Soulshade55r wrote:Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.
Considering 2 of the 3 nes are Nb :/ kinda yikes
I definitely think nb is more balanced then nk in a ranked setting but I don't think we need to resort into putting nb instead of a witch or Mafioso instead of rt
Venusupreme wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.
Considering 2 of the 3 nes are Nb :/ kinda yikes
I definitely think nb is more balanced then nk in a ranked setting but I don't think we need to resort into putting nb instead of a witch or Mafioso instead of rt
This... well, kinda. The main problem with NBs is that Survivor is boring as fuck to play, and Amnesiac and Survivor will BOTH wind up siding with town most of the time. Executioner and Jester both have goals that at least usually wind up helping evils more often than not.
What should have been done to the list, if anything, was to replace the NK slot with a guaranteed Witch. That way, it's 9 town, 4 mafia, witch, and a second NE. It's still 9 town versus 6 evils, and the 6 evils can (at least in theory) all win together instead of NK which can sometimes step on Mafia's toes, and vice versa.
MegaLT wrote:Multiple rolelists in ranked
In my opinion, whatever rolelist which is gonna be added to ranked will be problematic, so I have a suggestion which I don't think was suggested: Make ranked consist of multiple rolelists
Why is this needed? The reason why this is needed is because ranked has a huge variety of players, below average players, average players, and players who are very skilled. Look at classic gamemode, town is overpowered there, but since the list is played by below average players, the list is somewhat balanced and evens can easily win there.
That's whyI think each category of players should have their own rolelist in ranked, because if the list is good for an avarage player, it doesn't mean this list will be good for very skilled players, the smarter the town is, the higher town win rate is, this is the reason why evils are often screwed in master elo games
so how would this work? There would be 3 or 2 rolelists for ranked. Lets for simplicity name those lists:
List for Silver and Bronze players(0-1400 elo) : A
List for Gold and Platium Players(1400-1800) : B
List for Diamond and Master elo(1800+): C
I know that elo isn't best way of showing player skill, but that's the best we got when we need to identify the skill of massive amount of people
When you would join a ranked your current elo will give an automatic vote to the list mentioned above(player isn't the one who is voting), whichever list gets the most votes is played. If the vote is a tie, list B is played.
For example, if ranked gets 15 players and 8 of them are above 1800+ elo, list C is put on play. if there is 6people below 1400 elo, 3people with 1500 elo and 6 people above 1800 elo, list B is put on play.
If needed, if peoples with 1800+ elo list C is not the winner, their vote auto changes to list B, so if there is 6 people with below 1400 elo, 4 people with about 1500 elo and 5 people with above 1800 elo, list B get's played, not list A
So, what would those 3 lists could be? Well I think some of the past or present lists could work.
List A (for below 1400 elo) OLD RANKED LIST
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign
Any
I think that old ranked list has a potential.
List B (for players 1400-1800 elo) Season 4 ranked list
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
I think that the current ranked list is suitable as a middle list, both evils and town are somewhat balanced if town is dominated by average players, not the very skilled ones or below average, changes can be implemented to this list, such as 10 town vs 5 mafia one, not sure if it's needed though.
List C (1800+ elo)
The list C in my opinion is hard to make, having in mind that you have to keep it ranked based, not some chaotic gamemode, gamemode has to be still balanced, 1 or 2 town death N1 shouldn't make town automacticly lose.
After some thinking, I concluded that very highly skilled players don't need jailor, jailor can be extremly op if played by a right person, so instead I came up with this list
(I'M VERY UNSURE IF THIS IS A GOOD, list wasn't tested)
Vigilante
Vigilante
Vigilante
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
Executioner
No jailor means I can't use random town or town killing(so that a random jailor wouldn't apear), so instead of random town, Town investigative makes the bigest claim space, instead oh jailor, we have vigilantes as killing power for town, and a few Tps, because we need them 2 of them should be enough.
Giving the fact that this would be played by Diamond or Master Elo, I doubt that vigilantes would random shoot N2 if they don't have a clear lead or suspection, I couldn't add town support because town support can easily fill up, -1 town support slot with mayor reveal, retri is unique, 2 mediums often make -2 TS slot, and adding 3 or more Town support would make it too chaotic with the possibility of 3 escorts or transporters
There is another list, though, I don't think anyone would consider this a worthy of ranked, due to having no randoms.
C list 2 "Tactical Town vs Mafia" (List creator GordianGames19)
Godfather
Mafioso
Consigliere
Consort
Executioner
Executioner
Sheriff
Investigator
Investigator
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
Vigilante
Vigilante
Escort
Escort
you are probably thinking that Town is OP, evils have no claimspace etc... but if you look closely, every mafia can pick a claim very easily and due to invest being there they might, GF might and can claim BG, mafioso can claim vig, consort and can claim escort, and consigliere can claim invest, this would result in a counter claim rain for each role, sheriff is weakest Ti role, so 1 sheriff is more than enough(sneaky players might counter claim it anyway).
This list has been played 8 times, and out of those 8 games, 7 were won by mafia and only 1 town win, and this wasn't played by classic players where 3 people leave N1 or are afk, this was played by average players, and the town win there was because town pulled it together and managed to use their roles to their maximum damage(BG killed Mafioso mid game, comfirming an escort who later finds GF). The reason why town is having such a hard time is because they can easily be overwhelmed by the 2 executioners in the list and the counterclaims mafia are doing on them, since mafia counter claim every town role(maybe except sheriff). So only extremly smart town can pull this of.
Even if you dissagree with my list choices for the categories, I think the idea of having 3 or at least 2 diffrent lists should be implemented.
I may think of new ideas for the lists, especially for the C one, but that's it for now
n00ne23 wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.
What do you suggest we do instead? We should at least give NB a shot instead of immediately dismissing the idea because "kInGmAkErS bAd".
NB was given a shot and was not and will never be good for competitive mafia, if you know the term kingmaker i'm certain you know at least one substantial reason for that but you're choosing to not care about it for whatever reason
if even the ToS devs think it is not good for competitive that should be telling you something
n00ne23 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:n00ne23 wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:Venusupreme wrote:Also, anybody who thinks putting NB back into ranked is a good idea should automatically be ignored.
What do you suggest we do instead? We should at least give NB a shot instead of immediately dismissing the idea because "kInGmAkErS bAd".
NB was given a shot and was not and will never be good for competitive mafia, if you know the term kingmaker i'm certain you know at least one substantial reason for that but you're choosing to not care about it for whatever reason
if even the ToS devs think it is not good for competitive that should be telling you something
If people agree that nb is bad it's fairly easy to see wihy nk was removed from ranked.
I will say that the list is too town sided and I would hope that changes to buff mafia would be good aka making it 9v6
wait they actually removed NK already what
i'm actually very surprised
the new ranked list is still not good for competitive though, ambusher existing in it (introduces swing in the same way veteran and werewolf do) and it probably being more town sided than the last role list would be the glaring issues that were introduced here
significantly better literally just because NK was removed, but still bad
edit: also not having confirmed mafioso with the way tos mafia kills work is another glaring issue
Ezradekezra wrote:What do you suggest we do instead? We should at least give NB a shot instead of immediately dismissing the idea because "kInGmAkErS bAd".
Robbytherobot wrote:Main problems: Jailor meta, Permajailing gf/ permarbing / more townies to killing roles (ambusher gets caught easily), No other faction, more townies in general thus more confirmed townies.
Robbytherobot wrote:Jailor meta is so large right now, might just be better to remove jailor if we keep anything like this list as jailor is too op here.
Sey979 wrote:Just add a new rule. Jailor meta is bannable!
Soulshade55r wrote:Robbytherobot wrote:Jailor meta is so large right now, might just be better to remove jailor if we keep anything like this list as jailor is too op here.
If you remove jailor town falls apart imo.
You'd have to make major changes to the game ect
Soulshade55r wrote:MegaLT wrote:Multiple rolelists in ranked
In my opinion, whatever rolelist which is gonna be added to ranked will be problematic, so I have a suggestion which I don't think was suggested: Make ranked consist of multiple rolelists
Why is this needed? The reason why this is needed is because ranked has a huge variety of players, below average players, average players, and players who are very skilled. Look at classic gamemode, town is overpowered there, but since the list is played by below average players, the list is somewhat balanced and evens can easily win there.
That's whyI think each category of players should have their own rolelist in ranked, because if the list is good for an avarage player, it doesn't mean this list will be good for very skilled players, the smarter the town is, the higher town win rate is, this is the reason why evils are often screwed in master elo games
so how would this work? There would be 3 or 2 rolelists for ranked. Lets for simplicity name those lists:
List for Silver and Bronze players(0-1400 elo) : A
List for Gold and Platium Players(1400-1800) : B
List for Diamond and Master elo(1800+): C
I know that elo isn't best way of showing player skill, but that's the best we got when we need to identify the skill of massive amount of people
When you would join a ranked your current elo will give an automatic vote to the list mentioned above(player isn't the one who is voting), whichever list gets the most votes is played. If the vote is a tie, list B is played.
For example, if ranked gets 15 players and 8 of them are above 1800+ elo, list C is put on play. if there is 6people below 1400 elo, 3people with 1500 elo and 6 people above 1800 elo, list B is put on play.
If needed, if peoples with 1800+ elo list C is not the winner, their vote auto changes to list B, so if there is 6 people with below 1400 elo, 4 people with about 1500 elo and 5 people with above 1800 elo, list B get's played, not list A
So, what would those 3 lists could be? Well I think some of the past or present lists could work.
List A (for below 1400 elo) OLD RANKED LIST
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign
Any
I think that old ranked list has a potential.
List B (for players 1400-1800 elo) Season 4 ranked list
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
I think that the current ranked list is suitable as a middle list, both evils and town are somewhat balanced if town is dominated by average players, not the very skilled ones or below average, changes can be implemented to this list, such as 10 town vs 5 mafia one, not sure if it's needed though.
List C (1800+ elo)
The list C in my opinion is hard to make, having in mind that you have to keep it ranked based, not some chaotic gamemode, gamemode has to be still balanced, 1 or 2 town death N1 shouldn't make town automacticly lose.
After some thinking, I concluded that very highly skilled players don't need jailor, jailor can be extremly op if played by a right person, so instead I came up with this list
(I'M VERY UNSURE IF THIS IS A GOOD, list wasn't tested)
Vigilante
Vigilante
Vigilante
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
Executioner
No jailor means I can't use random town or town killing(so that a random jailor wouldn't apear), so instead of random town, Town investigative makes the bigest claim space, instead oh jailor, we have vigilantes as killing power for town, and a few Tps, because we need them 2 of them should be enough.
Giving the fact that this would be played by Diamond or Master Elo, I doubt that vigilantes would random shoot N2 if they don't have a clear lead or suspection, I couldn't add town support because town support can easily fill up, -1 town support slot with mayor reveal, retri is unique, 2 mediums often make -2 TS slot, and adding 3 or more Town support would make it too chaotic with the possibility of 3 escorts or transporters
There is another list, though, I don't think anyone would consider this a worthy of ranked, due to having no randoms.
C list 2 "Tactical Town vs Mafia" (List creator GordianGames19)
Godfather
Mafioso
Consigliere
Consort
Executioner
Executioner
Sheriff
Investigator
Investigator
Bodyguard
Bodyguard
Vigilante
Vigilante
Escort
Escort
you are probably thinking that Town is OP, evils have no claimspace etc... but if you look closely, every mafia can pick a claim very easily and due to invest being there they might, GF might and can claim BG, mafioso can claim vig, consort and can claim escort, and consigliere can claim invest, this would result in a counter claim rain for each role, sheriff is weakest Ti role, so 1 sheriff is more than enough(sneaky players might counter claim it anyway).
This list has been played 8 times, and out of those 8 games, 7 were won by mafia and only 1 town win, and this wasn't played by classic players where 3 people leave N1 or are afk, this was played by average players, and the town win there was because town pulled it together and managed to use their roles to their maximum damage(BG killed Mafioso mid game, comfirming an escort who later finds GF). The reason why town is having such a hard time is because they can easily be overwhelmed by the 2 executioners in the list and the counterclaims mafia are doing on them, since mafia counter claim every town role(maybe except sheriff). So only extremly smart town can pull this of.
Even if you dissagree with my list choices for the categories, I think the idea of having 3 or at least 2 diffrent lists should be implemented.
I may think of new ideas for the lists, especially for the C one, but that's it for now
I think people would purposely play bad because the last two role lists are horrible
Danieltheminer wrote:Simply put, this rolelist is horrible... All I have to say is Reject Modernity Embrace Past Rolelist (Jailor, TI, TI, TP, TS, TK, RT, RT, RT, GF, Maf, RM, RM, NK
JTWOLF wrote:Why does rank have to be a 15 player set up? Ranked is popular enough that it could allow for larger games and it may make it easier to balance things. Why not have a 20 player set up? If 20 is too much, why not 17 maybe? Also another thing, why does ranked have to contain only 1 set-up? It's always been done like that, maybe a change would be ideal. Shouldn't there be around 5-10 balanced set ups created for ranked? Whenever you play a ranked practice or ranked games, one of these set ups is randomly selected. This would allow variety in ranked, so people aren't playing the same boring set up all the time.
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Benign
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing
Neutral Killing
Jailor
Vigilante
Doctor
Investigator
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests