DecDecAttack wrote:Here's a random idea, based on other posts around the thread mostly. Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I might be forgetting something, so tell me if there is anything that needs clarification.
Soulshade55r wrote:DecDecAttack wrote:Here's a random idea, based on other posts around the thread mostly. Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I might be forgetting something, so tell me if there is anything that needs clarification.
wouldn't that be 16 players? 2 NKs is a really bad idea for ranked.
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Vamps not banned? NO
DecDecAttack wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:DecDecAttack wrote:Here's a random idea, based on other posts around the thread mostly. Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I might be forgetting something, so tell me if there is anything that needs clarification.
wouldn't that be 16 players? 2 NKs is a really bad idea for ranked.
I have taken out the RN slot, i did not really mean to add it in after thought also i thought this would be a good change of pace for ranked.
Soulshade55r wrote:My idea for a TMK list is this
Spoiler:
Keep in mind 5v10 would be way more balanced if scum had TMK and we allowed some certain nerfs to power roles such as Jailor, nerfs to roles such as Spy, Transporter and in general removed easy hard confirmations, this would also consider NE as a "mafia unaware role, where they share the objective of removing all down but don't know the mafia. This doesn't consider jester and exe as true neutral evils because jester has a benign wincon, exe has a scum sided wincon but it can still win with town and can still become jester.
6v9 doesn't work in a balanced game mode, scum only have a disadvantage so much as of now because the meta allows town to easily confirm players. We need ways that jailor can easily be countered outed, ways where tp and lo don't lump into one person and easily confirm each tp epically if the spy decides they want to exist.
WaveAqualei wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:My idea for a TMK list is this
Spoiler:
Keep in mind 5v10 would be way more balanced if scum had TMK and we allowed some certain nerfs to power roles such as Jailor, nerfs to roles such as Spy, Transporter and in general removed easy hard confirmations, this would also consider NE as a "mafia unaware role, where they share the objective of removing all down but don't know the mafia. This doesn't consider jester and exe as true neutral evils because jester has a benign wincon, exe has a scum sided wincon but it can still win with town and can still become jester.
6v9 doesn't work in a balanced game mode, scum only have a disadvantage so much as of now because the meta allows town to easily confirm players. We need ways that jailor can easily be countered outed, ways where tp and lo don't lump into one person and easily confirm each tp epically if the spy decides they want to exist.
Would NE just be Witch?
Also your "Favorite Roles to Play" doesn't have NK there (unless that was intentional, NK is boring lol)
DecDecAttack wrote:WaveAqualei wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:My idea for a TMK list is this
Spoiler:
Keep in mind 5v10 would be way more balanced if scum had TMK and we allowed some certain nerfs to power roles such as Jailor, nerfs to roles such as Spy, Transporter and in general removed easy hard confirmations, this would also consider NE as a "mafia unaware role, where they share the objective of removing all down but don't know the mafia. This doesn't consider jester and exe as true neutral evils because jester has a benign wincon, exe has a scum sided wincon but it can still win with town and can still become jester.
6v9 doesn't work in a balanced game mode, scum only have a disadvantage so much as of now because the meta allows town to easily confirm players. We need ways that jailor can easily be countered outed, ways where tp and lo don't lump into one person and easily confirm each tp epically if the spy decides they want to exist.
Would NE just be Witch?
Also your "Favorite Roles to Play" doesn't have NK there (unless that was intentional, NK is boring lol)
I think that was them slyly yelling at us (the testing grounds) for not having given the devs anymore NEs yet, but rn it would be yes
WaveAqualei wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:My idea for a TMK list is this
Spoiler:
Keep in mind 5v10 would be way more balanced if scum had TMK and we allowed some certain nerfs to power roles such as Jailor, nerfs to roles such as Spy, Transporter and in general removed easy hard confirmations, this would also consider NE as a "mafia unaware role, where they share the objective of removing all Town but don't know the mafia. This doesn't consider jester and exe as true neutral evils because jester has a benign wincon, exe has a scum sided wincon but it can still win with town and can still become jester.
6v9 doesn't work in a balanced game mode, scum only have a disadvantage so much as of now because the meta allows town to easily confirm players. We need ways that jailor can easily be countered outed, ways where tp and lo don't lump into one person and easily confirm each tp epically if the spy decides they want to exist.
Would NE just be Witch?
Also your "Favorite Roles to Play" doesn't have NK there (unless that was intentional, NK is boring lol)
Stadelia wrote:Fired up old AF account to come mention that the last few games have had exe siding town. Maf lost every one without coming close to a victory. Classic ranked is currently: 10 townies, 4 mafia, 1 witch, where 1 of those townies CAN NEVER DIE TO ANYTHING *except* lynching and the Jailor. That townie? The executioner.
Worse still is the sheer toxicity it brings out in everyone in the game.
Soulshade55r wrote:Stadelia wrote:Fired up old AF account to come mention that the last few games have had exe siding town. Maf lost every one without coming close to a victory. Classic ranked is currently: 10 townies, 4 mafia, 1 witch, where 1 of those townies CAN NEVER DIE TO ANYTHING *except* lynching and the Jailor. That townie? The executioner.
Worse still is the sheer toxicity it brings out in everyone in the game.
I mean i think exe shouldn't be in ranked or be reworked so it can't side with town. Biggest issue is that town is currently really overpowered. So that something like 5v10 (Which should be actually a bit scum sided) is really really town sided. Due to countless roles such as Jailor, Transporter, Spies ect. The mafia need more ways to counter obvious tp protection spam, like on the Jailor who outs d1.
wozearly wrote:Town can almost always happily exchange a mislynch for a Mafia lynch and come out on top, which would even further discourage Mafia from early fake TI claims.
wozearly wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Stadelia wrote:Fired up old AF account to come mention that the last few games have had exe siding town. Maf lost every one without coming close to a victory. Classic ranked is currently: 10 townies, 4 mafia, 1 witch, where 1 of those townies CAN NEVER DIE TO ANYTHING *except* lynching and the Jailor. That townie? The executioner.
Worse still is the sheer toxicity it brings out in everyone in the game.
I mean i think exe shouldn't be in ranked or be reworked so it can't side with town. Biggest issue is that town is currently really overpowered. So that something like 5v10 (Which should be actually a bit scum sided) is really really town sided. Due to countless roles such as Jailor, Transporter, Spies ect. The mafia need more ways to counter obvious tp protection spam, like on the Jailor who outs d1.
Exe is a 'schrodinger' role whose potential existence affects the trustworthiness of early TI claims.
In the absence of the possibility of an Executioner, pretty much any early TI claim can be trusted implicitly and acted on because the worst case scenario is that it's a Mafia play for a mislynch which, in itself, reveals the Mafia member faking TI. Town can almost always happily exchange a mislynch for a Mafia lynch and come out on top, which would even further discourage Mafia from early fake TI claims.
The problem is that through a combination of independently sensible reasons, Exe is capable of being town-sided and still meeting its win conditions. In the new Ranked, the NE slot is pretty much required to be an outright Mafia ally for balancing in the absence of a credible neutral faction, but Exe doesn't fit this purpose as well as the Jester or Witch. One of the better suggestions to fix this was to bar the Exe from voting once it's win condition has been achieved.
Brilliand wrote:wozearly wrote:Town can almost always happily exchange a mislynch for a Mafia lynch and come out on top, which would even further discourage Mafia from early fake TI claims.
And what's to stop Town from happily giving the exe his win, killing the executioner, and coming out on top - even assuming we somehow made it impossible for the Town to get the better outcome where the exe sides with them?
The fact that what Exe does isn't what a fifth mafia member would do indicates that what Exe does isn't something that helps the Mafia very much.
James2 wrote:Brilliand wrote:wozearly wrote:Town can almost always happily exchange a mislynch for a Mafia lynch and come out on top, which would even further discourage Mafia from early fake TI claims.
And what's to stop Town from happily giving the exe his win, killing the executioner, and coming out on top - even assuming we somehow made it impossible for the Town to get the better outcome where the exe sides with them?
The fact that what Exe does isn't what a fifth mafia member would do indicates that what Exe does isn't something that helps the Mafia very much.
Exe doesn't do what a fifth mafia member was, but neither does it do what a tenth townie would. Its existence is better for each side than having an extra member of the opposing faction, which is proper for a neutral role.
If overt false accusations become sufficiently common, lynching accusers first can become an optimal play for town, and there have been times (in RP anyway) where lynching accusers first was the meta, at least for certain types of accusations (e.g. d2 sheriffs). If Exe is regarded as evil simpliciter this will lead (and at times has led) to oscillation of the meta (more overt false accusations->more accusers lynched first->less overt false accusations->less accusers lynched first->more overt false accusations). The possibility of Town giving the win to cooperative Exes disrupts this, but aside from that I don't think there's a problem.
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