Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

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Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby minhthuann » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:08 am

I was playing (Classic) AA and rolled spy. When N1 ended without any maf visits, I assumed they were either rb'd or afk. But this lack of maf visits continued throughout the game, until I was ignited by an arso and died. I didn't manage to get a screenshot, but there were zero maf roles in the after-game lobby.

The spy's main ability is to see maf/coven visits. Without them, it's just a sitting duck on town's side to be killed. But spy can use bugs, you might say. Let's not kid ourselves here: bugging, on its own, rarely provides enough info (or even any at all) to sustain a whole TI role.

So for the sake of all spies in AA, only make it spawn if there's maf and/or coven to keep track of.

(Coding-wise, I think it would work the same way as how VH only spawns with vamps, so this shouldn't be too much of a challenge)
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:52 am

Spy's bugging ability means it technically doesn't rely on mafia/coven to be useful, although the ability is not that good. But honestly, spy needs a rework anyway.
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:23 am

Less than 1% of All Any games do not have Mafia, so I don’t think this change is necessary. Also you could have helped the Town realize that there are no Mafia so that they could focus on NK/Vamps. But I agree that Spy needs a much larger rework.
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby RiceHatMan » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:01 am

Hagg1s wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Less than 1% of All Any games do not have Mafia


Source?

More like math. They probably meant figuratively, though, cause it's already quite rare to have less than 3 Mafia in All any.
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:11 pm

Harryyoshi wrote:
Hagg1s wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Less than 1% of All Any games do not have Mafia


Source?

More like math. They probably meant figuratively, though, cause it's already quite rare to have less than 3 Mafia in All any.


Coven All Any balances out these odds and it's much less likely to have a full Mafia in that.

Also it's rare-ish for a full Coven to spawn too.

You could also play a CAA game in which your teammate Janitor leaves N1, leaving you solo against a full Coven, but you somehow get away with a spy claim, get witched, have a LO on you since you called TPLO, and lynch/shoot every coven member in a row, while the Jailor mis-exe's a Psychic, almost getting you the win, but then you get jailed and it's all over against the LO and Jailor.

Even then, Spy without Mafia/Coven means it's insta-confirm there are groupscum if Spy does appear.

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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:33 pm

Hagg1s wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Less than 1% of All Any games do not have Mafia


Source?


I made this post about it in 2016. Now there are two more Mafia roles so 0 Mafia is even rarer. That post didn’t incorporate unique roles or vh requiring vamps but the math wouldn’t be substantially different and the probability would be even lower since vh is one less possible Town role in non-Vamp games.

Edit: I did a Monte Carlo simulation of one million All Any games that incorporated both vh and unique roles. Only 0.2% of the games had zero Mafia.
Last edited by alex1234321 on Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:57 pm

Honestly tho spy needs to be reworked in general
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby CapWarrior2 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:43 pm

It's All Any. Not that important and as other people are saying spy needs rework anyway
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby CapWarrior2 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:15 pm

Hagg1s wrote:
CapWarrior2 wrote:It's All Any. Not that important and as other people are saying spy needs rework anyway


imagine thinking ranked is important


It's important because it needs to be the most balanced role list, unlike all any.
I'm pretty sure you are joking but just incase your not I explained it.
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:19 am

imagine thinking spy needs a rework when sheriff exists
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:54 am

kyuss420 wrote:imagine thinking spy needs a rework when sheriff exists


Sheriff is fine, and spy needs a rework because passive abilities in general suck
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby minhthuann » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:34 am

CapWarrior2 wrote:It's All Any. Not that important and as other people are saying spy needs rework anyway


Never said it was a high-priority suggestion, just a suggestion. Sure, balance is not as pressing of an issue in chaos modes, but there are still limits (e.g with unique roles) in place, so I wouldn't dismiss this entirely.

Ideally, spy would be reworked to both be less dependent on mafia/coven and less detrimental to those factions, but that's a discussion better suited for another place (read: not on this post)
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Re: Make Spy unable to spawn without Mafia and/or Coven

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:31 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:imagine thinking spy needs a rework when sheriff exists


Sheriff is fine, and spy needs a rework because passive abilities in general suck



alphabet soup also sucks, your name needs a rework (or are you too passive?)
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