Ranked Rolelists

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Ranked Rolelists

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:24 pm

Hey Townies!

Now that we are in off season one thing we are looking to do is make potential improvements to the Ranked role list. We are open to community suggestions on this, and if you would like to suggest a role list improvement please follow this format.

1:Suggested Role List

2:Why this role list is better. Allows for more claim space, gives evils more power, takes away some elements of RNG to reduce swing etc.

Try to keep suggestions serious, and don't suggest any Ranked Troll Lists please.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:35 pm

Ill start off with something random.

1:
Town: 10
Jailor
TP
TK
TS
2x TI
4x RT
Mafia: 5
GF
MK
3x RM

2: It could be interesting to see how games with only 2 factions play out eliminating any potential Kingmaking, and reducing variance of KPN potential. RM or MK could role Ambusher, which would raise KPN again to potentially 2+, but requires more awareness of the game state to pull off.

Problems with this list could be that without a Jester or Exe hanging people is punished way less. Without an NK KPN might be too low with how powerful some Town members are. RM could role 3 ambushers I guess, with MK rolling a 4th, that might be a crazy game, but not the avg. Sheriff invest results are are only faked by disguises, and transporter messing with targeting.

Edit: People also just enjoy playing NK and NE roles, so that is a loss.

Edit2: It seems I was unclear at first in saying "Ill start off with something random." This is not a role list currently being considered. It was something I wrote up right after I posted as an example of how to format a post.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:54 pm

Here's my idea:

Jailor
Town (Investigative)
Town (Protective)
Town (Support)
Town (Killing)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather/Coven Leader
Mafia (Killing)/Medusa
Mafia (Support)/Coven (Evil)
Mafia (Deception)/Coven (Evil)
Random Neutral
Random Neutral

Additional rules:
- Don't allow Vampire to spawn in Random Neutral slots (Vampire should be given its own factional alignment imo)
- Don't allow two neutral roles of the same subalignment to spawn
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Robbytherobot » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:33 pm

I like 5 mafia, but if thats created there should be a new classic gamemode that has more evils like NK
Last edited by Robbytherobot on Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby eurasia11 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:34 pm

Could you consider adding back survivor in some way? The first ranked role list was my favorite role list but I understand why it was removed since that town won 80% of the time. Ideally I would want town to win more than evils (65/35 stakes)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby RiceHatMan » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:41 pm

9 Town
4 Mafia
2 NK(always different factions from each other)

Role List:
Jailor
Town (Investigative)
Town (Investigative)
Town (Protective)
Town (Support)
Town (Killing)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random (Mafia)
Random (Mafia)
Werewolf
Neutral (Killing)

Reasoning:
Neutral evils, in general, are very swingy. Jester is the only one that feels perfect for the game, since Executioner may have a easily confirmed target, and Witch helps evils way more than the others. Also, in high elo, all Neutral Evils, except Witch, get a free win from Town, since it is always a 1 for 1, maybe even a 2 for 0 if a Jester haunts another evil. This means, unless Town is close to losing majority, it is always beneficial to let Neutral Evil to win, clearing claim space and speeding up the game. Witch, on the other hand, makes it so much harder for Town, making Neutral Evils too swingy and nearly useless in high elo (except for Witch). Replacing it with Werewolf will increase the kpn, while also introducing skillful plays late-game, both for evils and Town. This will also get rid of the kingmaker Neutral Evil, which gets frustrating and ruins the fun for many evils.
By the way, Werewolf is unique, meaning the Neutral (Killing) slot will have to be either Serial Killer or Arsonist, making Neutral (Killing) teams impossible to prevent the role list from being too swingy.
This is strictly for classic ranked, since I do not have enough experience with coven ranked.
Last edited by RiceHatMan on Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby ScarfVendetta » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:44 pm

shapesifter13 wrote: Spoiler: Ill start off with something random.

1:
Town: 10
Jailor
TP
TK
TS
2x TI
4x RT
Mafia: 5
GF
MK
3x RM

2: It could be interesting to see how games with only 2 factions play out eliminating any potential Kingmaking, and reducing variance of KPN potential. RM or MK could role Ambusher, which would raise KPN again to potentially 2+, but requires more awareness of the game state to pull off.

Problems with this list could be that without a Jester or Exe hanging people is punished way less. Without an NK KPN might be too low with how powerful some Town members are. RM could role 3 ambushers I guess, with MK rolling a 4th, that might be a crazy game, but not the avg. Sheriff invest results are are only faked by disguises, and transporter messing with targeting.

Edit: People also just enjoy playing NK and NE roles, so that is a loss.

I feel that a 10 vs 5 would be too town-sided, especially without a Neutral Killing to contribute kills. Gaining an evil majority would take a lot longer, which gives Town longer to assess the available information. The Mafia Deception buffs and the inclusion of the new Mafia roles should help, but I don't think these additions would be enough to compensate for the increased difficulty. Ambusher is also Unique, so having multiple shouldn't become an issue.

I feel that Ranked would become less fun without the Neutral Killing present, although that's just my opinion. I know that kingmaker situations aren't ideal, but having a wildcard third faction makes games a lot more varied, and makes strategy more complex. It's also trickier to balance the rolelist around a lower KPN.

I think it might be best to keep the current rolelist for now, at least to see how the new changes will play out. :D

Ezradekezra wrote: Spoiler: Here's my idea:

Jailor
Town (Investigative)
Town (Protective)
Town (Support)
Town (Killing)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather/Coven Leader
Mafia (Killing)/Medusa
Mafia (Support)/Coven (Evil)
Mafia (Deception)/Coven (Evil)
Random Neutral
Random Neutral

Additional rules:
- Don't allow Vampire to spawn in Random Neutral slots (Vampire should be given its own factional alignment imo)
- Don't allow two neutral roles of the same subalignment to spawn

The lack of a guaranteed Mafioso would be detrimental for the Mafia, as Jailor or Escort could shut down the primary Mafia kill from Night 1. The Random Neutral slots increase variety, but also increase swing, which isn't a good aspect for a competitive gamemode. None of these changes are an improvement upon the current rolelist.
Just some Sheriff who didn't claim until Day 5, and has no leads whatsoever

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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby xTHUND3RxB1RDx » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:49 pm

My role list idea would just be to remove NK for a known Ambusher slot. This is because the 2 most swingy roles are probably Ambusher and NK because they allow for evils to potentially get up to 3+ kills in a night... But if you remove NK and replace it with Ambusher that would mean potentially 2 kills a night and not more than that cause that's pretty OP.

But for this role list you would need to rework Investigator because without NK that would make the invest results kind of OP and I think you should rework Ambusher as well where it doesn't show up in RM since you know it's gonna be in game and 2 would allow for a potential of 3 kills in a night, and where Ambusher doesn't reveal their name if they kill someone to allow it to go for more kills. Another problem with having NK in ranked is that it makes evils sometimes accidentally kill each other in the early nights in the game which is bad for them...
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:18 pm

I just want to say don't remove neutral roles from ranked please. I agree that Jester is problematic but removing neutral roles would reduce variety too much. Jester could be moved to Neutral Benign and new NE roles could be implemented in his place.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:43 pm

Clarified in my post with the 10 town v 5 mafia list that it was not something being considered. Just something to help explain how a post should be made on this thread.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Brilliand » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:49 pm

SkorumpowanyGlut wrote:removing neutral roles would reduce variety too much.


How is this different from saying "removing neutral roles would reduce swing too much"?

shapesifter13 wrote:Clarified in my post with the 10 town v 5 mafia list that it was not something being considered. Just something to help explain how a post should be made on this thread.


It's a good enough idea that it deserves to be considered and commented on. Kingmaking sucks for a competitive gamemode, and removing the NK as well as the possibility of Executioner and Jester is the only way to put a stop to the kingmaking. Going all the way to "only two factions, each of which win or lose as a group" also makes it easier to tweak the ELO system to accurately represent player skill.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:34 pm

Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (investigative)
Town (support)
Town (protective)
Town (protective)
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafia (Killing)
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral (Killing)
Random neutral (Vamp cannot spawn)

(If its posible make that there cannot be more than 2 of the same role)

Why: This role list doesnt has jailor guaranteed, it still has a good chance of apearing though

Three TK has a high advantage for town, but it increase risk and also gives more claim spaces to mafioso, ambusher and GF

It has 1 less TI so is harder to get information for town to know who to kill/lynch and reduces chances of LO, effectively reducing jailor meta

2 Town protective since KPN potential is increased

2 Random town (instead of 3) may make the claim spaces tigherfor evils but it also pressures people to claim early to take them, making it more chaotic

Mafia killing instead of mafioso, you have 2 options
A: You have mafioso, usual mafioso GF combo and ambusher can appear in RM
B: You have ambusher, you lose mafioso GF combo at the cost of increasing your KPN potential, mafioso can appear in RM

Random neutral gives a higher variety (again, please dont make vamps posible because conversion roles sucks for a competitive play imo), it can be a surv or amne, maybe a second SK, it reduces the chances of a kingmaker role (since with the current role list you have a 2/3 of having them)


Other idea is ranked having 2 role lists, each one having 50% chance of appearing, but thats only my idea
Last edited by syjfwbaobfwl on Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:38 pm

Hagg1s wrote:Jailor
Veteran
Transporter
Vigilante
Bodyguard
Witch
Godfather
Witch
Mafioso
Witch
Serial Killer
Witch
Werewolf
Witch
Arsonist



Ranked is a competitive game mode, not a chaotic one, this list looks like you just took everything and out it there, it should have random spots instead of fixed roles, and is imposible for town and maf to win in this one
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:38 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (investigative)
Town (support)
Town (protective)
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafia (Killing)
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral (Killing)
Random neutral (Vamp cannot spawn)

This is all fun and games until you get a game with 6 Vigilantes, an Ambusher, and 2 Serial Killers.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:44 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (investigative)
Town (support)
Town (protective)
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafia (Killing)
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral (Killing)
Random neutral (Vamp cannot spawn)

This is all fun and games until you get a game with 6 Vigilantes, an Ambusher, and 2 Serial Killers.



I though non-unique roles are limited to 4
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:51 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (investigative)
Town (support)
Town (protective)
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafia (Killing)
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral (Killing)
Random neutral (Vamp cannot spawn)

This is all fun and games until you get a game with 6 Vigilantes, an Ambusher, and 2 Serial Killers.

I though non-unique roles are limited to 4

You can spawn 6 Vigilantes in a custom game

I'm not sure if there's a cap for roles spawning in random slots
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Brilliand » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:01 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote: Spoiler: Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (killing)
Town (investigative)
Town (support)
Town (protective)
Town (protective)
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafia (Killing)
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral (Killing)
Random neutral (Vamp cannot spawn)

(If its posible make that there cannot be more than 2 of the same role)

Why: This role list doesnt has jailor guaranteed, it still has a good chance of apearing though

Three TK has a high advantage for town, but it increase risk and also gives more claim spaces to mafioso, ambusher and GF

It has 1 less TI so is harder to get information for town to know who to kill/lynch and reduces chances of LO, effectively reducing jailor meta

2 Town protective since KPN potential is increased

2 Random town (instead of 3) may make the claim spaces tigherfor evils but it also pressures people to claim early to take them, making it more chaotic

Mafia killing instead of mafioso, you have 2 options
A: You have mafioso, usual mafioso GF combo and ambusher can appear in RM
B: You have ambusher, you lose mafioso GF combo at the cost of increasing your KPN potential, mafioso can appear in RM

Random neutral gives a higher variety (again, please dont make vamps posible because conversion roles sucks for a competitive play imo), it can be a surv or amne, maybe a second SK, it reduces the chances of a kingmaker role (since with the current role list you have a 2/3 of having them)


Other idea is ranked having 2 role lists, each one having 50% chance of appearing, but thats only my idea


+ No guaranteed confirmed townie to start off the tp/lo meta
- Far more swing

While it's nice to have players suspecting that maybe no Jailor exists, the rare game were it's true that no Jailor exists will set the Town back too much imo.

Similarly, a second NK spawning some of the time would throw the faction winrates all out of whack.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby cob709 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm

Role list: 9 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals
Spoiler: Jailor - To reduce swing of the chance that jailor does not spawn for town.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Protective) - To guarantee that there is at least 1 protective Town in the game so that Mafia has to choose their kills carefully
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Godfather - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafioso - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafia (Support) - To give Mafia the power to manipulate Night time actions
Random Mafia - To have various sets of Mafia teams to prevent Town from figuring out role list
Neutral (Killing) - To kill Townies quicker for Mafia, or to kill Mafia and prevent a quick game over
Witch - To help Neutral Killing or Mafia and oppose Town.

Additional Notes: The high amount of Random Town may cause instability in the role list(aka swingy). The solution would be to add more investigatives, which would result in Mafia (Support) to be changed to Mafia (Deception)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Brilliand » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:50 pm

cob709 wrote:Role list: 9 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals
Spoiler: Jailor - To reduce swing of the chance that jailor does not spawn for town.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Protective) - To guarantee that there is at least 1 protective Town in the game so that Mafia has to choose their kills carefully
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Godfather - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafioso - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafia (Support) - To give Mafia the power to manipulate Night time actions
Random Mafia - To have various sets of Mafia teams to prevent Town from figuring out role list
Neutral (Killing) - To kill Townies quicker for Mafia, or to kill Mafia and prevent a quick game over
Witch - To help Neutral Killing or Mafia and oppose Town.


Converting the NE slot to a guaranteed Witch is a straightforward improvement, but why did you remove the guaranteed TK and TS slots?

(As for the RM to MS change, I'm guessing that was prompted by this thread: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked. I'm ambivalent about it personally.)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby cob709 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:00 pm

Brilliand wrote:
cob709 wrote:Role list: 9 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals
Spoiler: Jailor - To reduce swing of the chance that jailor does not spawn for town.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Protective) - To guarantee that there is at least 1 protective Town in the game so that Mafia has to choose their kills carefully
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Godfather - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafioso - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafia (Support) - To give Mafia the power to manipulate Night time actions
Random Mafia - To have various sets of Mafia teams to prevent Town from figuring out role list
Neutral (Killing) - To kill Townies quicker for Mafia, or to kill Mafia and prevent a quick game over
Witch - To help Neutral Killing or Mafia and oppose Town.


Converting the NE slot to a guaranteed Witch is a straightforward improvement, but why did you remove the guaranteed TK and TS slots?

(As for the RM to MS change, I'm guessing that was prompted by this thread: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked. I'm ambivalent about it personally.)

I chose to remove TK slot because Town already has Jailor to kill during the night. If they received an additional Town(Killing) role, then mafia can quickly be eliminated in a span of merely two nights. Town also has majority during the day for their lynch, so they should have plenty of opportunities to eliminate the Mafia without the extra vigilante/veteran.
And as for the TS slot, I considered adding it for the role list. However, as in the Town(Investigative) slot, I stated that I didn't want town to be ability-based. I removed it for consistency

The witch replacement works nicely with this role list, because they are able to stop town from gaining information by controlling a TI, but they're also able to gain information from controlling said TI.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Royee » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:39 am

cob709 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
cob709 wrote:Role list: 9 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals
Spoiler: Jailor - To reduce swing of the chance that jailor does not spawn for town.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Protective) - To guarantee that there is at least 1 protective Town in the game so that Mafia has to choose their kills carefully
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Godfather - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafioso - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafia (Support) - To give Mafia the power to manipulate Night time actions
Random Mafia - To have various sets of Mafia teams to prevent Town from figuring out role list
Neutral (Killing) - To kill Townies quicker for Mafia, or to kill Mafia and prevent a quick game over
Witch - To help Neutral Killing or Mafia and oppose Town.


Converting the NE slot to a guaranteed Witch is a straightforward improvement, but why did you remove the guaranteed TK and TS slots?

(As for the RM to MS change, I'm guessing that was prompted by this thread: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked. I'm ambivalent about it personally.)

I chose to remove TK slot because Town already has Jailor to kill during the night. If they received an additional Town(Killing) role, then mafia can quickly be eliminated in a span of merely two nights. Town also has majority during the day for their lynch, so they should have plenty of opportunities to eliminate the Mafia without the extra vigilante/veteran.
And as for the TS slot, I considered adding it for the role list. However, as in the Town(Investigative) slot, I stated that I didn't want town to be ability-based. I removed it for consistency

The witch replacement works nicely with this role list, because they are able to stop town from gaining information by controlling a TI, but they're also able to gain information from controlling said TI.

shouldn't you give mafia md instead or rm?
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:36 am

I'm going to suggest two pretty different things to the current ranked role list sorry if they do seem unbalanced ^^

My suggestion if we wanted Neutral Benign back in ranked:
Spoiler: Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - Imo Mayor Needs to be in if the situation is 8v6 [+1] so town doesn't lose majority
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Random Town - 4 Random slots Support and Killing are covered by Mayor and Jailor, this allows good claim space.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather - Should always be a GF
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso] - Allows more Varity, 50%+ chance doesn't make jailed GF's automatically sus
Random Mafia - I feel like the recent mafia buffs puts deception on Supports level
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing - Extra KPN.
Neutral Evil - Evil/Neutral Support
Neutral Benign - Someone whos not really directly against anyone early game, I feel like most smart Amnes and Survivors will generally side with the winning team.


No Neutral Killer Ranked: (9v6)
Spoiler: Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - 6 Scum who objectively work with each other are powerful and random mayors are swingy
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Town Killing - Extra Killing support, but can be used by witch to help mafia [Aka shooting town with vig or making town visit vet]
Random Town - 4 Random slots drastically weakens ccing Ti, Tp ect.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso]
Mafia Support - Extra Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch - Witch is the Best example of a NE whos objectively aganist the town, Witch would be the strongest "Mafia" but be a lone wolf until they find maf.


Both of these lists are very Mayor and Jailor dependent, I feel like Mayor randomly spawning in ranked shouldn't be a thing but I don't think they devs would get rid of the Role for ranked.

-For coven it would be the same for both just replace Mafia Killing with "Medusa" and RM/MS for CE (And witch for NE)
Last edited by Soulshade55r on Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby RiceHatMan » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:18 am

cob709 wrote:Role list: 9 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals
Jailor - To reduce swing of the chance that jailor does not spawn for town.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Protective) - To guarantee that there is at least 1 protective Town in the game so that Mafia has to choose their kills carefully
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Godfather - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafioso - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafia (Support) - To give Mafia the power to manipulate Night time actions
Random Mafia - To have various sets of Mafia teams to prevent Town from figuring out role list
Neutral (Killing) - To kill Townies quicker for Mafia, or to kill Mafia and prevent a quick game over
Witch - To help Neutral Killing or Mafia and oppose Town.
Additional Notes: The high amount of Random Town may cause instability in the role list(aka swingy). The solution would be to add more investigatives, which would result in Mafia (Support) to be changed to Mafia (Deception)

Well, I dislike the Mafia Support for reasons I explained in the original thread. Mafia is an informed minority, so their team being more swingy has more of an impact on Town than on themselves. Also, Town is not in a very good situation. They only have one confirmed Town Protective, and have a very high chance of losing. For example, Town instantly loses from one mislynch, assuming Jailor isn't cheating, and Town is also forced to hang day 2 or they lose majority the next night.

By the way, could I get feedback on my role list? It would be much appreciated.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:27 am

Harryyoshi wrote:
cob709 wrote:Role list: 9 Townies, 4 Mafia, 2 Neutrals
Jailor - To reduce swing of the chance that jailor does not spawn for town.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Investigative) - To ensure Town is based primarily around information, and not abilities.
Town (Protective) - To guarantee that there is at least 1 protective Town in the game so that Mafia has to choose their kills carefully
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Random Town - To provide Mafia with more flexibility on claim space
Godfather - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafioso - To prevent a situation where Mafia cannot kill
Mafia (Support) - To give Mafia the power to manipulate Night time actions
Random Mafia - To have various sets of Mafia teams to prevent Town from figuring out role list
Neutral (Killing) - To kill Townies quicker for Mafia, or to kill Mafia and prevent a quick game over
Witch - To help Neutral Killing or Mafia and oppose Town.
Additional Notes: The high amount of Random Town may cause instability in the role list(aka swingy). The solution would be to add more investigatives, which would result in Mafia (Support) to be changed to Mafia (Deception)

Well, I dislike the Mafia Support for reasons I explained in the original thread. Mafia is an informed minority, so their team being more swingy has more of an impact on Town than on themselves. Also, Town is not in a very good situation. They only have one confirmed Town Protective, and have a very high chance of losing. For example, Town instantly loses from one mislynch, assuming Jailor isn't cheating, and Town is also forced to hang day 2 or they lose majority the next night.

By the way, could I get feedback on my role list? It would be much appreciated.


Here's a little bit of feedback

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Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby SwampRabbit » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:51 am

shapesifter13 wrote:Hey Townies!

Now that we are in off season one thing we are looking to do is make potential improvements to the Ranked role list. We are open to community suggestions on this, and if you would like to suggest a role list improvement please follow this format.

1:Suggested Role List

2:Why this role list is better. Allows for more claim space, gives evils more power, takes away some elements of RNG to reduce swing etc.

Try to keep suggestions serious, and don't suggest any Ranked Troll Lists please.


Hey Shape, and thanks for asking.

Let me preface this with I think the NK should be removed from ranked, and to the people who love NK, great, I like it too, but go play it in another game mode.

What we have seen in the ranked tournament play is that by using a score system to force the evils to work together, the mafia achieves greater than 40% win rate and town just over 50%, with NK still hovering around 5%. (You have the link to this data on your discord). You could probably achieve this same result by an adjustment to the elo system to where all evils benefit when an evil faction wins, but if you are looking at the role list itself, I have 2 suggestions.

Option A: (9 town, 5 mafia, 1 NE). The improvement here compared to our tournament games would be mafia knowing who the 5th evil on their side is from the start. The downside is the reduced number of kills for evils. I think the NE remaining in game is important to give doubt to the TI results. Without a NE, when a TI finds someone, that person is kind of stuck of will get lynched 9/10 times.

Jailor
2 TI
1TK
1TP
1TS
3 RT
GF
Maf
3 RM
1 NE


Option B: (9 town, 4 mafia, 2 NEs)

Jailor
2 TI
1TK
1TP
1TS
3 RT
GF
Maf
Ambusher (to give mafia the potential for 2 kills per night to make up for the lack of NK)
RM
2 NE to help evils defend against being caught by a TI

Also, as a side note, I think witch should win when mafia wins even if the witch is dead. We have seen that the presence of a witch over jester/exe increases the mafia's chance of winning by around 30%, even though the witch wins only about half that time. Therefore, for fairness, I think the dead witch should also win with a successful mafia. And also, to encourage the jester and exe to side with mafia over town, more elo for winning with mafia would be an incentive.

My preference on paper is option B. The ranked tournament server is asking for another tournament. We can run one using a custom list and see how it works in practice with actual ranked players, rather than FM or players of other modes. I will set it up to start this weekend and send you the link to follow along.

Regards...
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