Witch Should be Neutral Chaos

[RiceHatMan]

Witch shouldn't be Neutral Evil. Firstly, although Neutral Evils are supposed to harm town, they are more to act as a nuisance for group with the majority. For example, Jester won't vote anyone if they can pull it off, forcing Town into voting to prevent losing majority. Same with executioner, although it's more of a nuisance for a evil majority. Overall, Neutral Evils are there to hinder or trick the majority, not just be plain evil. Witch, on the other hand, works only with evils, fake claims exactly like evils (which is what Neutral Evil should do differently), and directly has to win without Town. The more important thing about Neutral Evils, is that, like Neutral Benign, have no association with other factions and they win separately from the rest of the factions. Witch, on the other hand, needs town to lose in order to win, making it more of a faction role, so they win at the end of the game instead of individually winning. Neutral Evils should hinder the majority, have a non-faction win condition, and should have a negative to giving them their win. Witch, on the other hand, has a faction like win condition, hinders the majority just because they are plain evil, and letting them have their win condition is literally letting yourself lose, so you could say that for any Neutral Killing. Witch is literally a Neutral Killing that doesn't kill and only cannot win with Town. That is not the definition of a Neutral Evil, that is just a half-faction non-killing Neutral Killing.

[cob709]

Neutral Evils are designed to directly work against the town. I don't see the problem.

[RiceHatMan]

Neutral Evils are designed to directly work against the town. I don't see the problem.

Neutral Evil doesn't necessarily harm Town, it's meant to hinder the majority and trick others into lynching certain players. Neutral Evils shouldn't hold night power, but rather the power to mess around with voting during the day.

[cob709]

Neutral Evils are designed to directly work against the town. I don't see the problem.

Neutral Evil doesn't necessarily harm Town, it's meant to hinder the majority and trick others into lynching certain players. Neutral Evils shouldn't hold night power, but rather the power to mess around with voting during the day.

I disagree. I would like to emphasize the "evil" attribute of the alignment. There's no necessity to harm the majority of players, an "evil" alignment directly opposes the "good" faction, which in this case is the town.

[RiceHatMan]

I disagree. I would like to emphasize the "evil" attribute of the alignment. There's no necessity to harm the majority of players, an "evil" alignment directly opposes the "good" faction, which in this case is the town.

Jester and Executioner don't always oppose Town. In fact, they will always oppose the team with the majority, since they want voting to go on way that the majority doesn't (unless your target is Veteran or something).

[cob709]

I disagree. I would like to emphasize the "evil" attribute of the alignment. There's no necessity to harm the majority of players, an "evil" alignment directly opposes the "good" faction, which in this case is the town.

Jester and Executioner don't always oppose Town. In fact, they will always oppose the team with the majority, since they want voting to go on way that the majority doesn't (unless your target is Veteran or something).

An executioner's target is always a member of the town, so they do in fact, oppose the town.

Jester opposes town by performing an unstoppable attack after they die, so they also oppose town. Though, jester is a somewhat of a grey-area, personally i think it should be moved to Benign.

[RiceHatMan]

Jester opposes town by performing an unstoppable attack after they die, so they also oppose town. Though, jester is a somewhat of a grey-area, personally i think it should be moved to Benign.

Jester and Executioner need to trick the majority into lynching themselves or their target. They have their separate win condition. Benigns, on the other hand, don't kill and have nothing to do with making others lynch certain people. Both alignments can win with everyone. Witch on the other hand, doesn't have to trick town, and instead acts as a literal faction against Town, needing a fake claim. Witch has to make alliances while Jester and Executioner don't. Neutral Evils are supposed to be evil to everyone. They are supposed to be that selfish role that only cares about themselves winning, and only helps you if you help them win. Witch, on the other hand, helps other factions, which Neutral Evils should never directly do in order to win (it's in their name). Their win condition should be tied to other's win conditions, and this makes Witch more of a faction role because they cannot win with Town.

[cob709]

Jester opposes town by performing an unstoppable attack after they die, so they also oppose town. Though, jester is a somewhat of a grey-area, personally i think it should be moved to Benign.

Jester and Executioner need to trick the majority into lynching themselves or their target. They have their separate win condition. Benigns, on the other hand, don't kill and have nothing to do with making others lynch certain people. Both alignments can win with everyone. Witch on the other hand, doesn't have to trick town, and instead acts as a literal faction against Town, needing a fake claim. Witch has to make alliances while Jester and Executioner don't. Neutral Evils are supposed to be evil to everyone. They are supposed to be that selfish role that only cares about themselves winning, and only helps you if you help them win. Witch, on the other hand, helps other factions, which Neutral Evils should never directly do in order to win (it's in their name). Their win condition should be tied to other's win conditions, and this makes Witch more of a faction role because they cannot win with Town.

Mafia is an evil faction
Witch is an evil alignment

It's not irregular for witch to side with Mafia, or even the NK. So in a way, the witch IS against every faction.
Also, removing witch from Neutral Evil will impact Ranked games.

[RiceHatMan]

I'm going to bring this up again with new ranked role lists suggestions being made. Witch is just too different from the other Neutral Evils, and the Neutral Evil slot is too swingy right now.

[dolphina]

i saw the title, I don't need to see anything else

/nosupport

also the reason NE slot is swingy is BECAUSE jester and exe are too different from witch. there's a reason so many people in role ideas are trying to change jester and exe to neut chaos/use witch as the best example of NE. witch is a good NE

[Ezradekezra]

Same with executioner, although it's more of a nuisance for a evil majority.

Ah yes, the role that wins by forcing a mislynch is worse for evils than it is for the town.

Witch belongs in NE because it works against the Town, but lacks a killing ability of its own.

/nosupport

[Soulshade55r]

How about we put jester and exe in chaos because they are bad roles and make a new ne

[Ezradekezra]

Neutral (Benign) is for roles that have absolutely no killing ability and can end up siding with anyone.
- Survivor has no killing ability and can side with whoever they choose
- Amnesiac has no killing ability, but the faction that Amnesiac sides with is locked in when it remembers a role
- GA can end up siding with any faction, but this is decided for the GA at the start of the game

Neutral (Evil) is for roles that little to no killing ability of their own, and those that can get kills are entirely reliant on other players to get said kills.
- Executioner has no killing ability, as its win condition is to force a certain player to be mislynched
- Jester can only get a single kill in the entire game, and this kill is reliant on other players lynching the Jester
- Witch has no killing ability of its own, but it can score kills by controlling killing roles

Neutral (Killing) is for roles that have a consistent killing ability.
- SK can kill every night
- Werewolf can rampage every night except for N1 and N3
- Arsonist can douse every night
- Juggernaut can kill every night except for N1

Neutral (Chaos) is for roles that have a killing ability of their own, but only one that functions inconsistently.
- Pirate has to play Rock/Paper/Scissors and get lucky to get kills.
- PB/Pest has to infect everybody before being able to kill people at all, and the amount of time that takes can vary wildly.
- Vampire can only kill if there is a full team or if they hit an evil role.

[MafiaxSK]

If anything I think Jester should be changed to NC. Witch fits NE better, but jester has the inconsistent killing ability of NC and it can hurt any faction.

[RiceHatMan]

Neutral (Benign) is for roles that have absolutely no killing ability and can end up siding with anyone.
- Survivor has no killing ability and can side with whoever they choose
- Amnesiac has no killing ability, but the faction that Amnesiac sides with is locked in when it remembers a role
- GA can end up siding with any faction, but this is decided for the GA at the start of the game

Neutral (Evil) is for roles that little to no killing ability of their own, and those that can get kills are entirely reliant on other players to get said kills.
- Executioner has no killing ability, as its win condition is to force a certain player to be mislynched
- Jester can only get a single kill in the entire game, and this kill is reliant on other players lynching the Jester
- Witch has no killing ability of its own, but it can score kills by controlling killing roles

So what is the difference between benign and evil? They both need others to kill. Jester, Executioner and Pirate can side with anyone, and Jester and Executioner don't kill, so why aren't they benign?

[Ezradekezra]

Neutral (Benign) is for roles that have absolutely no killing ability and can end up siding with anyone.
- Survivor has no killing ability and can side with whoever they choose
- Amnesiac has no killing ability, but the faction that Amnesiac sides with is locked in when it remembers a role
- GA can end up siding with any faction, but this is decided for the GA at the start of the game

Neutral (Evil) is for roles that little to no killing ability of their own, and those that can get kills are entirely reliant on other players to get said kills.
- Executioner has no killing ability, as its win condition is to force a certain player to be mislynched
- Jester can only get a single kill in the entire game, and this kill is reliant on other players lynching the Jester
- Witch has no killing ability of its own, but it can score kills by controlling killing roles

So what is the difference between benign and evil? They both need others to kill. Jester, Executioner and Pirate can side with anyone, and Jester and Executioner don't kill, so why aren't they benign?

Jester can haunt someone, killing them

Executioner's win condition is literally to get their target killed

[Brilliand]

Spoiler: Neutral (Benign) is for roles that have absolutely no killing ability and can end up siding with anyone.
- Survivor has no killing ability and can side with whoever they choose
- Amnesiac has no killing ability, but the faction that Amnesiac sides with is locked in when it remembers a role
- GA can end up siding with any faction, but this is decided for the GA at the start of the game

Neutral (Evil) is for roles that little to no killing ability of their own, and those that can get kills are entirely reliant on other players to get said kills.
- Executioner has no killing ability, as its win condition is to force a certain player to be mislynched
- Jester can only get a single kill in the entire game, and this kill is reliant on other players lynching the Jester
- Witch has no killing ability of its own, but it can score kills by controlling killing roles

Neutral (Killing) is for roles that have a consistent killing ability.
- SK can kill every night
- Werewolf can rampage every night except for N1 and N3
- Arsonist can douse every night
- Juggernaut can kill every night except for N1

Neutral (Chaos) is for roles that have a killing ability of their own, but only one that functions inconsistently.
- Pirate has to play Rock/Paper/Scissors and get lucky to get kills.
- PB/Pest has to infect everybody before being able to kill people at all, and the amount of time that takes can vary wildly.
- Vampire can only kill if there is a full team or if they hit an evil role.

Your "unreliable killing" definition for both NE and NC doesn't work very well.

Neutral (Evil) is for roles that are harmful to Town without actively killing them in any consistent way.
- Executioner needs to cause a Townie to be mislynched; that's bad for Town. No ability to kill at all.
- Jester scares the Town into thinking they shouldn't lynch scummy people; that's bad for Town. Has a one-shot kill that doesn't necessarily help or harm any particular faction.
- Witch explicitly needs Town to lose. Occasionally Witch manages to kill, when very lucky.

Neutral (Chaos) is for roles that don't fit in any other category; it's a catchall.
- Pirate is a killing role that can freely side with any faction. Can't be NB because it kills, can't be NE or NK because it's free to play completely like a TK if it wants to; so it's NC.
- PB/Pest inevitably becomes a powerful and effective killer that needs to kill all other factions to win. It would fit fine in NK, so it doesn't really belong here.
- Vampire is a full-blown faction that doesn't have its own alignment because the devs felt silly about making a 1-role alignment. NC is thus the only place left for it (for now).

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Honestly I think that jest and exe should be moved to their own alignment instead of witch

[dolphina]

Honestly I think that jest and exe should be moved to their own alignment instead of witch

this

[OreCreeper]

I feel like jester and exe are both anti-town, but it's just that witch is WAY more anti-town than both of them. Jester's unstoppable attack obviously has a larger chance of hitting town than evil, and if an important role forgets to vote inno, then they are essentially screwed. Also very annoying for mayors because their vote counts for 3, so if they vote inno, it would have a large impact on the outcome of the trial. Executioner can only have a townie as their target, meaning that if they win, not only do they waste town a day, but also cost them a townie, which is a huge setback for the town. It's just that both jester and exe have the option to side with town, but witch cannot do it, automatically making it way more anti-town than all of the other NEs.

[MafiaxSK]

Witch is definitely the odd one out. Executioner is inherently anti-town because they need to get their target lynched to win, but they can side with any faction as a swing vote, and often side with town. Exes can also use the strategy of waiting til their target dies at night and then winning as jest, and jester can side with any faction as well with who they kill. Witches can only side against the town. Imo the neutral alignments should be:

Neutral Killing: SK, Arso, WW, Jugg, Pest (must kill everyone else)
Neutral Benign: Surv, Amne, GA (can side with any faction and can’t kill)
Neutral Chaos: Pirate, Jest, Exe (must achieve their win con that involves killing, but can side with any faction)
NE: PB, Witch, Vampire (catch-all for enemies of the town without their own killing power)

[dolphina]

Witch is definitely the odd one out. Executioner is inherently anti-town because they need to get their target lynched to win, but they can side with any faction as a swing vote, and often side with town. Exes can also use the strategy of waiting til their target dies at night and then winning as jest, and jester can side with any faction as well with who they kill. Witches can only side against the town. Imo the neutral alignments should be:

Neutral Killing: SK, Arso, WW, Jugg, Pest (must kill everyone else)
Neutral Benign: Surv, Amne, GA (can side with any faction and can’t kill)
Neutral Chaos: Pirate, Jest, Exe (must achieve their win con that involves killing, but can side with any faction)
NE: PB, Witch, Vampire (catch-all for enemies of the town without their own killing power)

1. That would mean vamps can spawn in ranked
2. Pb and pest are the same "role"
3. Vamps can kill

Lemme fix your alignments:

Neutral Killing: SK, Arso, WW, Jugg, Pest (must kill everyone else)
[NEW ALIGNMENT] Neutral Vampire: the forbidden fuckers, the evil bitches, same wincon as nk but they can convert, fucking hate these things
Neutral Benign: Surv, Amne, GA (can side with any faction and can’t kill)
Neutral Chaos: Pirate, Jest, Exe (must achieve their win con that involves killing, but can side with any faction)
NE: Witch (catch-all for enemies of the town without their own killing power)

[MafiaxSK]

PB and Pest aren’t the same role, imo. It’s mostly a semantic decision but the mechanics of Plaguebearer and Pestilence are completely different. PB can’t kill at all. Pestilence is basically OP WW. The goals of PB change radically once it becomes Pest.

I guess the solution would be to change the ranked slot to NC rather than NE, but yeah definitely no vamps in ranked pls, just stop them from spawning in the game the same way VH can’t spawn in the TK slot. The thing is that vamps can’t side with any faction, just themselves. They really are the odd ones out.

[Brilliand]

PB and Pest aren’t the same role, imo. It’s mostly a semantic decision but the mechanics of Plaguebearer and Pestilence are completely different. PB can’t kill at all. Pestilence is basically OP WW. The goals of PB change radically once it becomes Pest.

Pestilence itself can't ever spawn in a rolelist. It can only exist as the second stage of Plaguebearer. So yes, PB and Pest are the same role; "Plaguebearer" is the role, and "Pestilence" is one of that role's abilities.

Furthermore, since Plaguebearer can only win by becoming Pestilence and fulfilling the Pestilence win condition, the goal of PB is the same as the goal of Pestilence from the very start.

[MafiaxSK]

1) Pestilence has its own role card, and
2) PB can win on its own. There are screenshots of rare PB win screens

It doesn’t really matter but Pest is effectively a NK role