own Elo, the overall Mafia Elo, and the overall Town Elo. The Executioner's win probability likely involves the same factors as Witch but also its target's Elo. It may be difficult to calculate how much each of these factors influences the overall win probability calculation. One way to do it could be a logistic regression where the relative values of each coefficient could be interpreted as the relative influence of each variable on the overall win probability. I'm certainly no expert on machine learning, but maybe someone with more knowledge of the topic can provide better insight. If these values do not hold for all Elo levels, there would not be any overall inflation, but players may have a slightly positive or negative expected Elo change depending on their faction. For instance, it is likely that Mafia Elo is more important in determining a Witch's win probability at high Elo levels because Witches are more likely to coordinate with Mafia in those games. If that's the case, a Witch who is much better than the Mafia in a high-Elo game will win less often than expected, causing them to lose Elo as Witch in the long run. Since high-Elo players tend to play with players with lower ratings, they are likely to experience deflation while weaker players would experience inflation. This is not as severe of an issue as the current Elo inflation because it only affects Witch and Executioner compared to all 15 slots, and it does not affect the average Elo across the playerbase.

5. New team Elo calculation
Currently, the average factional Elo is used to determine the win probabilities for Town and Mafia. This assumes that all players contribute equally to the victory of a faction. However, it is very common for one skilled player to carry the rest of their team, especially among Town members. Intuitively, a Town with nine 1200 Elo members is less likely to win than a Town with eight 1100 Elo players and one 2000 Elo player even though both teams have the same average Elo. As a result, better players are likely to win more often than their average Elo suggests, causing them to experience Elo inflation while weaker players experience deflation.

This problem can be mitigated by using the procedure that I suggested for calculating Neutral win probabilities. While far from perfect, it would lessen the inflation that high Elo players experience by carrying weaker teammates. The win probability of Town is influenced by the top Elo of a Townie, average Town Elo, average Mafia Elo, and top Mafia Elo among other factors. The model could also include the Elo for other players and possibly certain roles like the Jailor or Godfather. The win probabilities will still be slightly off the true values, but they would probably be closer than the values obtained by just taking the average Elo for each faction.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Superalex11 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:37 pm

1. Yes.
2. Yes. This can be further tuned based on particular role lineups as well.
3. Yes, most importantly elo-independent k-factors.
4. Yes-ish. The complexity in solving this could probably be managed by just carefully building models and tuning to optimization. Complexity of the models could scale with devs' preference for amount of work they're willing to do (™).
5. Yes. Also plugging an addition to this point: Event-based factors
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:00 pm

is there a tl;dr

if not then im egoposting so i can read this later
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Superalex11 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:22 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:is there a tl;dr

tl;dr of OP:
Assuming wiki is correct (at least most probably is), problems with current elo system and how to fix:

1) Problem: Winrate differences at various elo levels are unaccounted for, leading to elo inflation.
Solution: Set elo k-factor (math thing) so this can't happen.

2) Problem: Elo change based on winrate is calculated wrongly.
Solution: Low expected win chance should give low negative elo change when losing, but HIGH positive elo gain when winning; and vice versa.

3a) Problem: Late-season placement games lead to elo inflation
Solution: Unsure; something like rebalancing other players' elo when a placement-game-player is present

3b) Problem: Elo k-factor is smaller for high elo players (so their elo inherently changes less); this is bad because high elo players still match up with low elo players (small playerbase), leading to elo inflation.
Solution: Make elo k-factor constant between elo levels.

4) Problem: Third/fourth teams (neutrals) make elo math weird and aren't properly accounted for, leading to elo inflation.
Solution: Do math stuff and fancy modeling to find best way to fix elo change factors for neutrals.

5) Problem: Team elo is calculated wrongly and so misrepresents a team's chance to win.
Solution: Do more math stuff and fancy modeling to find best way to calculate team elo.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby cob709 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:39 pm

a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Flavorable » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:13 am

cob709 wrote:a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well


There is no way to decide what playing well means in a text based game unless you have a full team of experts reading through every single game, and that isn't happening.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:12 am

cob709 wrote:a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well


also promotes high risk plays, with a big payoff for success and not so much of a punishment for failure. which , in certain circumstances, would lead to sub optimal plays for max elo increase. like, would a vig take a shot with a 80/20 chance of hitting town instead of waiting a day for a 50/50?
also rewards lucky plays that took a random click to pull off cos theres no way to tell between a lucky click and a purpose click.... like a vig shooting n2, with 2-3 town claims as info.

so whats the difference between a ''well played'' game vs a won game that wasnt well played?
How would that work for medium?
a lot of that would depend on your role, which in turn, total ELO would depend on how many times you got a powerful role in the season, which is purely RNG
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby cob709 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:40 pm

Flavorable wrote:
cob709 wrote:a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well


There is no way to decide what playing well means in a text based game unless you have a full team of experts reading through every single game, and that isn't happening.

don't need experts. just need some forum-level intelligent people to look through it and vote.
copy+paste the trial system and instead make it an elo system where voters vote on if players do well
plus, endgames can be similar to each other. so new system can just reuse previous games to reduce work
kyuss420 wrote:
cob709 wrote:a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well


also promotes high risk plays, with a big payoff for success and not so much of a punishment for failure. which , in certain circumstances, would lead to sub optimal plays for max elo increase. like, would a vig take a shot with a 80/20 chance of hitting town instead of waiting a day for a 50/50?
also rewards lucky plays that took a random click to pull off cos theres no way to tell between a lucky click and a purpose click.... like a vig shooting n2, with 2-3 town claims as info.

so whats the difference between a ''well played'' game vs a won game that wasnt well played?
How would that work for medium?
a lot of that would depend on your role, which in turn, total ELO would depend on how many times you got a powerful role in the season, which is purely RNG

luck is a skill
and it's not completely luck based either.
in the case of a vigilante, they can read through chat to determine who to shoot. same goes for every other role
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Colorbolt » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:46 pm

cob709 wrote:
Flavorable wrote:
cob709 wrote:a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well


There is no way to decide what playing well means in a text based game unless you have a full team of experts reading through every single game, and that isn't happening.

don't need experts. just need some forum-level intelligent people to look through it and vote.
copy+paste the trial system and instead make it an elo system where voters vote on if players do well
plus, endgames can be similar to each other. so new system can just reuse previous games to reduce work

"This guy is my friend so I'm gonna give him a lot of elo even though he played like trash".

Yeah, it sure will be a great system.

Unless you plan to implement the same 9-votes system, which would be an equally terrible idea as no one ever wants to wait 10+ days to get their elo for a game.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Cavespider17 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:04 pm

I agree that elo distribution can be quite awkward at times. In many cases the Witch is left out to dry, same as Executioner. In higher ranked games winning as either or, in particular Executioner is incredibly difficult. This isn't because the Executioner is bad, but the towns tend to be incredibly active making it just naturally harder to succeed with.

When Exes do win, they get very little elo/

Basically, Neutral Evil's (Except Jester) elo feels a little less than fairly distributed.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby cob709 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:56 pm

Colorbolt wrote:
cob709 wrote:
Flavorable wrote:
cob709 wrote:a more simple elo rework is to just award players elo based on whether or not they played well


There is no way to decide what playing well means in a text based game unless you have a full team of experts reading through every single game, and that isn't happening.

don't need experts. just need some forum-level intelligent people to look through it and vote.
copy+paste the trial system and instead make it an elo system where voters vote on if players do well
plus, endgames can be similar to each other. so new system can just reuse previous games to reduce work

"This guy is my friend so I'm gonna give him a lot of elo even though he played like trash".

Yeah, it sure will be a great system.

Unless you plan to implement the same 9-votes system, which would be an equally terrible idea as no one ever wants to wait 10+ days to get their elo for a game.

it would be integrated with the current system so they dont have to wait
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:23 pm

Having actual people view each ranked game seems impractical and easy to corrupt. Also, I'd rather have that people voting on reports than scoring people for their performance, especially in a game like this where good plays are subjective.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby superdog551 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:15 pm

cob709 wrote:don't need experts. just need some forum-level intelligent people to look through it and vote.
copy+paste the trial system and instead make it an elo system where voters vote on if players do well
plus, endgames can be similar to each other. so new system can just reuse previous games to reduce work


There would be way too many games and way too many players to grade for this method to ever be viable. Trial system deals with one person at a time and can be done quickly because most people are reported due to a single message or action. This would require each "judge" to check through 15 people per game, and grade everything they do for that entire game, for every ranked game played. Elo should just be reworked like Alex is suggesting rather than taking on such a drastic change
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby cob709 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:20 pm

superdog551 wrote:
cob709 wrote:don't need experts. just need some forum-level intelligent people to look through it and vote.
copy+paste the trial system and instead make it an elo system where voters vote on if players do well
plus, endgames can be similar to each other. so new system can just reuse previous games to reduce work


There would be way too many games and way too many players to grade for this method to ever be viable. Trial system deals with one person at a time and can be done quickly because most people are reported due to a single message or action. This would require each "judge" to check through 15 people per game, and grade everything they do for that entire game, for every ranked game played. Elo should just be reworked like Alex is suggesting rather than taking on such a drastic change


seems too complicated
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby James2 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:06 pm

In my view, the priorities with elo should be in the following order:

1. The combined elo of the playerbase should not change over time.
2. Players should not be rewarded or penalized for things other than winning and losing.
3. Each player entering a game should (prior to the rand) have no expected elo gain or loss. To the extent that some expected gain/loss is inevitable, it's preferable for a game's higher elo players to have a small expected loss and the lower elo players to have a small expected gain.
4. The elo difference between a win and a loss (for a given player) should be the same regardless of what role the player gets.
5. After the rand (but before any gameplay has occurred), each player should ideally have no expected elo gain/loss (or the same expected gain/loss as before the rand). This is the least important criterion, as it's only of psychological value. Errors in expected winrate only add random noise, which will balance out in the long term.

The best solution, in my view, would be to have the game calculate the total elo gained or lost by each faction (town, mafia, witch, exe/jester) each day, and debit or credit each person who played as that faction that day. This would keep the total amount of elo constant without prioritizing some roles over others or encouraging people to go out of their way to deny wins to others.

I agree that placement games should be abolished or should be redefined as games occurring within a certain period of time.

Correctly parameterizing win probabilities in a non-trivial way would require a human to view detailed statistics about Ranked game outcomes. I don't think a computer could do it autonomously without overfitting.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby cob709 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:52 pm

Actually, each role should be rewarded/penalized for each action they make. Something similar to what this user suggested.
For example:
Spoiler: (As Town): Voting guilty on another town player [-2 elo penalty]
(As Town): Voting innocent on a mafia player [-2 elo penalty]
(As Mafia): Tricking the town into lynching another member of the town [+2 elo reward]
(As vigilante): Shoot a mafia member [+4 elo reward]
(As vigilante): Shoot a town member [-4 elo penalty]
etc.

Someone brought up that it would incentivize individual plays instead of team plays. However, this can be counteracted by only applying rewards when a player wins and only applying penalties when a player loses.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:58 am

I understand how making the elo system mean anything is important. This game can be pretty unfair at times, which is why I'd like to see better rewards for better players, or at least lesser penalties for less relevant roles (so jailors gain more elo for winning and lose more for losing, while mediums have a lesser k factor). I know that this would make rising up in elo luck-based, but I still think it's fairer.

Although I guess that with this rework, town losses in elo hell (which is what I think prompted the "merit" suggestions) wouldn't matter that much since players would lose less elo due to town having a lower winrate, right?

Since I'm not an expert in statistics, I have a question. In order to keep elo constant, you'll have to take elo from the mafia and witch every time town wins and distribute it among the townies. Doesn't this mean that evils will always lose more elo and gain more elo while town games are less impactful, regardless of the outcome?

And also, if grinding is impossible, shouldn't elo tiers be closer to each other?
Last edited by Joacgroso on Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Superalex11 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:49 am

Joacgroso wrote:Since I'm not an expert in statistics, I have a question. In order to keep elo constant, you'll have to take elo from the mafia and witch every time town wins and distribute it among the townies. Doesn't this mean that evils will always lose more elo and gain more elo while town games are less impactful. regardless of the outcome?

Yes, but important to keep note of is that the most impactful qualifier here is the goal of keeping elo constant (i.e. zero elo inflation). To ensure 0 inflation, total elo points gained (in the population) must equal total elo points lost (in the population). For a given game, this means that if you sum the elo changes of all 15 players, it should equal 0.
Thus, for any scenario where a majority of players receiving a position elo change, the minority of players must receive a negative elo change with larger magnitude. Technically this could mean only one of those minority-players receives the bulk of the loss, and the remainder all receive a loss of equal magnitude to a majority-player gain, but the point is that the sum must be 0.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby James2 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:56 am

cob709 wrote:Someone brought up that it would incentivize individual plays instead of team plays. However, this can be counteracted by only applying rewards when a player wins and only applying penalties when a player loses.

This doesn't remove the perverse incentives, as people who act in a way that hurts their faction (but is rewarded) will still win sometimes, and people who act in a way that helps their faction (but is penalized) will still lose sometimes.
Joacgroso wrote:Since I'm not an expert in statistics, I have a question. In order to keep elo constant, you'll have to take elo from the mafia and witch every time town wins and distribute it among the townies. Doesn't this mean that evils will always lose more elo and gain more elo while town games are less impactful. regardless of the outcome?

This will be the case if each game is elo neutral. Which is why I proposed regularly cancelling out faction elo gains/losses (say, every day) rather than making each game non-inflationary/deflationary.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Superalex11 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:05 am

James2 wrote:people who act in a way that hurts their faction (but is rewarded) will still win sometimes, and people who act in a way that helps their faction (but is penalized) will still lose sometimes.

This is still true in the current system.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby James2 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:15 am

Yes, but the current system only rewards/penalizes people for winning and losing. Thus there is no question of people being actively rewarded for hurting their faction or actively penalized for helping it.

My point was that cob's solution to my objections in the other thread (applying special rewards/penalties only when the player won/loss) wouldn't remove the perverse incentives inherent in special rewards/penalties.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:23 am

cob709 wrote:Actually, each role should be rewarded/penalized for each action they make. Something similar to what this user suggested.
For example:
Spoiler: (As Town): Voting guilty on another town player [-2 elo penalty]
(As Town): Voting innocent on a mafia player [-2 elo penalty]
(As Mafia): Tricking the town into lynching another member of the town [+2 elo reward]
(As vigilante): Shoot a mafia member [+4 elo reward]
(As vigilante): Shoot a town member [-4 elo penalty]
etc.

Someone brought up that it would incentivize individual plays instead of team plays. However, this can be counteracted by only applying rewards when a player wins and only applying penalties when a player loses.


so what happens when a trans switches a townie with a mafia that the vigi shoots? Trans made a good play, vigi made a good play, vigi loses 4 elo?

and dont get me started on interactions made in coven ranked... vigi gets hung instead of claiming and outing himself while CL is alive and nobody has claimed RBed for 1st 2 days - good play, but everyone loses 2 ELO? Town innos the Medusa because they discovered CL during the trial and want to lynch them instead? - top notch play but -2 elo for everyone

what im really getting at, is theres no way to perfectly balance ''good plays'' and ''bad plays'' because its all dependant on either perspective(reads) or optimisation.

Now if you want to get into OGT (optimal game theory) - making the move that has the highest chance of success over a large number of games - you are going to end up with ELO creep, which is what we have now...But if players are using OGT moves, theyre always going to gain ELO by grinding no matter what the system is. And Masters players seem to work out the OGT moves fairly quickly for any given role list scenarios.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Superalex11 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:41 am

kyuss420 wrote:Now if you want to get into OGT (optimal game theory) - making the move that has the highest chance of success over a large number of games - you are going to end up with ELO creep, which is what we have now...But if players are using OGT moves, theyre always going to gain ELO by grinding no matter what the system is. And Masters players seem to work out the OGT moves fairly quickly for any given role list scenarios.

If the system were fixed to remove elo inflation, this would not be true. As I stated above, all it takes is ensuring elo gain = elo lost for each match.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:50 am

James2 wrote:This will be the case if each game is elo neutral. Which is why I proposed regularly cancelling out faction elo gains/losses (say, every day) rather than making each game non-inflationary/deflationary.


I thought about this, but I prefer the idea of forcing each game to be neutral. If cancel out factional changes at the end of the day, people will experience Elo changes without doing anything. It would be extremely infuriating to find out you made Master Elo only for your Elo to decrease at the end of the day. Players would be rewarded or punished based on the outcome of other games that they have no control over. I know these would balance out in the long run, but the ToS playerbase is small and you'd have to balance minimizing random deviations with keeping Elo up to date.

I agree with the priority list that you previously mentioned although I would order the points 1, 3, 2, 5, 4 in terms of importance. Having a daily correction would slightly violate your second point while preventing the fourth one from being violated. Also, I would argue that Mafia should have a larger K-factor than Town since each Mafia member has a larger influence on who wins the game than each Town member. That's also why Mafia leavers are so much more annoying than Town leavers.
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Re: Elo Rework

Postby Superalex11 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:56 am

Also, because I was curious, I've just gone through the elo calculation algorithm from the wiki (+ OP's assumption for WR modifier) and thrown together a dirty spreadsheet to allow simple calculations. Shown this way it becomes incredibly evident why there's elo inflation:
Image
In this simple example I give all players the same elo, nobody's in placements, and only town wins. The expected team WR's are approximate and taken from (clean, non-guilty) report data. It's old and imprecise, but good enough for this demonstration. Here we can see that in even this massively simple base case, the result is a net 33 elo added to the population.

Going further, we can stir the pot with more parameters:
Image
That's 80 elo points added to the population.

Is the problem clear now?
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