Witch Problems

[Kelisidina]

I just had a game as witch where the mafia gave up and basically played horrible. I had a pretty OK fake-claim and was talking to the jailor, all that shit. Wasn't my best game, but I definitely thought I was the smartest evil that round. It's really annoying as a player to rely completely on other people in order to get your win. Witch is one of the only roles in Town of Salem where 99.9% of the time, you have to win with OTHER EVILS being alive.

[Case 1 where witch sucks ass] In ranked [most competitive game mode], if all the mafs are dead and the game still continues on, the town know to just hang the vigilante and they win.
[Case 2 where witch sucks ass] Let's say a town member fake-claimed witch to a bad mafia member, and the maf member outs all their maf to the town. Boom --> town easily hangs all the mafs and the witch immediately loses despite doing nothing wrong.

I could go on and on, but the main issue I have is that witch needs to rely on other evils having some cognition in their brain for a win.

My suggestion is that you should change the win conditions for witch- witches should be able to keep the game going considering they are an evil who CAN'T side with town. If they manage to go into a 1 v 1, I would give the witch the win.

Feel free to give your thoughts and opinions

[Soulshade55r]

Maybe if the witch is the last evil left they get Cls drain? Not really much you can do to give witch

[Kelisidina]

Maybe if the witch is the last evil left they get Cls drain? Not really much you can do to give witch

Interesting. One advantage the witch can have is mislynching people.


Congrats on 1000 posts btw

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Maybe if the witch is the last evil left they get Cls drain? Not really much you can do to give witch

Yeah no, NE shouldnt be able to kill

[RiceHatMan]

Imo, the whole thing about NE needing to be in favour of evils is inherently broken, since roles like Witch just straight up rely on evils to win, while Jester and Executioner don't necessarily need to side with evils, and therefore having less wincon problems. Of course, this could be avoided by making Witch win while dead, but then Witch can do crazy stuff when they basically win (since they actually have an ability) and it becomes more of a faction role. I think the wincon should be "Live to see only killers left alive" meaning Witch CAN win with Town, but it would really hard to (only Jailor, Vigilante, and Veteran).

[Soulshade55r]

Maybe if the witch is the last evil left they get Cls drain? Not really much you can do to give witch

Yeah no, NE shouldnt be able to kill

Then the game should auto end if they're aren't any killers left no reason for witches to stall games.

[Paradox12]

Imo, the whole thing about NE needing to be in favour of evils is inherently broken, since roles like Witch just straight up rely on evils to win, while Jester and Executioner don't necessarily need to side with evils, and therefore having less wincon problems. Of course, this could be avoided by making Witch win while dead, but then Witch can do crazy stuff when they basically win (since they actually have an ability) and it becomes more of a faction role. I think the wincon should be "Live to see only killers left alive" meaning Witch CAN win with Town, but it would really hard to (only Jailor, Vigilante, and Veteran).

That would be really difficult to pull off without having the winning faction intentionally throw the game so the witch can win. If mafia is the winning faction, they would have to lynch all of their RMs so the witch can win (as no RM except ambusher can kill). If town is the winning faction, they'd have to lynch every single non-killing townie so the witch can win.

[Joacgroso]

Relying on other players in order to win is something pretty normal in this game. It happens with every town role except jailor, vigi, trans, mayor, VH (in DP) and maybe vet. If you don't get any of those roles and the rest of the town is a bunch of passive idiots, then you will lose no matter how good you are at scumreading.
And since you mentioned the thing were a townie claims witch to mafia/coven/vampires and get the numbers, notice that this also screws up unfairly the rest of the mafia/coven/vampires. But we can rework all the roles just because of that. This game is inherently unfair.
If you ask me, the problems with witches are:
-They have an undeserved basic defense against town. I think vigilantes/crusaders should be able to kill them.
-They can't really side with arsonists. Since they don't know wheter they are doused or not, they always have to lynch arsonists before they ignite, just in case. And if they happen to visit the arsonists, they become mortal enemies from then.

Witches shouldn't be able to win while dead, at least not if they die with townies alive. This would allow them to suicide into vigilantes/jailor to give evils mayority. It's already bad that there's nothing town can do to stop a witch from controlling people, except threatening with a lookout or jailing the witch.

[Kelisidina]

Relying on other players in order to win is something pretty normal in this game. It happens with every town role except jailor, vigi, trans, mayor, VH (in DP) and maybe vet. If you don't get any of those roles and the rest of the town is a bunch of passive idiots, then you will lose no matter how good you are at scumreading.

My apologies --> I meant on having to rely on other factions. The chance of getting a solo witch win is next to impossible- you need to rely on the survival of another faction.

And since you mentioned the thing were a townie claims witch to mafia/coven/vampires and get the numbers, notice that this also screws up unfairly the rest of the mafia/coven/vampires. But we can rework all the roles just because of that. This game is inherently unfair.

Yes, but mafia/coven/vampires are all part of a team. A witch should not have to be punished in ranked because a mafia member fucked it up.

-They can't really side with arsonists. Since they don't know wheter they are doused or not, they always have to lynch arsonists before they ignite, just in case. And if they happen to visit the arsonists, they become mortal enemies from then.

I support this- arsonist should not be able to douse anybody if controlled. That literally destroys the partnership between witch/arso. One thing I used to do in ranked is if I knew who arso was [without controlling them], I would control townies into arso so that they would have more people to douse.

Witches shouldn't be able to win while dead, at least not if they die with townies alive. This would allow them to suicide into vigilantes/jailor to give evils mayority. It's already bad that there's nothing town can do to stop a witch from controlling people, except threatening with a lookout or jailing the witch.

I support this as well- witch is a neutral player and thus is solo.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

A quick solution for now (before getting to rework witch win con) its to make that if town wins but you didnt die as witch, you dont lose elo, you were doing it well if you survived to the end of the game and you shouldnt be punished for others playing bad

[Joacgroso]

A quick solution for now (before getting to rework witch win con) its to make that if town wins but you didnt die as witch, you dont lose elo, you were doing it well if you survived to the end of the game and you shouldnt be punished for others playing bad

That could make bad players side with town as witch just to cut the losses, in the same way as NKs used to suicide on jailor in the old ranked rolelist.

Yes, but mafia/coven/vampires are all part of a team. A witch should not have to be punished in ranked because a mafia member fucked it up.

Right now, witches and mafia are pretty much the same team in ranked. Witches don't have other options.

[cob709]

Teamwork is essential for victory.

[kyuss420]

I hate when i get town and have to 100% rely on other town in order to win

[Case 1 where town sucks ass] In ranked [most competitive game mode], if all the towns are dead and the game still continues on, the maf know to just hang me and they win.
[Case 2 where town sucks ass] Let's say a maf member fake-claimed sheriff to a bad town member, and the town member outs all their town to the maf. Boom --> maf easily kills all the towns and I immediately lose despite doing nothing wrong.

I could go on and on, but the main issue I have is that town needs to rely on other towns having some cognition in their brain for a win.

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