Witch and Executioner in Ranked

[12sithlord56]

Although I have been enjoying this seasons ranked list, one of my biggest issues is with the NE faction, both witch and executioner.

Although Witch is one of my favorite ranked roles, and in my opinion has one of the most unique skill sets that are conducive to high-level play, I often feel a sense of dismay when I roll witch.
This is because no matter how well I play with witch I often lose the game regardless. I have played games where I witch the vigi into a townie night one, and then save a mafia from being executed night two, only to be executed by jailor night three and watch my evil teammates go on to win the game as a result of my actions, while I lose, despite having carried them due to the carry potential as a witch.
Not only does the mafia have to win, but you have to be alive at the end, which means that more than half the witch games I've played, I've lost when the mafia has won. This is not even to mention that towns will spite kill/exe witch because they know that they can make the entire faction lose that way.
I just think generally having the most powerful faction role not win if the faction they are meant to carry wins is a poor decision that makes gameplay frustrating.
I think that Holly's video which I'll link below shows pretty well how this can be frustrating and make it disappointing to role witch despite the fun skill set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWt88jg7q7k&t=767s
One idea would be to have witch win with mafia even while dead, which would allow for a more aggro play style and more fun when rolling witch. I don't think this would hurt the game, just make Witch, a very high skill ceiling role, a little more forgiving.
Another idea would be at the very least to adjust the elo amounts. Currently it is very unrewarding that in masters a witch win will give only +3 elo, which means for all the struggle I described of winning as witch, there is relatively low gain in terms of ELO. At the very least adjusting the elo that is awarded would make it a high risk high reward role, rather than the current high-risk, low reward dynamics.

When it comes to executioner my biggest gripe is not with the role but with the elo awarded. For some reason, jester wins give +9 elo in masters which is the highest by a huge margin of any single role's win. At the same time, executioner gets only +3. As a result, competitive ranked players are encouraged to FAIL their primary objective, of lynching their target, in order to gain the most elo. Because of this new metas, like exes siding town or exe whispering their target to mafia day 1 and then getting a jester win have become popular and it makes the game feel unhealthy and frustrating. Simply equalizing the elo from exe and jest would solve this issue in an instant, and I don't understand why there was such a huge disparity in the first place.

Idk if this will ever get read but that was my rant ab witch and exe in ranked xo
-- Agent September

[Dragnier]

This reminds me of the Mafia / SK struggle. If you are SK, and you don't kill mafia, they will lynch you at the end and you will lose. But if you kill mafia too quickly, evils will lose ground, which increases your chances of losing too. Finding the balance on when is the best time for killing mafia is key so you can survive until the end.
For Witch is the same, if you are too efficient you risk being captured early, and you will lose while your allies might win, as you commented. Maybe a little more caution could work for witch during the first nights, but I don't agree on granting the victory if her allies won and she died. As Witch can ally with any non-town, a witch could be helping the exe to win, and it will be unfair to grant her the victory just because mafia won at the end.

I think a higher elo award for those roles is not a bad idea. You don't have teammates to rely on, or that could carry you to a victory.

[FalinesGamingCave]

I agree with most things being said here, especially the trouble with ELO gain from Witch and Executioner wins. I've however seen Witch wins giving quite a lot of ELO too, but that's due to a huge difference in ELO of the players. That being said, especially Witch requires lots of skills to be played well and that should be rewarded.

What I don't agree with is Witch being able to win with mafia for a simple reason: This will make Witch one of the highest killing priorities for all other Neutral Killing roles, vampires, etc. in other modes, which will throw off the balance imo. Witches are Neutral Evils for a reason, they are supposed to keep the game random and unpredictable. It would be nice in Ranked sure, but let's not forget other modes here.

Also, assuming Witches win with Mafia, where is the difference to Coven, except that Witch is a nerfed team member who can't see Mafia chat? To sum up where this is going: Who would buy Coven if you could have this in the regular game already?

I like how you brought this discussion up however

And last, a question for you: Do you see any other possibilities that would support the Witch in Ranked without destroying the balance of other game modes?

I was just thinking about giving Witch a one time execution immunity, which would probably be easier to implement (considering it already exists for Pest) and still allow Witch to side whoever they like. Also, that should be enough to allow the Witch to win more games as I think it's usually only one single night that makes the difference between a Witch winning and losing. In exchange for that however, Witches should lose their night immunity though or be nerfed in another aspect to avoid overpowering Witch.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Solution: make with able to win while dead

Remove its detection inmunity

Make the shield only apply to scum attacks

[SilverCruz]

They should be replaced, one with a Neutral bracket that's all the Benigns and Evils, and one that's all the Neutrals except Chaos.

They're too predictable when you know they'll be there EVERY TIME.

[OreCreeper]

I agree with most things being said here, especially the trouble with ELO gain from Witch and Executioner wins. I've however seen Witch wins giving quite a lot of ELO too, but that's due to a huge difference in ELO of the players. That being said, especially Witch requires lots of skills to be played well and that should be rewarded.

What I don't agree with is Witch being able to win with mafia for a simple reason: This will make Witch one of the highest killing priorities for all other Neutral Killing roles, vampires, etc. in other modes, which will throw off the balance imo. Witches are Neutral Evils for a reason, they are supposed to keep the game random and unpredictable. It would be nice in Ranked sure, but let's not forget other modes here.

Also, assuming Witches win with Mafia, where is the difference to Coven, except that Witch is a nerfed team member who can't see Mafia chat? To sum up where this is going: Who would buy Coven if you could have this in the regular game already?

I like how you brought this discussion up however

And last, a question for you: Do you see any other possibilities that would support the Witch in Ranked without destroying the balance of other game modes?

I was just thinking about giving Witch a one time execution immunity, which would probably be easier to implement (considering it already exists for Pest) and still allow Witch to side whoever they like. Also, that should be enough to allow the Witch to win more games as I think it's usually only one single night that makes the difference between a Witch winning and losing. In exchange for that however, Witches should lose their night immunity though or be nerfed in another aspect to avoid overpowering Witch.

That sounds... not that good. Giving witch immunity to execution, even if it’s only one-time, is too overpowered. Town loses majority way too easily in S5, so in a lot of games town needs TKs to clutch the game. If witch got jailor immunity, the role would become basically invincible once town loses majority, and witch finding jailor would be an insta-loss for town. Jailor would not only have to find witch, but they would also have to execute the witch twice, all without having evils gain majority.

I suggest that the witch should not be changed, but instead have witch wins grant the maximum elo (30 in silver and 15 in masters). After all, it is a pretty challenging role even if evils are all gods and town is full of classic noobs.

Also, I’m not certain but I’m pretty sure the reason why jester gives more elo than exe is because jester “wins less” due to it spawning in less games than exes. To be honest though, winning as jest is probably a bit easier than winning as exe, but both are usually free wins. I do support that jest/exe should grant the same amount of elo, though.

Also, I made a witch guide here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=115176&p=3577269#p3577269

[kyuss420]

Meanwhile in All Any, Witch dies to vet night 1 and wins cos town lost.....

[Yemac]

Solution: make with able to win while dead

Remove its detection inmunity

Make the shield only apply to scum attacks

I like this. Maybe even remove the shield all-together if witch can win with any evil. This way a witch siding with mafia can be killed by the SK. It balances out All Any

[OreCreeper]

Solution: make with able to win while dead

Remove its detection inmunity

Make the shield only apply to scum attacks

I like this. Maybe even remove the shield all-together if witch can win with any evil. This way a witch siding with mafia can be killed by the SK. It balances out All Any

Yeah but if the witch chooses to side with mafia and then gets killed by SK, and then in the end the SK wins, it would be super unfair to the SK to have the witch still win with them. I would be pretty mad if I was the SK in that situation.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Solution: make with able to win while dead

Remove its detection inmunity

Make the shield only apply to scum attacks

I like this. Maybe even remove the shield all-together if witch can win with any evil. This way a witch siding with mafia can be killed by the SK. It balances out All Any

Yeah but if the witch chooses to side with mafia and then gets killed by SK, and then in the end the SK wins, it would be super unfair to the SK to have the witch still win with them. I would be pretty mad if I was the SK in that situation.

You are right while I think winning while dead, I forget that rainbow and all any exist

[12sithlord56]

This post is about witch and exe in ranked. I don't play other modes regularly so I can't speak to dynamics between evil factions. They could consider balancing witch differently in ranked or just apply the elo changes to keep it the same in other modes, but my main concern is how it plays in ranked.

Even if witch win conditions, adjusting elo for these 1 person factions is a quick fix that could help the ranked scene while it is discussed.

I don't think that giving jail immunity is smart, as I said witch is very powerful, doesn't need a buff, yet remains very hard to win with. A player told me the other day that their witch win rate was 25% which is about half the average win rate.

As far as exe goes, I think it would also be cool if they gained aditional elo for winning with evils to stop the ridiculously frustrating Day 1 "im exe my target is 4, im going to be winning with town" which makes the games a 10v5 rather than a 9v6 as it was intended.

[Yemac]

No one plays Rainbow anyways lol. And All any is chaotic enough. Most witches die to arso or hanging in All Any. Yes they can win more easily, but no one ever stays in all any when they die, and what's wrong with an easier role? All Any isn't supposed to be balanced.

You could make witch side with an evil faction to "balance" it. And it auto-chooses maf in Ranked.

Witch just needs to lose their immunity. It's also broken in ranked that when you mislynch on d2 you just auto-lose the game if witch has a brain.

[kyuss420]

No one plays Rainbow anyways lol. And All any is chaotic enough. Most witches die to arso or hanging in All Any. Yes they can win more easily, but no one ever stays in all any when they die, and what's wrong with an easier role? All Any isn't supposed to be balanced.

You could make witch side with an evil faction to "balance" it. And it auto-chooses maf in Ranked.

Witch just needs to lose their immunity. It's also broken in ranked that when you mislynch on d2 you just auto-lose the game if witch has a brain.

Lots of modes are auto lose if certain roles have a brain.... thats the whole basis of ToS