Devs don't read the forums, but Random Town in Classic...

[SilverCruz]

should be removed and replaced with a new "Random Classic" that can only be a Sheriff, Lookout, Investigator, Doctor, Escort, Medium, Vigilante, or Veteran (if Town Killing is not a Veteran anyway). It's kind of lame when the claim space gets completely blown out by there being a non-Classic role.

[kyuss420]

so now youre complaining that the beginner mode is too easy for seasoned players?

ok dude

the first problem is, you are playing classic......

[SilverCruz]

But Un/ranked doesn't have a Neutral Killing so it gets a little dry after a while, and makes for boring Executioner post-games since the only way to get a standoff where your vote is the Kingmaker and you can make the remaining players jump through hoops to try to get it is to get a Jailor with no executions or an Escort versus the Godfather/Mafioso, and that uh, never happens because the Mafia wants the Jailor dead immediately since the executions aren't as damaging as the deadlock.

[OBeauPeep]

That's basically every town role, though. Does not seem like it would actually change all that much.

[shapesifter13]

We do read the forums. We just don't reply to everything, because that would end up being multiple full time jobs, but random town in classic won't roll any coven roles, because classic doesn't have coven roles, so its already random classic.

[alex1234321]

I don't have an issue with non-guaranteed roles rolling in RT. If anything, it teaches new players how to do PoE. The RT also helps new players learn those roles without it being overwhelming.

[SilverCruz]

We do read the forums. We just don't reply to everything, because that would end up being multiple full time jobs, but random town in classic won't roll any coven roles, because classic doesn't have coven roles, so its already random classic.

You misread. I meant "Classic" as in "roles that can appear in Classic outside of the Random Town role."

You're also awful quiet about direct complaints.

[EqsyLootz]

They meant to remove the following roles from RT: Spy, Bodyguard, Retributionist, Transporter, Mayor. From rolling in RT.

[SilverCruz]

That is correct. One of those ruins the Evils' already narrow claim space outside of Veteran and Vigilante, which are really troublesome claims because if there is a dead Spy or revealed Mayor and there is a real Vigilante who's paying the slightest bit of attention, you will get shot. It's true that Classic is stacked for the Town on purpose, but c'mon man.

Another nicety would be for there to be more "normal" fixed role lists, and maybe to be able to queue for different role lists. Like if an old Ranked role list were added as a fixed role list, being able to pick it, Unranked (which it should be called instead of Ranked Practice because I just don't play Ranked, I'm not "practicing" for it), and Classic, then you just sit in a queue and get dumped into an existing lobby when there are 14 other players (or 15 - the amount of people in your party) for it so that you can slightly randomize where you end up, this as well mitigating the problem of "can't find a match because there are too many modes.".

[DiamondRanger8]

I agree that Classic should be changed, since it's way to Town sided and I don't think it helps newcomers get the grasp of Serial Killer or Mafia, this way it kind of eh. I think Classic should be changed to the old ranked list with Neutral Killing, except maybe NK is replaced with SK, the Random Mafias are replaced by Mafia Deception and Mafia Support, Jailor is replaced with Mayor, Town Killing is replaced with Veteran, one TI would be changed to Sheriff, the other would be changed to Lookout, Town Protective would be changed to Doctor, and Neutral Evil could be changed to either Exe or Jester

This would be the final product

Mayor
Sheriff
Lookout
Doctor
Town Killing
Town Support
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Serial Killer
Jester/Executioner

[Soulshade55r]

I agree that Classic should be changed, since it's way to Town sided and I don't think it helps newcomers get the grasp of Serial Killer or Mafia, this way it kind of eh. I think Classic should be changed to the old ranked list with Neutral Killing, except maybe NK is replaced with SK, the Random Mafias are replaced by Mafia Deception and Mafia Support, Jailor is replaced with Mayor, Town Killing is replaced with Veteran, one TI would be changed to Sheriff, the other would be changed to Lookout, Town Protective would be changed to Doctor, and Neutral Evil could be changed to either Exe or Jester

This would be the final product

Mayor
Sheriff
Lookout
Doctor
Town Killing
Town Support
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Serial Killer
Jester/Executioner

I'd change classic to the first version of ranked with nb and any (ts replaced with RT) So that we can play with all roles in a decent setting

[mdntranger]

I think part of the problem is that classic isn't necessarily there to teach people how to use the roles, but how the game mechanics in general work. I believe that there is purposefully little claim space and easily verifiable interactions to teach people new to TOS how the mechanics all work and how the deductive reasoning is implemented. New people learn how to use the 'special' functions of the characters, how the day/night cycles work, how voting works, etc.. I think you would lose new players if you implement the old RP roles as 'classic' as you would be introducing too much complexity for a new player learning this system.

[Joacgroso]

Yeah, as kyuss420 pointed out, there's no point in putting too much effort into balancing a gamemode for begginers. Most of them don't know how to do process of elimination or how to counterclaim anyway.
The rolelist should be as simple as possible so newcomers can grasp some basic roles. This game has almost 50 roles, and it can be overwhelming at first, especially considering invest results.

I do think we should have an extra gamemode with the old ranked rolelist or something similar, so people who like a bit of neutral slots can play.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Yeah, as kyuss420 pointed out, there's no point in putting too much effort into balancing a gamemode for begginers. Most of them don't know how to do process of elimination or how to counterclaim anyway.
The rolelist should be as simple as possible so newcomers can grasp some basic roles. This game has almost 50 roles, and it can be overwhelming at first, especially considering invest results.

I do think we should have an extra gamemode with the old ranked rolelist or something similar, so people who like a bit of neutral slots can play.

You are alive!

[Joacgroso]

I am, I just usually take breaks from the game and the forums. Hi again.

[SilverCruz]

I mean, yeah, it'd be preferable to just have another list, even if it's just digging up one of the old Ranked lists. Just SOMETHING with a Neutral Killing since Custom is dead so you can't really prop one up in there and expect to get a round going.

[EqsyLootz]

I mean, yeah, it'd be preferable to just have another list, even if it's just digging up one of the old Ranked lists. Just SOMETHING with a Neutral Killing since Custom is dead so you can't really prop one up in there and expect to get a round going.

All Any, Custom, Rainbow, Coven RP, CAA, Coven Custom, Lovers. There's your NK's if you want them. Although - the Coven since you don't play it.

[Joacgroso]

Those lists aren't everything. They are too chaotic. I think it would be nice if the devs added a gamemode that tries to be balanced, even if the inclusion of some roles make it less than 100% balanced.
All any is very luck based, rainbow is dead and also doesn't involve the same kind of gameplay as the normal game, custom isn't even a list and lovers has special rules. A list where neutrals have to beat the town mayority would be cool.

[alex1234321]

Those lists aren't everything. They are too chaotic. I think it would be nice if the devs added a gamemode that tries to be balanced, even if the inclusion of some roles make it less than 100% balanced.
All any is very luck based, rainbow is dead and also doesn't involve the same kind of gameplay as the normal game, custom isn't even a list and lovers has special rules. A list where neutrals have to beat the town mayority would be cool.

After a few months it would probably end up like every other dead mode. I think Custom is salvageable if they changed the repick system (like they’ve been promising for five years) and added more abilities for the host.

[Dragnier]

Now that Classic is being discussed...

I always notice there is a Vampire Hunter role on the wheel. I have never got to be it on Classic, and I'm wondering what happens if the wheel would land on it.
Are you turned into a Vigi automatically because there won't be any vampires on Classic?
Or maybe it opens the possibility of a game with 3 potential TKs? (Normal TK, a random town who turns to be TK, and VH turned into vigi)

Maybe it would be a good idea to remove the VH from the wheel and replace it with a regular Vigilante, or maybe make it a Random Town role.

[SilverCruz]

The wheel is rigged and the roles are chosen before it's spun. Vampire Hunter only appears on it because of the Town Killing and Random Town slots, but in practice it will never actually land on Vampire Hunter in Classic since there can never be a Vampire.

[Dragnier]

Rigged or not, I see little point in showing an unobtainable role on the wheel.

[SilverCruz]

It's not that there's a point to it, it's that the wheel was probably coded to always show Vigilante, Veteran, and Vampire Hunter if a Town Killing bracket is present in the list (and every town role if Random Town is present, for that matter), but not to specifically exclude Vampire Hunter if there's no Vampire, Neutral Any, or Any in the role list.

[Joacgroso]

Those lists aren't everything. They are too chaotic. I think it would be nice if the devs added a gamemode that tries to be balanced, even if the inclusion of some roles make it less than 100% balanced.
All any is very luck based, rainbow is dead and also doesn't involve the same kind of gameplay as the normal game, custom isn't even a list and lovers has special rules. A list where neutrals have to beat the town mayority would be cool.

After a few months it would probably end up like every other dead mode. I think Custom is salvageable if they changed the repick system (like they’ve been promising for five years) and added more abilities for the host.

I would love to see a better custom mode, preferably with private lobbies (check my signature), but at this point I don't know if that's ever going to happen. A simple rolelist would be a lot easier to add.
I'm not even sure if the list would die so easily. There are many people who like neutrals. The reason why rainbow, vigilantics and DP died may be that they barely had any variability. A rolelist that is similar to the old ranked one would have more different games. Now that there's no pseudo-fair rolelist for playing as jester/NB/NK, the gamemode might last.

[SilverCruz]

And adding the ability to queue for multiple lists would be super helpful too. Like you pick Ranked V3 (the Neutral Evil/Neutral Killing one), Unranked (not calling it what the game calls it), and let's say Dracula's Palace, then wait 'til the game pushes you into a lobby for one of them. That way you can match into different lists at the same time, helping with the problem of the playerbase being a little thinly spread (as much as is possible without gutting the already spartan monetization, anyway).