Replace Witch With RM In Classic TT

[texer]

Right now Town has such a huge winrate in Classic TT. Why? Because of Witch. I think there are many benefits to replacing Witch with RM in classic TT.

Currently, to win as Witch, you must meet all of the following or else you can't win:
-Don't fuck up stuff for Mafia (I still see Witch witching GF/vigi into the TT and it's annoying when the TT is dead based on factors completely outside of their control; or witching the TT into vet)
-Find Mafia early (if you don't, it's very unlikely that mafia will believe you are witch once they have majority, especially if other townies are claiming witch too in an effort to get you lynched)
-Don't get outed beforehand (claiming invest and a real invest finds you as LO/Forger/Witch? bam. you just lost the game)
-Actually make sure Mafia gets majority (if mafia can only win via TT countdown, you're screwed no matter what)

Aside from the fact that Witch isn't a fun role to play in Classic TT (I don't know of anyone who ACTUALLY likes playing that role in TT), Witch is actively detrimental to both sides (Mafia and Town).

Removing Witch and replacing it with Random Mafia I think helps with many aspects of the game:

1. It buffs the two weakest TI roles in the gamemode: Spy and Sheriff. Sheriffs only finding two evils as suspicious out of five doesn't seem right at all, and spies can only see the mafia kill and the random mafia visit. Right now this happens like every other game:

"forger and mafioso are dead? well rip sheriffs I guess"
"consig is dead. I guess spies will just see who the mafioso visits each night, which the town will know the next day anyways"

With this change, sheriffs can now find three evils as suspicious, and spies will be able to get more information from their bugs via mafia visits. The TT companions of these roles will also be buffed as they can now make more plays.

2. It makes the gamemode purely Town vs. Mafia. Coven Town Traitor is way more balanced because of this, and this needs to be done in Classic as well.

3. The Traitor is now forced to only be killed via scumreading by the town, and not by witch making a lucky vigi shot or something like that. TT dying because of the witch really just ruins the rest of the game. With this change, the Traitor can only be killed via lynching or by a non-TT Jailor/Vigi scumreading them and killing them.

4. Mafia can make more plays since they have two random mafias. This happens like every other game:

"oh there was a clean? not a framer game; up the person this sheriff found as susp"
"this person claims bmed, all escort claims are confirmed"
"framer died, this susp sheriff claim can't be disg"

It's simple, once the town finds out what the RM is, they know what the evil side contains, and can more easily find the evils, and the manipulation done by the evils is heavily decreased. There are way more plays mafia can make if there are two random mafias. This is probably the biggest reason why mafia can usually never win this gamemode via getting a majority.

[Ezradekezra]

Witch not knowing who their teammates are from the start is pretty bad, especially in comparison with Coven TT.

I'd suggest getting rid of both Witch and RM, replacing them with a Mafia (Support) and Mafia (Deception) slot so that you don't get annoying double Forger games.

[Brilliand]

Witch is actively detrimental to both sides (Mafia and Town).

This is impossible. It would only be possible if the witch could create situations where both the Town and the Mafia simultaneously lose, and the witch doesn't do that (you would need another faction for that, i.e. an NK).

[Robbytherobot]

Witch hurts both town AND mafia, mafia cant start tt timer with witch alive and witch almost always just hurts mafia. Witch NEEEEEEEDS to be removed it is SOOO annoying.

[Brilliand]

Witch hurts both town AND mafia, mafia cant start tt timer with witch alive and witch almost always just hurts mafia.

So you're saying Witch helps Town?

Like I said, it's impossible to harm both sides at once in a 2-sided zero-sum game.

[Robbytherobot]

The problem is it isnt, while witch wins with mafia and needs to keep them alive, that doesnt happen and witch just messages with both factions.

[RiceHatMan]

So you're saying Witch helps Town?

Like I said, it's impossible to harm both sides at once in a 2-sided zero-sum game.

In theory, Witch could definitely harm Mafia's side. Why? Because it is a one-sided alliance. Witch needs Mafia to win, but Mafia doesn't need Witch to win. When Town is no where close to losing majority, Mafia would suicide and let the countdown begin. Witch does not have this path, however, because as soon as they die, they lose. This means Witch will do anything to prevent Mafia from outing the Witch and letting the countdown begin, actively harming Mafia's ability to use that win condition. If Witch does otherwise, it's considered gamethrowing.

[Robbytherobot]

Yeah pretty much mafia HAS to kill the witch in order to start the countdown which they often do. In my games mafia wont contact the witch but try to get them killed or throw them under the bus.

[Brilliand]

In theory, Witch could definitely harm Mafia's side.

This is true. I don't actually know which side the witch favors; I just wanted to point out that the witch can't both reduce Mafia's win/lose ratio and reduce Town's win/lose ratio (in a gamemode that doesn't have a third faction).

[Robbytherobot]

While yes if you focus on the winrates then town benefits, but if you look during the game witch *can* help mafia but more often than not helps town by hurting mafia while also having the ability to help mafia.

[Brilliand]

Note that if Witch is a net benefit to Town, then the following part of the OP shouldn't be true:

-Don't get outed beforehand (claiming invest and a real invest finds you as LO/Forger/Witch? bam. you just lost the game)

That is, the Town shouldn't be lynching its reluctant ally.

[Joacgroso]

Witch will try to help evils, even though her mere prescence helps town.

[Yemac]

/support

Especially what Joacgroso says. Witch will try to help evils, but they end up helping town by accident. I can't count the amount of games witch accidentally killed mafia or the TT n1 by controlling them.

Or add witch to mafia-chat, or replace witch with another mafia.

[Robbytherobot]

Please see my thread for a little more info on why Witch needs to be replaced in this mode.

[OreCreeper]

This is a good idea. Most of the time, witch just ends up screwing mafia over because they can accidentally get mafia or the TT killed, and also make it way harder for the mafia to win through the tt countdown.

[cob709]

What if- the witch also became a traitor
and wins with town?

[Brilliand]

What if- the witch also became a traitor
and wins with town?

Then the list still needs to be balanced, because there are too few evils.

Also, the Witch is hilariously good at both confirming itself and screwing Mafia over (when it wants to). A Town-aligned witch would be waaaay too powerful.

[cob709]

What if- the witch also became a traitor
and wins with town?

Then the list still needs to be balanced, because there are too few evils.

Also, the Witch is hilariously good at both confirming itself and screwing Mafia over (when it wants to). A Town-aligned witch would be waaaay too powerful.

Perhaps witch should also become a traitor and be re-aligned with mafia win condition

[MegaLT]

I feel like executioner could be a better option instead, with 3 mafia dead, countdown should start even with executioner alive.

Why?
1.Because 4th mafia would make Coven TT and classic TT way to similar, I want some variety.
2.Executioner would add more chaos, would make all accusations more suspicious or easier to defend.
3.Possibility of a jester would give town harder time on doing vote for role than with witch or 4th mafia

[OreCreeper]

I feel like executioner could be a better option instead, with 3 mafia dead, countdown should start even with executioner alive.

Why?
1.Because 4th mafia would make Coven TT and classic TT way to similar, I want some variety.
2.Executioner would add more chaos, would make all accusations more suspicious or easier to defend.
3.Possibility of a jester would give town harder time on doing vote for role than with witch or 4th mafia

Not really because the executioners will probably just side with town after getting their win. Also if the exe has the TT as their target that would suck for mafia.

[Robbytherobot]

Ive had 3 games today where witch tried to help mafia (in one case I was witch and mafia hit me n1 I tried my best to help them (they NEVER contacted me) but died), if witch isnt removed it NEEDS to be able to communicate with mafia at night and know who mafia and tt are. WITCH has NOONE else to side with so idk why this hasnt been done already, and should win if they die if mafia wins.

[Robbytherobot]

Just had YET another game where I *almost* won as witch but mafia didnt know I was witch (they thought another person was even though I made it a bit obvious for them), PLEASE make witch ATLEAST win if they die if MAFIA wins, it is so annoying to play as witch because in this gamemode witch's skill level to win is so high that normal players almost never get it, and even if you play well MAFIA will almost never contact you (even if they are 100% sure) as it benefits them to kill witch.

[MegaLT]

I feel like executioner could be a better option instead, with 3 mafia dead, countdown should start even with executioner alive.

Why?
1.Because 4th mafia would make Coven TT and classic TT way to similar, I want some variety.
2.Executioner would add more chaos, would make all accusations more suspicious or easier to defend.
3.Possibility of a jester would give town harder time on doing vote for role than with witch or 4th mafia

Not really because the executioners will probably just side with town after getting their win. Also if the exe has the TT as their target that would suck for mafia.

it can easily be made that the TT can't be exes target, even if exes side with town after getting their win, exe would still cause damage to town by lynching their member.

[DiamondRanger8]

They should either add Witch to Mafia chat, or make it so Witch is replaced with Consigliere.

[Robbytherobot]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BMG IMPLEMENT ANY ONE OF THESE ALREADY