Ranked Rolelists

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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby MegaLT » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:42 pm

Multiple rolelists in ranked
In my opinion, whatever rolelist which is gonna be added to ranked will be problematic, so I have a suggestion which I don't think was suggested: Make ranked consist of multiple rolelists

Why is this needed? The reason why this is needed is because ranked has a huge variety of players, below average players, average players, and players who are very skilled. Look at classic gamemode, town is overpowered there, but since the list is played by below average players, the list is somewhat balanced and evens can easily win there.
That's whyI think each category of players should have their own rolelist in ranked, because if the list is good for an avarage player, it doesn't mean this list will be good for very skilled players, the smarter the town is, the higher town win rate is, this is the reason why evils are often screwed in master elo games

so how would this work? There would be 3 or 2 rolelists for ranked. Lets for simplicity name those lists:
List for Silver and Bronze players(0-1400 elo) : A
List for Gold and Platium Players(1400-1800) : B
List for Diamond and Master elo(1800+): C

I know that elo isn't best way of showing player skill, but that's the best we got when we need to identify the skill of massive amount of people

When you would join a ranked your current elo will give an automatic vote to the list mentioned above(player isn't the one who is voting), whichever list gets the most votes is played. If the vote is a tie, list B is played.

For example, if ranked gets 15 players and 8 of them are above 1800+ elo, list C is put on play. if there is 6people below 1400 elo, 3people with 1500 elo and 6 people above 1800 elo, list B is put on play.

If needed, if peoples with 1800+ elo list C is not the winner, their vote auto changes to list B, so if there is 6 people with below 1400 elo, 4 people with about 1500 elo and 5 people with above 1800 elo, list B get's played, not list A



So, what would those 3 lists could be? Well I think some of the past or present lists could work.

List A (for below 1400 elo) OLD RANKED LIST
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town

Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia

Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign

Any

I think that old ranked list has a potential.


List B (for players 1400-1800 elo) Season 4 ranked list
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil


I think that the current ranked list is suitable as a middle list, both evils and town are somewhat balanced if town is dominated by average players, not the very skilled ones or below average, changes can be implemented to this list, such as 10 town vs 5 mafia one, not sure if it's needed though.

List C (1800+ elo)

The list C in my opinion is hard to make, having in mind that you have to keep it ranked based, not some chaotic gamemode, gamemode has to be still balanced, 1 or 2 town death N1 shouldn't make town automacticly lose.
After some thinking, I concluded that very highly skilled players don't need jailor, jailor can be extremly op if played by a right person, so instead I came up with this list
(I'M VERY UNSURE IF THIS IS A GOOD, list wasn't tested)

Vigilante
Vigilante
Vigilante
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative

Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Executioner
Executioner


No jailor means I can't use random town or town killing(so that a random jailor wouldn't apear), so instead of random town, Town investigative makes the bigest claim space, instead oh jailor, we have vigilantes as killing power for town, and a few Tps, because we need them 2 of them should be enough.

Giving the fact that this would be played by Diamond or Master Elo, I doubt that vigilantes would random shoot N2 if they don't have a clear lead or suspection, I couldn't add town support because town support can easily fill up, -1 town support slot with mayor reveal, retri is unique, 2 mediums often make -2 TS slot, and adding 3 or more Town support would make it too chaotic with the possibility of 3 escorts or transporters


There is another list, though, I don't think anyone would consider this a worthy of ranked, due to having no randoms.
C list 2 "Tactical Town vs Mafia" (List creator GordianGames19)

Godfather
Mafioso
Consigliere
Consort

Executioner
Executioner

Sheriff
Investigator
Investigator
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
Vigilante
Vigilante
Escort
Escort


you are probably thinking that Town is OP, evils have no claimspace etc... but if you look closely, every mafia can pick a claim very easily and due to invest being there they might, GF might and can claim BG, mafioso can claim vig, consort and can claim escort, and consigliere can claim invest, this would result in a counter claim rain for each role, sheriff is weakest Ti role, so 1 sheriff is more than enough(sneaky players might counter claim it anyway).

This list has been played 8 times, and out of those 8 games, 7 were won by mafia and only 1 town win, and this wasn't played by classic players where 3 people leave N1 or are afk, this was played by average players, and the town win there was because town pulled it together and managed to use their roles to their maximum damage(BG killed Mafioso mid game, comfirming an escort who later finds GF). The reason why town is having such a hard time is because they can easily be overwhelmed by the 2 executioners in the list and the counterclaims mafia are doing on them, since mafia counter claim every town role(maybe except sheriff). So only extremly smart town can pull this of.

Even if you dissagree with my list choices for the categories, I think the idea of having 3 or at least 2 diffrent lists should be implemented.
I may think of new ideas for the lists, especially for the C one, but that's it for now
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Venusupreme » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:56 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.

Considering 2 of the 3 nes are Nb :/ kinda yikes

I definitely think nb is more balanced then nk in a ranked setting but I don't think we need to resort into putting nb instead of a witch or Mafioso instead of rt

This... well, kinda. The main problem with NBs is that Survivor is boring as fuck to play, and Amnesiac and Survivor will BOTH wind up siding with town most of the time. Executioner and Jester both have goals that at least usually wind up helping evils more often than not.

What should have been done to the list, if anything, was to replace the NK slot with a guaranteed Witch. That way, it's 9 town, 4 mafia, witch, and a second NE. It's still 9 town versus 6 evils, and the 6 evils can (at least in theory) all win together instead of NK which can sometimes step on Mafia's toes, and vice versa.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:09 pm

Venusupreme wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.

Considering 2 of the 3 nes are Nb :/ kinda yikes

I definitely think nb is more balanced then nk in a ranked setting but I don't think we need to resort into putting nb instead of a witch or Mafioso instead of rt

This... well, kinda. The main problem with NBs is that Survivor is boring as fuck to play, and Amnesiac and Survivor will BOTH wind up siding with town most of the time. Executioner and Jester both have goals that at least usually wind up helping evils more often than not.

What should have been done to the list, if anything, was to replace the NK slot with a guaranteed Witch. That way, it's 9 town, 4 mafia, witch, and a second NE. It's still 9 town versus 6 evils, and the 6 evils can (at least in theory) all win together instead of NK which can sometimes step on Mafia's toes, and vice versa.


Unironically survivor and amnesaic are my two favourite roles in classic and my favourite in coven is ga....

But yeah I can see how that Ne and a witch would be a lot better
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:52 pm

MegaLT wrote:Multiple rolelists in ranked
In my opinion, whatever rolelist which is gonna be added to ranked will be problematic, so I have a suggestion which I don't think was suggested: Make ranked consist of multiple rolelists

Why is this needed? The reason why this is needed is because ranked has a huge variety of players, below average players, average players, and players who are very skilled. Look at classic gamemode, town is overpowered there, but since the list is played by below average players, the list is somewhat balanced and evens can easily win there.
That's whyI think each category of players should have their own rolelist in ranked, because if the list is good for an avarage player, it doesn't mean this list will be good for very skilled players, the smarter the town is, the higher town win rate is, this is the reason why evils are often screwed in master elo games

so how would this work? There would be 3 or 2 rolelists for ranked. Lets for simplicity name those lists:
List for Silver and Bronze players(0-1400 elo) : A
List for Gold and Platium Players(1400-1800) : B
List for Diamond and Master elo(1800+): C

I know that elo isn't best way of showing player skill, but that's the best we got when we need to identify the skill of massive amount of people

When you would join a ranked your current elo will give an automatic vote to the list mentioned above(player isn't the one who is voting), whichever list gets the most votes is played. If the vote is a tie, list B is played.

For example, if ranked gets 15 players and 8 of them are above 1800+ elo, list C is put on play. if there is 6people below 1400 elo, 3people with 1500 elo and 6 people above 1800 elo, list B is put on play.

If needed, if peoples with 1800+ elo list C is not the winner, their vote auto changes to list B, so if there is 6 people with below 1400 elo, 4 people with about 1500 elo and 5 people with above 1800 elo, list B get's played, not list A



So, what would those 3 lists could be? Well I think some of the past or present lists could work.

List A (for below 1400 elo) OLD RANKED LIST
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town

Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia

Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign

Any

I think that old ranked list has a potential.


List B (for players 1400-1800 elo) Season 4 ranked list
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil


I think that the current ranked list is suitable as a middle list, both evils and town are somewhat balanced if town is dominated by average players, not the very skilled ones or below average, changes can be implemented to this list, such as 10 town vs 5 mafia one, not sure if it's needed though.

List C (1800+ elo)

The list C in my opinion is hard to make, having in mind that you have to keep it ranked based, not some chaotic gamemode, gamemode has to be still balanced, 1 or 2 town death N1 shouldn't make town automacticly lose.
After some thinking, I concluded that very highly skilled players don't need jailor, jailor can be extremly op if played by a right person, so instead I came up with this list
(I'M VERY UNSURE IF THIS IS A GOOD, list wasn't tested)

Vigilante
Vigilante
Vigilante
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative

Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Executioner
Executioner


No jailor means I can't use random town or town killing(so that a random jailor wouldn't apear), so instead of random town, Town investigative makes the bigest claim space, instead oh jailor, we have vigilantes as killing power for town, and a few Tps, because we need them 2 of them should be enough.

Giving the fact that this would be played by Diamond or Master Elo, I doubt that vigilantes would random shoot N2 if they don't have a clear lead or suspection, I couldn't add town support because town support can easily fill up, -1 town support slot with mayor reveal, retri is unique, 2 mediums often make -2 TS slot, and adding 3 or more Town support would make it too chaotic with the possibility of 3 escorts or transporters


There is another list, though, I don't think anyone would consider this a worthy of ranked, due to having no randoms.
C list 2 "Tactical Town vs Mafia" (List creator GordianGames19)

Godfather
Mafioso
Consigliere
Consort

Executioner
Executioner

Sheriff
Investigator
Investigator
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
Vigilante
Vigilante
Escort
Escort


you are probably thinking that Town is OP, evils have no claimspace etc... but if you look closely, every mafia can pick a claim very easily and due to invest being there they might, GF might and can claim BG, mafioso can claim vig, consort and can claim escort, and consigliere can claim invest, this would result in a counter claim rain for each role, sheriff is weakest Ti role, so 1 sheriff is more than enough(sneaky players might counter claim it anyway).

This list has been played 8 times, and out of those 8 games, 7 were won by mafia and only 1 town win, and this wasn't played by classic players where 3 people leave N1 or are afk, this was played by average players, and the town win there was because town pulled it together and managed to use their roles to their maximum damage(BG killed Mafioso mid game, comfirming an escort who later finds GF). The reason why town is having such a hard time is because they can easily be overwhelmed by the 2 executioners in the list and the counterclaims mafia are doing on them, since mafia counter claim every town role(maybe except sheriff). So only extremly smart town can pull this of.

Even if you dissagree with my list choices for the categories, I think the idea of having 3 or at least 2 diffrent lists should be implemented.
I may think of new ideas for the lists, especially for the C one, but that's it for now


I think people would purposely play bad because the last two role lists are horrible
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:16 pm

n00ne23 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.

What do you suggest we do instead? We should at least give NB a shot instead of immediately dismissing the idea because "kInGmAkErS bAd".

NB was given a shot and was not and will never be good for competitive mafia, if you know the term kingmaker i'm certain you know at least one substantial reason for that but you're choosing to not care about it for whatever reason

if even the ToS devs think it is not good for competitive that should be telling you something


If people agree that nb is bad it's fairly easy to see wihy nk was removed from ranked.

I will say that the list is too town sided and I would hope that changes to buff mafia would be good aka making it 9v6
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:12 pm

n00ne23 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
n00ne23 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.

What do you suggest we do instead? We should at least give NB a shot instead of immediately dismissing the idea because "kInGmAkErS bAd".

NB was given a shot and was not and will never be good for competitive mafia, if you know the term kingmaker i'm certain you know at least one substantial reason for that but you're choosing to not care about it for whatever reason

if even the ToS devs think it is not good for competitive that should be telling you something


If people agree that nb is bad it's fairly easy to see wihy nk was removed from ranked.

I will say that the list is too town sided and I would hope that changes to buff mafia would be good aka making it 9v6

wait they actually removed NK already what

i'm actually very surprised

the new ranked list is still not good for competitive though, ambusher existing in it (introduces swing in the same way veteran and werewolf do) and it probably being more town sided than the last role list would be the glaring issues that were introduced here

significantly better literally just because NK was removed, but still bad

edit: also not having confirmed mafioso with the way tos mafia kills work is another glaring issue


I feel like the problem is that they gave town 10 and mafia 4 while having one ne.

Also problems like with having no confirmed mafioso in the role list
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Sey979 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:07 am

Here is my suggested rolelist:
Jailor.
TI
TI
TP
TS
TK
RT
RT
RT
RT
GF
AMBUSHER
RM
RM
NE
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby SwampRabbit » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:12 am

Ezradekezra wrote:What do you suggest we do instead? We should at least give NB a shot instead of immediately dismissing the idea because "kInGmAkErS bAd".


NB was given a shot before season 1. There is no reason to retry something that is already known to be a failure. It simply does not work. The amne is too much of a swing whether it joins town or whether it joins mafia. And survivor is both extremely boring and also results in too much of a swing depending on which group it sides with--they side town until they are out of vests and then they side with evils. There is zero reason to add NB to a ranked role list and every reason to keep it out.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:10 am

Hopefully they update this role list soon as everyone in ranked is getting very annoyed with how easy it is for town and Ive seen only one slim mafia win so far because town was so dumb.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:19 am

Main problems: Jailor meta, Permajailing gf/ permarbing / more townies to killing roles (ambusher gets caught easily), No other faction, more townies in general thus more confirmed townies.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:49 am

I totally agree, perhaps it will get better with time but every game Ive seen ambusher get caught so easily
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:09 am

Robbytherobot wrote:Main problems: Jailor meta, Permajailing gf/ permarbing / more townies to killing roles (ambusher gets caught easily), No other faction, more townies in general thus more confirmed townies.


Yeah I think mafioso needs a way to astral attack jailor once or ambusher needs a buff so he can destroy jailor meta
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:16 pm

Jailor meta is so large right now, might just be better to remove jailor if we keep anything like this list as jailor is too op here.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:18 pm

Robbytherobot wrote:Jailor meta is so large right now, might just be better to remove jailor if we keep anything like this list as jailor is too op here.


If you remove jailor town falls apart imo.

You'd have to make major changes to the game ect
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Sey979 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:31 pm

Just add a new rule. Jailor meta is bannable!
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby TheUltimateCake » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:41 pm

Sey979 wrote:Just add a new rule. Jailor meta is bannable!


Please tell me this is a joke, but in case it isn't, let me just explain why this is stupid. It's a strategy, something that can be performed within the game, that doesn't break any rules whatsoever. Banning metas isn't the way to go with things, and is just stupid in general. People shouldn't be punished for trying to increase their chances of winning the game, and by this logic, people asking for attributes or description or whatever should be bannable as well, maybe we should ban VFR as well! While asking for attributes or description isn't a good strategy, it still happens within the game, like jailor meta or VFR. Also, this role list promotes jailor meta even more. If ambusher is on Jailor, they'll be caught and a 1f1 with town/mafia favours Town much more then a TP,Spy or Escort dying.
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Unholy Mother Of God BMG What Have You Done

Postby Danieltheminer » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:19 am

Simply put, this rolelist is horrible... All I have to say is Reject Modernity Embrace Past Rolelist (Jailor, TI, TI, TP, TS, TK, RT, RT, RT, GF, Maf, RM, RM, NK
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby MegaLT » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:38 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
Robbytherobot wrote:Jailor meta is so large right now, might just be better to remove jailor if we keep anything like this list as jailor is too op here.


If you remove jailor town falls apart imo.

You'd have to make major changes to the game ect



Not really, town can survive and do well without jailor, all town needs is voting power and killing power at night, and there is vigilante and veteran just for that!
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby MegaLT » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:41 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
MegaLT wrote:Multiple rolelists in ranked
In my opinion, whatever rolelist which is gonna be added to ranked will be problematic, so I have a suggestion which I don't think was suggested: Make ranked consist of multiple rolelists

Why is this needed? The reason why this is needed is because ranked has a huge variety of players, below average players, average players, and players who are very skilled. Look at classic gamemode, town is overpowered there, but since the list is played by below average players, the list is somewhat balanced and evens can easily win there.
That's whyI think each category of players should have their own rolelist in ranked, because if the list is good for an avarage player, it doesn't mean this list will be good for very skilled players, the smarter the town is, the higher town win rate is, this is the reason why evils are often screwed in master elo games

so how would this work? There would be 3 or 2 rolelists for ranked. Lets for simplicity name those lists:
List for Silver and Bronze players(0-1400 elo) : A
List for Gold and Platium Players(1400-1800) : B
List for Diamond and Master elo(1800+): C

I know that elo isn't best way of showing player skill, but that's the best we got when we need to identify the skill of massive amount of people

When you would join a ranked your current elo will give an automatic vote to the list mentioned above(player isn't the one who is voting), whichever list gets the most votes is played. If the vote is a tie, list B is played.

For example, if ranked gets 15 players and 8 of them are above 1800+ elo, list C is put on play. if there is 6people below 1400 elo, 3people with 1500 elo and 6 people above 1800 elo, list B is put on play.

If needed, if peoples with 1800+ elo list C is not the winner, their vote auto changes to list B, so if there is 6 people with below 1400 elo, 4 people with about 1500 elo and 5 people with above 1800 elo, list B get's played, not list A



So, what would those 3 lists could be? Well I think some of the past or present lists could work.

List A (for below 1400 elo) OLD RANKED LIST
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town

Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia

Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign

Any

I think that old ranked list has a potential.


List B (for players 1400-1800 elo) Season 4 ranked list
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil


I think that the current ranked list is suitable as a middle list, both evils and town are somewhat balanced if town is dominated by average players, not the very skilled ones or below average, changes can be implemented to this list, such as 10 town vs 5 mafia one, not sure if it's needed though.

List C (1800+ elo)

The list C in my opinion is hard to make, having in mind that you have to keep it ranked based, not some chaotic gamemode, gamemode has to be still balanced, 1 or 2 town death N1 shouldn't make town automacticly lose.
After some thinking, I concluded that very highly skilled players don't need jailor, jailor can be extremly op if played by a right person, so instead I came up with this list
(I'M VERY UNSURE IF THIS IS A GOOD, list wasn't tested)

Vigilante
Vigilante
Vigilante
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative

Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Executioner
Executioner


No jailor means I can't use random town or town killing(so that a random jailor wouldn't apear), so instead of random town, Town investigative makes the bigest claim space, instead oh jailor, we have vigilantes as killing power for town, and a few Tps, because we need them 2 of them should be enough.

Giving the fact that this would be played by Diamond or Master Elo, I doubt that vigilantes would random shoot N2 if they don't have a clear lead or suspection, I couldn't add town support because town support can easily fill up, -1 town support slot with mayor reveal, retri is unique, 2 mediums often make -2 TS slot, and adding 3 or more Town support would make it too chaotic with the possibility of 3 escorts or transporters


There is another list, though, I don't think anyone would consider this a worthy of ranked, due to having no randoms.
C list 2 "Tactical Town vs Mafia" (List creator GordianGames19)

Godfather
Mafioso
Consigliere
Consort

Executioner
Executioner

Sheriff
Investigator
Investigator
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
Vigilante
Vigilante
Escort
Escort


you are probably thinking that Town is OP, evils have no claimspace etc... but if you look closely, every mafia can pick a claim very easily and due to invest being there they might, GF might and can claim BG, mafioso can claim vig, consort and can claim escort, and consigliere can claim invest, this would result in a counter claim rain for each role, sheriff is weakest Ti role, so 1 sheriff is more than enough(sneaky players might counter claim it anyway).

This list has been played 8 times, and out of those 8 games, 7 were won by mafia and only 1 town win, and this wasn't played by classic players where 3 people leave N1 or are afk, this was played by average players, and the town win there was because town pulled it together and managed to use their roles to their maximum damage(BG killed Mafioso mid game, comfirming an escort who later finds GF). The reason why town is having such a hard time is because they can easily be overwhelmed by the 2 executioners in the list and the counterclaims mafia are doing on them, since mafia counter claim every town role(maybe except sheriff). So only extremly smart town can pull this of.

Even if you dissagree with my list choices for the categories, I think the idea of having 3 or at least 2 diffrent lists should be implemented.
I may think of new ideas for the lists, especially for the C one, but that's it for now


I think people would purposely play bad because the last two role lists are horrible



I doubt that, but yea like I said I'm still very unsure about the lists, they(at least the last one) isn't horrible as you imply, but just aren't perfect, thought it wouldn't hurt to share it. If there was an ability to remove jailor from spawing in random town or town killing slots, making list without jailor would be much easier.
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Re: Unholy Mother Of God BMG What Have You Done

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:58 am

Danieltheminer wrote:Simply put, this rolelist is horrible... All I have to say is Reject Modernity Embrace Past Rolelist (Jailor, TI, TI, TP, TS, TK, RT, RT, RT, GF, Maf, RM, RM, NK


How about we try new stuff out before going back to the old role list I'm not in major support of the role list but I think it's good the devs experiment with new concepts (this list is too town sided)


I personally made a big thread on how the devs should go about making Tos more competitive
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=112859
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby JTWOLF » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:07 am

Why does rank have to be a 15 player set up? Ranked is popular enough that it could allow for larger games and it may make it easier to balance things. Why not have a 20 player set up? If 20 is too much, why not 17 maybe? Also another thing, why does ranked have to contain only 1 set-up? It's always been done like that, maybe a change would be ideal. Shouldn't there be around 5-10 balanced set ups created for ranked? Whenever you play a ranked practice or ranked games, one of these set ups is randomly selected. This would allow variety in ranked, so people aren't playing the same boring set up all the time.

Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Benign
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing
Neutral Killing

Jailor
Vigilante
Doctor
Investigator
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby CraZCanuck » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:10 am

If I'm honest, the S4 role list felt relatively balanced to me after the changes to NK, and then the buffs to RM (before offseason began). I don't think massive changes are required to make the role list fair and balanced, but here is my two-cents.

1:

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT

GF
MK (Amb/Maf)
MD (For/Fram/Jani/Hypno/Disg)
RM

Neutral Any (NO VAMPS)
Witch

2:

This role list has a few notable changes from S4 ranked at season's end, and I will go through and explain them all in-depth.

3 RT
In the offseason, BMG tried 4 RT slots in an attempt to open up claim space for evils. The result, in my experience with offseason ranked, was mixed. On one hand, a weak town that failed to get claims was losing more often to a smart, coordinated evil team with good claims and wills to match. This is positive. But the 10/5 split was unbalanced, and made it difficult for all but the best evils to win. 4 RT would not fit in the role-list above, and for that reason, I reverted back to 3RT. Still plenty of claim space, and a guaranteed Mafia Deception makes it easier for Mafia to cause chaos within town (messing with graveyard via forger or jani, or messing with results via hypno, framer and disg). Not having 2RM also means no unbalanced Mafia teams (looking at you 2 Consig Mafia) that can sometimes hamstring an otherwise strong mafia.

Witch
Guaranteeing a witch in the game helps Mafia explicitly, as they have at minimum 5 players actively rooting for the mafia to prevail. I like this change because witch reduces town's willingness to claim. That Vigilante that just claimed via VFR looks pretty tasty. Either you find mafia, and can then press the advantage by working with them, or you found Vigi, and an important role can be shot. Same with Vet, someone claims vet, send a TI into them. Provides an ace in the hole for evils to swing games.

Mafia Changes
Ambusher is a fun role, but having it guaranteed in ranked meant an Escort roleblocking the GF spelled the end for the Mafia in offseason. To prevent this, the slot has been replaced with MK. In some games, if the GF is rb'ed, Maf can still kill, deflecting suspicion from them. In others, no mafia kill. Will provide uncertainty, and allows for strategic options for Mafia. Gf/Maf game where theres an escort? Maybe consider not killing. Town may be fooled into lynching a townie that was rb'ed by the escort. And then they'll probably exe the escort for a consort. This provides options.
As discussed above, Mafia Deception allows for a guarantee of a relatively balanced mafia list. Reducing (and in some cases removing) the likelihood of two redundant mafia members (à la double Consig) appearing. This powers up Mafia, hopefully bringing up their win rate a touch.

Neutral Any
This will probably be the subject of much debate, as it is the most controversial. A Neutral Any slot allows for any of the following to spawn: [Amne, Surv, GA(? should escape coven imo), Exe, Jest, Witch, Arso, SK, WW]
The sheer amount of claim space this opens up, simply by adding uncertainty, is strong in my opinion. A subtle nerf to the investigator, who will now have more work to do as the Neutral roles listed above are spread among a wide variety of results.
Also adds the benefit of a possible silent evil masquerading as a town, while keeping the possibility of a jester to force town to hesitate with lynchings.
Vampires need their own faction, and are banned. For all the obvious balance reasons.

Kingmaking
I have heard the argument that 3rd party factions add the unfortunate side-effect of 'kingmaking', where in a 1v1v1 (town, maf, 3party), town essentially decides who to side with. Admittedly, this is a difficult problem to fix without removing other factions entirely. The downside, however, of removing third-party factions, is highlighted. Anyone who has played Town Traitor will concede that it lacks spice, it becomes monotonous. People may note that balance comes first, and I agree, to an extent, but if the game is no fun people will stop playing it. Neutrals do make for more fun gameplay, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
Kingmaking is not enough of a problem to justify the removal of the Neutrals, in my eyes.

TD;DR

Town of Salem was in a pretty decent shape at S4 end, and not much needs to change in my opinion. Small balance tweaks to the existing role list are all that is required for a fun, engaging ranked role list.
Last edited by CraZCanuck on Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby CraZCanuck » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:55 am

JTWOLF wrote:Why does rank have to be a 15 player set up? Ranked is popular enough that it could allow for larger games and it may make it easier to balance things. Why not have a 20 player set up? If 20 is too much, why not 17 maybe? Also another thing, why does ranked have to contain only 1 set-up? It's always been done like that, maybe a change would be ideal. Shouldn't there be around 5-10 balanced set ups created for ranked? Whenever you play a ranked practice or ranked games, one of these set ups is randomly selected. This would allow variety in ranked, so people aren't playing the same boring set up all the time.

Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Benign
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing
Neutral Killing

Jailor
Vigilante
Doctor
Investigator
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town


As fun as I imagine this would be, I can only imagine how swingy this would be. 2 SKs spawn, kill 2 town N1, maf kills a townie. now evils have a 7/10 majority. This would be problematic, albeit very fun for evils. I'd predict a 50% maf winrate here, with 7-10% WR for NK, and the rest town.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Darkness3827 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:34 pm

TL;DR: 9v4 list, remove Mafioso, make it so Mafia doesn't lose their attack if Godfather gets roleblocked or jailed.

Okay this idea is a bit weird but try to bear with it for a bit. The main issue with this role list is that it would require a rework to how Godfather works so he isn't completely useless when being roleblocked or jailed if there is no Mafioso around (cause spoiler alert, Mafioso is getting booted).

The changes to Godfather would work as follows:
1. Godfather now has roleblock immunity.
2. Whenever the Godfather gets jailed, they have the ability to send one of their fellow Mafia members to do the killing for them, basically allowing for the Mafia member to act as a Mafioso for 1 night (instead of doing whatever their normal role was) and ensure that the Mafia won't lose an attack unless the person picked also gets roleblocked.

With these 2 changes now Mafioso is effectively redundant in the starting role list, since the only situation where the Mafia could be blocked from attacking would be if the Godfather was jailed and the only mafia member left. Mafioso would still exist via promotion when the Godfather dies, but there would no longer need to be a Godfather and Mafioso at the same time.

With those changes this is how the new role list would work in my mind:
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing

This is effectively the same role list as the old 9v4 list but now with Mafioso gone. In order to prevent getting 3 of the same role, I made it so one Mafia was Support only and another was Deception only, but this could certainly be changed to 3 Random Mafia if people thought it was too restrictive or didn't like how it reduced the chances of rolling Ambusher.

Issues:
The major con of this list is pretty obvious so I'll list it first. This list would simply not work without that rework to Godfather, so it's a bit preemptive of me to suggest a rolelist that would also require a role rework to be feasible. Ultimately the reason I suggested this here and not in a role rework thing is that the only reason to rework Godfather in this way is so you can change the role list to remove Mafioso without leaving the Godfather vulnerable to being roleblocked or jailed repeatedly. The rework is much more focused on the rolelist and changing Godfather is simply an added step to make this rolelist work. If you ignore the rolelist chage, the Godfather change really doesn't affect much. Only scenario that would really change is that roleblock immunity means that the Godfather would still be able to attack if the Mafioso was already killed or also jailed/roleblocked. There would also need to be a minor rework to how roles are rolled so you couldn't get Mafioso to start the game from Random Mafia since it's fully useless now as long as the Godfather is alive. Personally I'd get rid of Ambusher as a possibility in Ranked as well, but that's just my general view on Ranked and is not specific to this role list idea.

Pros of this list IMO (compared to the old 9v4 list):
1. It gets rid of Mafioso which is incredibly boring role where you have no control over what you do until Godfather dies (or decides to AFK I guess :/).
2. It buffs Mafia by giving them a 3rd Support/Deception/Ambusher role when before it was a role that did nothing except allow the Mafia to still attack if the Godfather is jailed or roleblocked (which is what the Godfather changes are for). This can also give Mafia members more claim space since they have more information to work with from fellow Mafia members. This also adds variety to Ranked as you are more likely to get combinations that lead to useful synergies.
3. It buffs Mafia by making it harder to prevent attacks. Currently the Godfather will lose his attacks if jailed/roleblocked and the Mafioso is dead (or the Godfather is dead and the Mafioso got promoted). Roleblock immunity makes it so that the Godfather could never lose his attack from roleblocking and could only lose his attack from being jailed if he was the last Mafia member alive. The Mafia still loses one ability that night so it's not like they are completely getting unpunished by being jailed, it is just the punishment is a lot less severe than losing an attack. This is different to the old 9v4 role list as before the Mafia would be completely unpunished if the Godfather/Mafioso gets jailed as long as both of them are alive and the other one is not roleblocked. If the other one is dead though then they lose their attack which is a far more severe punishment.

Pros of this list IMO (compared to the 9v5 & 10v4 lists with no Neutral Killing):
1. It keeps the Neutral Killing which is a fun role in games and adds more variety to what can happen. This also helps make matches last longer as there is a third faction that could win if Town or Mafia just suck or the Neutral Killing can also help turn the tide to get Town/Mafia back in with a chance if the game is lopsided. Kingmaking isn't really an issue with Neutral Killing anyway, more with Neutral Evil since Jester and Executioner (if they've already won) can decide which side wins whereas the Neutral Killing is focused on making sure both Town and Mafia lose.
2. It buffs Mafia significantly without actually giving them an extra member which IMO gets Mafia wins way too quickly. While it is still the same 9v6 for Town, losing the Neutral Killing makes it so once Mafia has majority, it is very hard for them to lose it. Sure Town Killing roles exist and Transporter or Jester could also get kills on Mafia members, but for them to get enough kills to take back majority is very difficult without the Neutral Killing to get kills themselves and/or to waste a day on a lynch. Sure the Neutral Killing can also make games end quickly if they get a bunch of kills in a row on Mafia or Town, but in either of those scenarios you still wind up with a Town vs Neutral Killing or Mafia vs Neutral Killing scenario. Also as long as there is at least 1 Mafia or 1-2 Town members left then they still have a chance at coming back if the Neutral Killing avoids them.
3. Bringing back the Neutral Killing gives the Witch more options since they can now side with the Neutral Killing instead of being forced to side with the Mafia. IMO Witch is a lot more fun if you have to make a decision between siding with the Mafia or Neutral Killing. Compared to the 9v5 list Witch still has the same amount of evils to find but now if they find any one of the 5 its a 9v6 which is very difficult for Town. In a 9v4 then there is a 4/5 chance (presuming they find an evil) that the Witch will find the Mafia and will have a 9v5v1 with a 1/5 chance they'll find the Neutral Killing and it will be a 9v4v2.
4. Bringing back the Neutral Killing gives Mafia an actual non-Town threat. The Jester can be a threat, but even then it's at most 1 kill and requires the Town to waste a day lynching the Jester. Having the Neutral Killing means Mafia actually has to scum read a bit to find the Neutral Killing and take them out. Sure scum-reading can have it's uses even with just the Neutral Evil roles (particularly if they are a Jester), but it is nowhere near as important compared to if there is a Neutral Killing in the game.

Pros of this list IMO (compared to 9v5 & 10v4 lists with no Neutral Evil):
1. Neutral Killing is tough to win with as it is and adding an extra Town or an extra Mafia makes that so much harder. Sure the Neutral Evil can side against the Neutral Killing, but they at least have a chance of siding with the Neutral Killing. At that point the Neutral Killing's role basically is just to make life much harder for one of the two factions.
2. Neutral Evil roles are among some of the more fun roles to play as and removing them would remove variety. Similar to what I mentioned before about removing the Neutral Killing, I feel removing the Neutral Evil takes away a lot of the fun and variety away from the role list. Sure you remove the issue of Kingmaking but I do not feel that this is a worthy trade to make.


I was very hesitant to suggest this at first because as mentioned before it's based on reworking a role to make the role list work, but ultimately I think this list is the best way to fix the Ranked role list in a way that is more fun and hopefully more balanced that the other role lists that have been tried. I understand if people don't like it because of the role rework implied but I think it allows for far more options when designing a ranked role list without changing the core gameplay much at all. Hopefully people think this is a good idea, if not I understand. Either way thank you for taking the time to read through this.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Robbytherobot » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:26 pm

I love the new 5 mafia role list, town still isnt apt to stop insane mafia pushes but it should become known soon enough. ballanced and more skill based I hate NK so this is great.
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