Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

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Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby PiotrzEcchi » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:29 am

I played the game a lot before ranked list was changed (2 years ago or so) and that change made it so over few weeks I dropped out of the game. Holding a Custom game is somewhat difficult, it is not the answer, not many people play those and not always the made lobby features this role list. But let's remember the original Ranked role list was the most popular one for Custom games. It and Rainbow were the most common lobbies.

I speak of: Jailor, 1xTK, 2xTI, 2xTP, 1xTS (or was it 2xTS, 1xTP?), 1xRT... 1xNK, 1xNB, 1xNE... 1xAny... and mafia was either Mafioso+GF+RM or GF+MD+MS.

I talked to few people and they also noted that they liked it more than the current role list for Ranked. If the current one is more balanced (which I actually doubt) then it's fair to keep it as the Ranked role list, but giving the old one as a optional game mode without ELO, that is alternative to Classic would be really welcome.

(Here is the end of my suggestion, but I'll go into a little detail as to why I prefer it. Not really relevant to asking for both option to be available.)
4 Mafia and a lot of RT roles means a lot of games just end up being Mafia winning without effort by just having the majority vote. NK is basically a luck based role, because Town has problems reaching any conclusions. Lack of Any means no surprises, once NE is found, it is obvious there can't be another one of Exe/Jesters. It's less engaging to play and I keep track of player's roles less, because there can be up to 5 Townies of the same type. And finally sometimes the town has a really weird role list, that just isn't good; 5 TIs is just annoying to keep track of, 4 transporters is a mess and don't get me started on 4 Vigis.

Classic on the other hand is the other extreme. It is looking at the role list and basically crossing out positions. Once RT is dead, there is little place to fake a claim. There just isn't enough randomization in it and too much is set, for it to be a fun gamemode for more advanced players.
Last edited by PiotrzEcchi on Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby PiotrzEcchi » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:58 am

Also related to the last part: current ranked role list encourages Jailor to reveal and Town to Random Up each member one by one.
With 3x RT the Jailor just has to know so much information to make a guess on who isn't claiming an available role, that they just need everyone to claim. In old role list a Jailor could sit quiet and make their own judgment, because the confirmed Townies+dead Townies+Jailor's information was enough to find false claims.With new list it results into nearly random lynching of whoever "looks sus", because there is no good way of getting evidence against someone. Two town killing roles used to mean a third Sheriff is unlikely, not that there is a space for two more Vigis.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:42 am

I thought most people didn't like the fact evils were outed by proccess of elimination. You can still out them for the way they vote, or suspect them for the quality of their wills without resorting to randomness.
But anyway, I don't think this gamemode would do well, because gamemodes with such a closed rolelist don't tend to last very long unless they have an unique rule that no other gamemode has. Look at how rainbow, vigilantics, Dracula's palace and mafia returns died. I'm surprised you said rainbow was popular.
Look at Dracula's palace. People said vamp lobbies were the most common in custom and now no one plays that gamemode.
A better solution would be improving the custom system so players have more control over the games they play. Check the link in my signature for the details.
Alternatively, this could work as a part of a gamemode called "daily rolelist", which has a rolelist that changes every day. Even then, I don't think that gamemode would be played that much without an extra incentive.
Last edited by Joacgroso on Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby wozearly » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:17 pm

PiotrzEcchi wrote:I played the game a lot before ranked list was changed (2 years ago or so) and that change made it so over few weeks I dropped out of the game.


The original list was 2xTS, 1xTP, and Mafioso, GF, RM.

I can speak as a fellow fan of the original Ranked list; I stuck it out rather than abandon ToS. On paper, the Town vs Mafia faction balance was improved by having a consistent 4-Maf team, but at cost of giving the Town much greater certainty about their opposition and removing the need to consider more complex opponent setups, giving far greater benefits to meta-strategies that pushed process of elimination as hard as possible. It's also made Ranked more staid, with less variety and replayability (IMO).

Aside from some of the role balancing changes that have since come in, and which were sorely needed, the real curse of the old ranked list was the 2xTS given the typically high impact of TS roles and general inability to claim them effective as non-Town. Reintroducing the old list but with 1xTS converted to 1xRT, so we have the 3 unknown slots rather than the old 2, would be a fantastic roleset.

The main flak the idea gets is from an entirely legitimate alternative view that removing as much randomness as humanly possible from Ranked is always a positive move. The difficulty of adding it as a gamemode is that it is very, very similar to the Ranked setup, and fans of VIP, Town Traitor, etc. would probably not be massively impressed at Ranked 1.0 rearing its head alongside Ranked 2.0.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby PiotrzEcchi » Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:50 am

On paper it sounds more interesting to have less certainty and to have to suspect players instead of relaying on role claim eliminations and TI's results.
But it also causes a problem, if there are little evidence, any evidence starts being enough. People can get lynched for not playing their role in an agreed upon Meta way. It diminishes the game's fun if doing something you think is the right move, will get you lynched for not playing properly. Any claim has to be CC regardless of whether you want to reveal your role or not, any LO/TP has to be on the Jailor or else they lied. Often the Meta play is a good one, but it doesn't mean it is the only thing anyone should ever do, and making role list very flexible means there just isn't an opportunity for any individualism, because that gets players killed.

The reason why Mayor can't be Whispered to is because that was not a fun gameplay, where everyone had to /w their role to a confirmed townie. And now it's happening again with a Jailor, so I don't think the Devs are particularly happy about it. And in my opinion Role list contribute to it, and Meta game mentality makes it impossible to play differently.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby dolphina » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:12 am

/support

we need more gamemodes
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:33 am

Why do you think we need more gamemodes?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby dolphina » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:37 am

Joacgroso wrote:Why do you think we need more gamemodes?

There's no
sprinkle motion
spice
to the current ones. And Custom is fucking dead.
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Re: Add old ranked list as optional gamemode (without ELO)

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:30 pm

We don't need more vanilla gamemodes. Custom is precisely the right solution to the problem of the existing vanilla gamemodes having not enough variety, and the fact that it doesn't manage to fill that role right now is just evidence that the host/lobby system needs to be reworked for that mode.
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