Witch can win while dead

[Yemac]

So, there has been this thing about witch that has bothered me ever since I started playing this game, and that is that if witch dies, they lose. I feel like this is a little unfair to this NE. I will be posting a longer reasoning for this, but your TL;DR is this:

TL;DR: If evils win, witch wins with them (even if the witch has died)
(If this were to be implemented, to balance it out, witch should lose their basic defence)

Let's go over some of my reasonings: Witch cannot do really risky plays. If they control a jailor to save a maf and there is a LO on jailor, witch gets found out and dies. Witch can also get killed by a petty jailor/evils that don't want witch to win even though their faction already lost, or easily wins without killing the witch.

I feel like witch is one of the harder NE's. Witch relies on good evils to win. If Executioner wins, they can die or do whatever and still win. if Jester wins, they're already dead so it doesn't matter. They still win. Witch is the only NE that has to live the entire game to win, and I feel like that's unfair. Mafia/NK have to live long enough to see town dead. Witch also needs to live long enough, but the thing is, mafia or NK's can win if their NK/Mafia buddies win. If you die as framer, you don't lose because you died, you only lose if all your other mafia members are dead. Witch is basically an extra evil. They should be able to die, and still win.

Pro's: It allows for witch to make more risky or sacrificial plays. It also stops petty-kills. It also makes witches stay in the game. They can trick the medium for example to clear a maf or put suspicion on a town. It also makes Witch much more fun to play as. You don't have to worry about getting doused, getting killed by WW, finding the vet, getting caught by LO's, Invests or even spies, getting killed by jailor, etc.

Cons: This could make for witch to be a little too powerful in regards to the other NE's. (I disagree, since they serve different purposes, but it is a con).

Some people will say "but that makes witch so much easier!" and to that I say, but isn't exe/jester already easy? Jester is seen as one of the easiest roles? And what's wrong with putting a little much pressure of off the witch? It makes it more fun and if I count my W/L rate for Witch and for Exe/Jest, I won relatively so much more as exe/jest than as witch.

Tell me what you think. I'll add any more pro's and cons to the list (and maybe make this post a little tidier if it gets a lot of votes)

[Ezradekezra]

This would make getting Witch in rainbow a literal auto-win, since it's incredibly rare for Town to win in rainbow.

/nosupport

[Yemac]

There are more gamemodes than rainbow. And yes, I agree rainbow (and perhaps even all any) cause for witches to win really easily, but I feel like in gamemodes like ranked and ranked practice (and TT!) witch is too vulnerable. I feel like just focussing on rainbow (and let's be honest, that gamemode is pretty dead anyway) is a little narrowminded.

You could make it so in Ranked (Practice) and TT this counts, or that in Chaos mode it doesn't apply (I know I said it should work in TT, but Witch and TT have it's own problems and there are far better solutions for witch in that gamemode than just making witch able to win when that)

[Joacgroso]

First of all, no one plays rainbow.
Secondly, if this was implemented witches should lose their barrier. But I don't think they should be able to win despite dying night 1. I think it would be more fair if they had to survive until town loses, like a vampire hunter. Once all townies die, they receive a message telling them they won, and can do whatever they want and win. The main problem is that amnesiacs could turn the situation around, so maybe witches should prevent amnesiacs from remembering town if all town died, or should have to kill the amnesiacs if they ressurrect the town. I'm not sure if this is neccesary, but I think it's fair for them.
Of course this would bump their stats in chaos gamemodes, but those gamemodes aren't meant to be balanced anyway.

[Yemac]

First of all, no one plays rainbow.
Secondly, if this was implemented witches should lose their barrier. But I don't think they should be able to win despite dying night 1. I think it would be more fair if they had to survive until town loses, like a vampire hunter. Once all townies die, they receive a message telling them they won, and can do whatever they want and win. The main problem is that amnesiacs could turn the situation around, so maybe witches should prevent amnesiacs from remembering town if all town died, or should have to kill the amnesiacs if they ressurrect the town. I'm not sure if this is neccesary, but I think it's fair for them.
Of course this would bump their stats in chaos gamemodes, but those gamemodes aren't meant to be balanced anyway.

I agree, the barrier should be lost then. The dying N1 part is an issue I haven't thought of, and I feel like your suggestion would make it more fair in kingmaker situations. What would you personally think of wtch+evils outnumbering or equaling town members? So in a 2v1v3 (basically 3v3), witch can die to win. The downside of that is maths and that it's very complicated/chaotic (+ all any mode basically means evils outnumber town a lot of the times or very quickly). Or maybe witch wins with evils if they die after N4 or N5.

I do really like your suggestion/change, but I feel like witch can lose really easy later in the game. Maybe we can think of a better balance, so that if witch dies N1, they can't win, but if they die to petty jailor, they can win.

[Joacgroso]

The problem with witches winning if they survive long enough, even if there are alive townies, is that they could side with town after their win is secured. I suppose you mean that they should still be a ble to win, but only if town loses. In that case, I think that might work. Maybe force witches to live at least until day 4 in order to be able to win while dead? Calculating mayorities would be complicated, especially with roles like amnesiac, mayor or TKs being around.

[TheUltimateCake]

I mean, if witch can win while dead, it'll allow them to do a lot more agro plays, and there is a class in ToL which has the same win con as witch but can win while dead, so I feel like the change would be good as long as they lose their barrier.

[OreCreeper]

Imo nah, witch is fine the way it is. The reason why jester and executioner don't have to live to win is because their win condition doesn't really require that they live, and in the jester's case, their wincon goes against staying alive. And for executioner, it would be extremely unfair to the exe because in like 90% of cases, the exe is outed after getting their target lynched. With witch, it's different. Witch just has to ensure that the town loses.

[CheezePie]

Hmm, witch should stay as it is. Having to be somewhat careful and survive while helping the evils is part of the role, in my opinion.
Just because the rest of the evils can theoretically make riskier plays doesn't mean the witch should too...? It's a different role that requires a different approach.

[PatrykSzczescie]

Witch would get an easy win in various modes but let's focus on ranked.

I think it's fair idea for Witch only win condition to make town lose. For now, Witch is kind of really reliable on other evils and usually serves at most as extra vote against town. In scenarios where's quite many townies and most likely to win, Witch is forced to stay quiet so no one can actually disturb town by refusing being transed or controlling the TP who LOs were asked to be on. There should be an evil role who sacrifices to make certain faction win rather than a member of the faction who the opposing factions look for anyway.

This would also weaken jailor meta because witch could be free to cc jailor on D1.

But make sure if "to survive" aim was removed, Witch's basic defense is also removed for simple reasons.

[Yemac]

The problem with witches winning if they survive long enough, even if there are alive townies, is that they could side with town after their win is secured. I suppose you mean that they should still be a ble to win, but only if town loses. In that case, I think that might work. Maybe force witches to live at least until day 4 in order to be able to win while dead? Calculating mayorities would be complicated, especially with roles like amnesiac, mayor or TKs being around.

Yes, evils HAVE to win for witch to win. It just doesn't matter if they witch lives or die until the end of the game

But make sure if "to survive" aim was removed, Witch's basic defense is also removed for simple reasons.

[Joacgroso]

I think it's fair idea for Witch only win condition to make town lose. For now, Witch is kind of really reliable on other evils and usually serves at most as extra vote against town. In scenarios where's quite many townies and most likely to win, Witch is forced to stay quiet so no one can actually disturb town by refusing being transed or controlling the TP who LOs were asked to be on. There should be an evil role who sacrifices to make certain faction win rather than a member of the faction who the opposing factions look for anyway.

Witches are way more useful than that, though. Then can kill at night if they find a vigi, prevent the veteran from alerting unless he wants to kill townies, make TP and TI useless and even save mafia members from being executed. A witch that only acts like an extra vote is a bad witch.

[Yemac]

Just had a game in TT. It was a 4v4 and mafia voted me up because "Why wouldn't they". Jailor was TT and mafia could win without me so they decided to make me lose for no reason at all. I asked mafia why they would vote me up when I could win with them, and they said "Why wouldn't we? We win without you anyways. No need to win with witch".

This isn't even one instance. Witch gets screwed over so much, especially in TT. TT has its own problems with witch and should have NE or RM replaced with witch, but witch in ranked or other gamemodes have this issue too. Just people giving someone else the loss when they could win with. I'm really tired of this and everyone I talk to is like "Yeh but that's mafia choice. Don't hate the game hate the players", but when the game could fix the toxic playerbase, why not?

[ICECLIMBERS]

This would make getting Witch in rainbow a literal auto-win, since it's incredibly rare for Town to win in rainbow.

/nosupport

who cares
give freelo

[Ghosty221]

Just had a game in TT. It was a 4v4 and mafia voted me up because "Why wouldn't they". Jailor was TT and mafia could win without me so they decided to make me lose for no reason at all. I asked mafia why they would vote me up when I could win with them, and they said "Why wouldn't we? We win without you anyways. No need to win with witch".

This isn't even one instance. Witch gets screwed over so much, especially in TT. TT has its own problems with witch and should have NE or RM replaced with witch, but witch in ranked or other gamemodes have this issue too. Just people giving someone else the loss when they could win with. I'm really tired of this and everyone I talk to is like "Yeh but that's mafia choice. Don't hate the game hate the players", but when the game could fix the toxic playerbase, why not?

That's dumb. There are always gonna be players like that. It's the same when witches out the mafia/nk out of salt after they die. It's not really a problem, it's just a thing some players do cuz they think its funny af.

[kyuss420]

Just had a game in TT. It was a 4v4 and mafia voted me up because "Why wouldn't they". Jailor was TT and mafia could win without me so they decided to make me lose for no reason at all. I asked mafia why they would vote me up when I could win with them, and they said "Why wouldn't we? We win without you anyways. No need to win with witch".

This isn't even one instance. Witch gets screwed over so much, especially in TT. TT has its own problems with witch and should have NE or RM replaced with witch, but witch in ranked or other gamemodes have this issue too. Just people giving someone else the loss when they could win with. I'm really tired of this and everyone I talk to is like "Yeh but that's mafia choice. Don't hate the game hate the players", but when the game could fix the toxic playerbase, why not?

changing it so that witch wins if dead, wont stop this from happening. It would make me tend to lean toward killing the witch even more, just so that they cant affect my nights plans... especially if my mafia had been complaining about being controlled often.

[Yemac]

It would? If witch gets hung, and mafia wins, witch still wins the game.

I also don't fully understand your reply. You're making it seem like if WITCH screws over MAFIA that WITCH should still win. No, if mafia/nk or whatever screws over witch (this includes arso igniting them for example) witch still has a chance.

[kyuss420]

It would? If witch gets hung, and mafia wins, witch still wins the game.

I also don't fully understand your reply. You're making it seem like if WITCH screws over MAFIA that WITCH should still win. No, if mafia/nk or whatever screws over witch (this includes arso igniting them for example) witch still has a chance.

exactly, so if maf kill a witch that is siding with NK, then lynch the NK, witch will still win.

in a 4v4 (3 maf and witch) if witch feels the need to go visiting at night and ''accidentally'' control my maf away from their job.... goodbye witch.

[James2]

So, there has been this thing about witch that has bothered me ever since I started playing this game, and that is that if witch dies, they lose. I feel like this is a little unfair to this NE. I will be posting a longer reasoning for this, but your TL;DR is this:

TL;DR: If evils win, witch wins with them (even if the witch has died)
(If this were to be implemented, to balance it out, witch should lose their basic defence)

Let's go over some of my reasonings: Witch cannot do really risky plays. If they control a jailor to save a maf and there is a LO on jailor, witch gets found out and dies. Witch can also get killed by a petty jailor/evils that don't want witch to win even though their faction already lost, or easily wins without killing the witch.

I feel like witch is one of the harder NE's. Witch relies on good evils to win. If Executioner wins, they can die or do whatever and still win. if Jester wins, they're already dead so it doesn't matter. They still win. Witch is the only NE that has to live the entire game to win, and I feel like that's unfair. Mafia/NK have to live long enough to see town dead. Witch also needs to live long enough, but the thing is, mafia or NK's can win if their NK/Mafia buddies win. If you die as framer, you don't lose because you died, you only lose if all your other mafia members are dead. Witch is basically an extra evil. They should be able to die, and still win.

Pro's: It allows for witch to make more risky or sacrificial plays. It also stops petty-kills. It also makes witches stay in the game. They can trick the medium for example to clear a maf or put suspicion on a town. It also makes Witch much more fun to play as. You don't have to worry about getting doused, getting killed by WW, finding the vet, getting caught by LO's, Invests or even spies, getting killed by jailor, etc.

Cons: This could make for witch to be a little too powerful in regards to the other NE's. (I disagree, since they serve different purposes, but it is a con).

Some people will say "but that makes witch so much easier!" and to that I say, but isn't exe/jester already easy? Jester is seen as one of the easiest roles? And what's wrong with putting a little much pressure of off the witch? It makes it more fun and if I count my W/L rate for Witch and for Exe/Jest, I won relatively so much more as exe/jest than as witch.

Tell me what you think. I'll add any more pro's and cons to the list (and maybe make this post a little tidier if it gets a lot of votes)

Witch is neutral and therefore should have to live to see her wincon fulfilled. Executioner and jester also lose if they die before fulfilling their wincons.

Just had a game in TT. It was a 4v4 and mafia voted me up because "Why wouldn't they". Jailor was TT and mafia could win without me so they decided to make me lose for no reason at all. I asked mafia why they would vote me up when I could win with them, and they said "Why wouldn't we? We win without you anyways. No need to win with witch".

This isn't even one instance. Witch gets screwed over so much, especially in TT. TT has its own problems with witch and should have NE or RM replaced with witch, but witch in ranked or other gamemodes have this issue too. Just people giving someone else the loss when they could win with. I'm really tired of this and everyone I talk to is like "Yeh but that's mafia choice. Don't hate the game hate the players", but when the game could fix the toxic playerbase, why not?

Mafia is not required to give witch a win. Being salty about losing is not a valid reason for changing wincons.

[Joacgroso]

Witch is neutral and therefore should have to live to see her wincon fulfilled. Executioner and jester also lose if they die before fulfilling their wincons.

The thing about surviving is just a convention you think exists. Being neutral is not enough of a reason to require players to survive. Besides, there are lots of neutral roles that can win despite dying before meeting their win condition. See vampires, all NKs and PB. Even if we only count non factional neutrals, we still have guardian angels and arguably amnesiacs. But I think the point the OP was trying to make was the witches wincon should be changed.

Mafia is not required to give witch a win. Being salty about losing is not a valid reason for changing wincons.

Yeah, mafia has no obligation to let the witch win. Lynching her with no reason is still a dick move, but valid.
To be honest I don't know if this change should really be implemented since I'm not a balance expert, but a role being frustrating is a good reason to change it. One could argue that eliminating all town members is enough of a wincon.

[Serahni]

Just no.

The risk of lynching a Witch is the betrayal of information they might have. The negotiation that goes on between Mafia/Neutral Evil/Witches in this regard creates necessary alliances that are kind of pivotal to the way Witch is played. If the Witch can win from the graveyard, where is the motivation to negotiate? Where is the risk of siding with one faction over another? Why would they even care about playing properly when they can die and let the evils do all the hard work? This is a role that wins when town dies and I just think it's entirely counter to the ethos of its gameplay that the decisions it makes during the game can be entirely unwritten and they can end up with a lucky win just because the Arsonist they didn't help at all manages to win.

[dolphina]

Just no.

The risk of lynching a Witch is the betrayal of information they might have. The negotiation that goes on between Mafia/Neutral Evil/Witches in this regard creates necessary alliances that are kind of pivotal to the way Witch is played. If the Witch can win from the graveyard, where is the motivation to negotiate? Where is the risk of siding with one faction over another? Why would they even care about playing properly when they can die and let the evils do all the hard work? This is a role that wins when town dies and I just think it's entirely counter to the ethos of its gameplay that the decisions it makes during the game can be entirely unwritten and they can end up with a lucky win just because the Arsonist they didn't help at all manages to win.

/nosupport

[UzayAltay]

I think If This is implemented, a simple loss of magical barrier is not enough. Witch should probably loss both consigliere Ability and barrier. Or Maybe barrier should be less effective, such as only defending against maf/SK attacks (in additon to loss of consigliere ability)

On The other hand, This causes a dilemma. The reason of changing wincon was Giving witch More chance to win, or, in other words, prevent some situations witch being lynched while they are winning.

So I have another suggestion. I think This is a nice work-around, though not sure What would others think.

From the moment, there are less than or Equal to X (I think ideal number for X is 7,8, or 9) players alive, witch can choose to leave from town in A) Day: Discussion Phase B)Night.
If they successfuly escape from town, they win as more as town lose.
In case of day, I think the escape can be animated, which after a text is shown "Player A has escaped from the town. They were a Witch." I Dont think there should be any limitation of Day-escape except it being in discussion phase, preventing them escaping after they are being voted.
In case of night, I thought that it is resolved after any action, such as Amnesiac's remembering to prevent Witch to escape the moment they realize they are dying. That Also means action can be RBed etc, but that is not a big problem as witch can choose escape next Day If they are RBed.
That two Basicly allows witch to enable "witch-win=town-lose" in right conditions.
Actually...
In that case the escape mechanic at night seems a bit pointless, So Maybe making it just a Day ability that can be used in Discussion phase only might be the better fix.
I am strikingthrough the text include night at above text.
So Yes that is basically What my idea is.

[OreCreeper]

Witch is neutral and therefore should have to live to see her wincon fulfilled. Executioner and jester also lose if they die before fulfilling their wincons.

The thing about surviving is just a convention you think exists. Being neutral is not enough of a reason to require players to survive. Besides, there are lots of neutral roles that can win despite dying before meeting their win condition. See vampires, all NKs and PB. Even if we only count non factional neutrals, we still have guardian angels and arguably amnesiacs. But I think the point the OP was trying to make was the witches wincon should be changed.

Mafia is not required to give witch a win. Being salty about losing is not a valid reason for changing wincons.

Yeah, mafia has no obligation to let the witch win. Lynching her with no reason is still a dick move, but valid.
To be honest I don't know if this change should really be implemented since I'm not a balance expert, but a role being frustrating is a good reason to change it. One could argue that eliminating all town members is enough of a wincon.

Really? Only arso and SK can win while dead, WW and jugg are unique, so is PB. Idk if they can with while dead with an amnesiac who remembers their role, if that is then I'm wrong but otherwise this doesn't really make sense as a statment.

[RiceHatMan]

Really? Only arso and SK can win while dead, WW and jugg are unique, so is PB. Idk if they can with while dead with an amnesiac who remembers their role, if that is then I'm wrong but otherwise this doesn't really make sense as a statment.

Unique NKs can win if an amnesiac remembers them.