TT countdown needs to be removed

[OreCreeper]

This is a surprisingly unfrequently talked-about topic, considering how much of a horrible idea this was and turned out to be. The TT countdown was meant to prevent games from lasting forever with only the TT alive, but this was hardly the best method of doing that. If mafia goes for the timer, it goes in a completely different direction than the normal way to win and encourages the mafia and witch to gamethrow. If all the mafia and witch all quit the game d1, mafia has a higher winning chance than if they stay and actually try but die off slowly. It also encourages town to throw by intentionally mass-killing townies to weed out the traitor. The timer is also automatic, which means that all the TT has to do is not get lynched for 3 days after all the other evils die to win. I propose that instead of the timer, the TT would get an ability like the SK cautious ability to choose to perform the mafia kill instead of their normal ability. This way, the mafia and witch would be discouraged from gamethrowing and outing themselves so the TT could win, and it also punishes mafia for playing badly instead of rewarding them with an easy win via the timer. It also gets rid of a lot of shitty strategies like the veticide strat, since those now harm town's chances of winning like they should. It would also discourage chain jailing (I know that this might still happen, but it would be a far less viable strat). It would also make it so that witch doesn't end up hurting mafia as much since the TT getting to perform the mafia kill would not be impacted by the witch's presence.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I 100% agree with this, when only TT is alive, the next 3 lynches, executions and shoots are 90% random which is terrible

[Ezradekezra]

It doesn't count as a win for you if you leave while alive though

[Brilliand]

Welp, here it is. The devs ignored the early, mild recommendations for how to fix the TT countdown, and now some frustrated forumgoer has decided to "yell louder" by proposing a ridiculously extreme change to get rid of the current problems with the TT countdown.

But this super-extreme change isn't actually the best solution; it's just a way to be super attention-grabbing about the fact that the current TT countdown has problems. For the record, a better version of the TT countdown was proposed before the current version of the TT countdown was even decided on:

The doomsday clock could go "after X players have died [regardless of faction], the Town has Y days to lynch the Traitor, or evils automatically win". 8 and 3 seem like reasonable values for X and Y to me, but I'm just spitballing here.

(From Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill)

Note that this has none of the problems listed in the first post of this "needs to be removed" thread. (Unfortunately I wasn't able to foresee most of these specific problems at the time; I only had the chainjailing problem and a nagging suspicion that there might be more, so I backed down in the ensuing discussion.)

Unfortunately, considering the reasoning that Achilles gave for implementing the TT countdown in the first place, and the fact that BMG did nothing in response to the milder complaints that appeared almost immediately... I doubt that BMG will be willing to revisit the TT countdown anytime soon, no matter what we propose as a solution.

[Soulshade55r]

This is a surprisingly unfrequently talked-about topic, considering how much of a horrible idea this was and turned out to be. The TT countdown was meant to prevent games from lasting forever with only the TT alive, but this was hardly the best method of doing that. If mafia goes for the timer, it goes in a completely different direction than the normal way to win and encourages the mafia and witch to gamethrow. If all the mafia and witch all quit the game d1, mafia has a higher winning chance than if they stay and actually try but die off slowly. It also encourages town to throw by intentionally mass-killing townies to weed out the traitor. The timer is also automatic, which means that all the TT has to do is not get lynched for 3 days after all the other evils die to win. I propose that instead of the timer, the TT would get an ability like the SK cautious ability to choose to perform the mafia kill instead of their normal ability. This way, the mafia and witch would be discouraged from gamethrowing and outing themselves so the TT could win, and it also punishes mafia for playing badly instead of rewarding them with an easy win via the timer. It also gets rid of a lot of shitty strategies like the veticide strat, since those now harm town's chances of winning like they should. It would also discourage chain jailing (I know that this might still happen, but it would be a far less viable strat). It would also make it so that witch doesn't end up hurting mafia as much since the TT getting to perform the mafia kill would not be impacted by the witch's presence.

.
This would also prevent the need for mafioso which in all honesty is a good thing.

I feel like Mafia really need factional kills instead of the current system and this could be given to the TT.

For coven the traitor could be given necronomicon which gives them the factional kill button which is lowest priority

[OreCreeper]

Welp, here it is. The devs ignored the early, mild recommendations for how to fix the TT countdown, and now some frustrated forumgoer has decided to "yell louder" by proposing a ridiculously extreme change to get rid of the current problems with the TT countdown.

But this super-extreme change isn't actually the best solution; it's just a way to be super attention-grabbing about the fact that the current TT countdown has problems. For the record, a better version of the TT countdown was proposed before the current version of the TT countdown was even decided on:

The doomsday clock could go "after X players have died [regardless of faction], the Town has Y days to lynch the Traitor, or evils automatically win". 8 and 3 seem like reasonable values for X and Y to me, but I'm just spitballing here.

(From Lone Town Traitor needs to be able to kill)

Note that this has none of the problems listed in the first post of this "needs to be removed" thread. (Unfortunately I wasn't able to foresee most of these specific problems at the time; I only had the chainjailing problem and a nagging suspicion that there might be more, so I backed down in the ensuing discussion.)

Unfortunately, considering the reasoning that Achilles gave for implementing the TT countdown in the first place, and the fact that BMG did nothing in response to the milder complaints that appeared almost immediately... I doubt that BMG will be willing to revisit the TT countdown anytime soon, no matter what we propose as a solution.

Your suggestion sort of prevents chainjailing doesn't really solve any of the other problems because it doesn't really fix the problems of encouraging town to gamethrow and get as many townies killed as possible to weed out the TT, and it actually causes more problems since the countdown can start with mafia still alive, which means that the town would have to intentionally lynch townies while maf are still alive to find the TT.

Also, yeah it doesn't feel like the devs are willing to work on the gamemode anymore. At this point ranked seems to be the only gamemode that the devs still care about.

This is a surprisingly unfrequently talked-about topic, considering how much of a horrible idea this was and turned out to be. The TT countdown was meant to prevent games from lasting forever with only the TT alive, but this was hardly the best method of doing that. If mafia goes for the timer, it goes in a completely different direction than the normal way to win and encourages the mafia and witch to gamethrow. If all the mafia and witch all quit the game d1, mafia has a higher winning chance than if they stay and actually try but die off slowly. It also encourages town to throw by intentionally mass-killing townies to weed out the traitor. The timer is also automatic, which means that all the TT has to do is not get lynched for 3 days after all the other evils die to win. I propose that instead of the timer, the TT would get an ability like the SK cautious ability to choose to perform the mafia kill instead of their normal ability. This way, the mafia and witch would be discouraged from gamethrowing and outing themselves so the TT could win, and it also punishes mafia for playing badly instead of rewarding them with an easy win via the timer. It also gets rid of a lot of shitty strategies like the veticide strat, since those now harm town's chances of winning like they should. It would also discourage chain jailing (I know that this might still happen, but it would be a far less viable strat). It would also make it so that witch doesn't end up hurting mafia as much since the TT getting to perform the mafia kill would not be impacted by the witch's presence.

.
This would also prevent the need for mafioso which in all honesty is a good thing.

I feel like Mafia really need factional kills instead of the current system and this could be given to the TT.

For coven the traitor could be given necronomicon which gives them the factional kill button which is lowest priority

Yeah I can get behind this but until the devs feel like actually implementing TMK there needs to be an alternative for the timer since it's literally one of the core factors that ruin the gamemode.

[Brilliand]

Your suggestion sort of prevents chainjailing doesn't really solve any of the other problems because it doesn't really fix the problems of encouraging town to gamethrow and get as many townies killed as possible to weed out the TT, and it actually causes more problems since the countdown can start with mafia still alive, which means that the town would have to intentionally lynch townies while maf are still alive to find the TT.

Would the Town actually lynch townies while maf are still alive to find the TT? I think they wouldn't, precisely because it creates so much risk of Maf simply getting majority. Ergo, problem solved.

Also, yeah it doesn't feel like the devs are willing to work on the gamemode anymore. At this point ranked seems to be the only gamemode that the devs still care about.

I'm sure after a while they'll get tired of working on Ranked and move on to another gamemode. (Possibly Custom.)

[Kelisidina]

/support

However, I do think TT should be able to be buffed after all mafs/coven are dead.

[kyuss420]

The mode kinda sucked on the PTR when they had no timer, days would pass with no lynches/kills, every match was 10-15 days long. People suicided to vet to stop the draw counter if town still didnt lynch (how do you think that ''strat'' started?)

Then towns started to lynch jailors/mayors/vigis first, cos theyd be the most dangerous traitors

I mean, if noobs cant decide in 1 day phase who to lynch, they wont decide in 3 day phases..... so even if traitor got to kill, he would have a better chance of winning by not killing anyone at all...

Also if traitors got to kill, they would be super easy to find.... BGs could kill them, a doc healing someone would confirm 2 non traitors, a jailor jailing someone would be confirmed town (or would traitor jailor get to jail someone AND perform a kill), trackers/LOs can catch them......non visiting roles will now visit (mayor/medium/ret/psy) so trackers would be camping on them until theres a kill.

[DiamondRanger8]

What's frustrating is that TT has been around for at least 6 months (I can't really remember how long exactly), and no change has been made to fix the jail/roleblock meta against the Mafia/Coven, along with the 4 Mafia, 1 Witch solution to add Witch to Mafia chat or to remove Witch with another Mafia member.

[kyuss420]

Maybe they can just remove the traitor, gg EZ

[CapWarrior2]

Maybe they can just remove the traitor, gg EZ

Yes really fair 4v11, gg EZ (Obviously for mafia)

[OreCreeper]

The mode kinda sucked on the PTR when they had no timer, days would pass with no lynches/kills, every match was 10-15 days long. People suicided to vet to stop the draw counter if town still didnt lynch (how do you think that ''strat'' started?)

Then towns started to lynch jailors/mayors/vigis first, cos theyd be the most dangerous traitors

I mean, if noobs cant decide in 1 day phase who to lynch, they wont decide in 3 day phases..... so even if traitor got to kill, he would have a better chance of winning by not killing anyone at all...

Also if traitors got to kill, they would be super easy to find.... BGs could kill them, a doc healing someone would confirm 2 non traitors, a jailor jailing someone would be confirmed town (or would traitor jailor get to jail someone AND perform a kill), trackers/LOs can catch them......non visiting roles will now visit (mayor/medium/ret/psy) so trackers would be camping on them until theres a kill.

Yeah, but the traitor can choose to not kill and perform their regular ability. It makes playing traitor actually skill-based instead of luck-based (not getting random lynched, since random lynching/shooting/executing is literally the current meta to combat the timer). The TT has to actually be careful and worry about what any other mafia killing has to worry about but they can hide themselves much easier. You have to avoid TP targets, or you can just get the TPs killed, or convince town that they're the TT. If TP is TT, they can fake a self-protection to look more legit (since spy doesn't see the TT's visit). And yes, TT jailors can still attack while they jail someone (although they can't execute if they do so). Trackers can't possibly camp on all non-visiting roles at the same time. Besides, if medium is the TT, they can just kill the tracker and lie about their will. It's not as bad as you think, since normal process of elimination strats aren't as effective since the TT is effectively another town member.

[kyuss420]

i dont think you understand the non timer meta....

step 1: confirm 2 townies
step 2: protect them, kill everyone else (power roles first)

What youre proposing will take coding on every current role that i doubt the devs would be bothered even considering, for the sake of1 game mode.

Tactical mafia kills dont exist....convince the devs to do that first, then MAYBE traitor will be able to kill and the timer can be removed.

First things first bruh.... jumping the gun and removing the timer before tactical mafia kills are coded, will lead to a worse meta than what exists now and ridiculously long and boring matches where no one is lynched until ''If no one is dead by tommorow, the game ends in a draw''

Now, your rules for non visiting traitors and jailors using a tactical kill, is another problem for the devs to think through....and realising that this game mode may require extra coding on top of what they have to do for tactical mafia kills, may make them decide to not bother implementing tactical kills at all.

So best case scenario for you is devs to say yes, and then you might see it happen in 6-12 months, while nothing else is worked on....

[OreCreeper]

i dont think you understand the non timer meta....

step 1: confirm 2 townies
step 2: protect them, kill everyone else (power roles first)

What youre proposing will take coding on every current role that i doubt the devs would be bothered even considering, for the sake of1 game mode.

Tactical mafia kills dont exist....convince the devs to do that first, then MAYBE traitor will be able to kill and the timer can be removed.

First things first bruh.... jumping the gun and removing the timer before tactical mafia kills are coded, will lead to a worse meta than what exists now and ridiculously long and boring matches where no one is lynched until ''If no one is dead by tommorow, the game ends in a draw''

Now, your rules for non visiting traitors and jailors using a tactical kill, is another problem for the devs to think through....and realising that this game mode may require extra coding on top of what they have to do for tactical mafia kills, may make them decide to not bother implementing tactical kills at all.

So best case scenario for you is devs to say yes, and then you might see it happen in 6-12 months, while nothing else is worked on....

Since the traitor can kill, they can just kill the confirmed townies first. And besides, it's way better than if it was a mafioso instead of the TT, because at least it's way harder to use POE to catch the TT. The TT should be at a significant disadvantage if they're the last one alive, because that means that mafia played badly and all died off. Also, the devs can just code TMK and add this as an extension, but even if they were to do this separately, it really shouldn't take 6-12 months.

[kyuss420]

i dont think you understand the non timer meta....

step 1: confirm 2 townies
step 2: protect them, kill everyone else (power roles first)

What youre proposing will take coding on every current role that i doubt the devs would be bothered even considering, for the sake of1 game mode.

Tactical mafia kills dont exist....convince the devs to do that first, then MAYBE traitor will be able to kill and the timer can be removed.

First things first bruh.... jumping the gun and removing the timer before tactical mafia kills are coded, will lead to a worse meta than what exists now and ridiculously long and boring matches where no one is lynched until ''If no one is dead by tommorow, the game ends in a draw''

Now, your rules for non visiting traitors and jailors using a tactical kill, is another problem for the devs to think through....and realising that this game mode may require extra coding on top of what they have to do for tactical mafia kills, may make them decide to not bother implementing tactical kills at all.

So best case scenario for you is devs to say yes, and then you might see it happen in 6-12 months, while nothing else is worked on....

Since the traitor can kill, they can just kill the confirmed townies first. And besides, it's way better than if it was a mafioso instead of the TT, because at least it's way harder to use POE to catch the TT. The TT should be at a significant disadvantage if they're the last one alive, because that means that mafia played badly and all died off. Also, the devs can just code TMK and add this as an extension, but even if they were to do this separately, it really shouldn't take 6-12 months.

yes ''kill confirmed townies first'' easier said than done dude, since everyone knows they are being targeted and protecting them at all costs.

As for the devs time frame.... who knows what they have planned before they even table something like that. Maybe they are already 6 months behind on their ''leaver buster'' system or whatever theyre working on besides this..... If being a BMG dev is even their fulltime job..... Seems to me they do this part time, or in their spare time, while their real job takes priority and this is more a ''some extra cash on the side, if we have time'' kind of project

[Ellerslie]

I disagree, since town can also use this to trap last maf while they vote off town one by one, making it too weighty in either direction.

[OreCreeper]

I disagree, since town can also use this to trap last maf while they vote off town one by one, making it too weighty in either direction.

Town can do this currently as well. The timer doesn't start until all mafia + witch die.