Add Town Traitor Ranked

[texer]

I'm going to be completely honest, Town Traitor is probably my favorite gamemode in the entire game. As mafia/coven, you get an extra member completely with town abilities. As town, having to actually scumread to win is what brings up the . I really like the idea that "no one is truly confirmed" in this gamemode, which removes the confirmed massclaiming I see in gamemodes such as Ranked (and why I really hate Ranked to be honest). The Town Traitor countdown is also pretty cool, is really intense, and just adds an extra twist to the gamemode.

So I figured, why not make a Ranked version of it? In terms of Elo purposes, if Mafia start off with a weaker team (TT BG, TT Sheriff) they would probably get more ELO for winning than a Mafia with a stronger team (TT Mayor, TT Jailor). Similarly, Town would get more Elo if they were up against a stronger Mafia team with a stronger TT role than a weaker one.

What do you guys think?

[cob709]

No. Town Traitor is not balanced, which is why it is placed in the "Chaos" category.

[OreCreeper]

The thing is, mafia and town's chances of winning are like 80% decided on D1 when the TT is chosen. If the TT is something like BG, that's a HUGE swing in Town's favor that can pretty much secure a win, while if the TT is jailor, that's a huge swing in Mafia's favor, and can allow them to win without putting in very much effort at all. The gamemode would also probably be very unpopular, since the majority of ranked players want games to be as balanced as possible and usually don't want their games to be too luck-based. This is why Town Traitor is a chaos gamemode, while Ranked is a normal gamemode. It's a terrible idea to make a ranked chaos gamemode because the two things are conflicting in interest. I can see why someone would want ranked TT though- most of the players in normal TT are stupid and there are a lot of town leavers when they see that they didn't get to be the TT. I feel like Coven TT fixes this problem somewhat, which is why I always try to play coven TT when its available.

[LevinSnakesRise]

There definitely will not be an unbalanced ranked mode, not one that's on purpose, anyways.

Apologies.

[kyuss420]

There definitely will not be an unbalanced ranked mode, not one that's on purpose, anyways.

Apologies.

VIP is very balanced role list wise, (If you know how the mode works). Can we make VIP mode the coven version of ranked?

[OreCreeper]

There definitely will not be an unbalanced ranked mode, not one that's on purpose, anyways.

Apologies.

VIP is very balanced role list wise, (If you know how the mode works). Can we make VIP mode the coven version of ranked?

Not really, the role list is very tight for coven.

[kyuss420]

There definitely will not be an unbalanced ranked mode, not one that's on purpose, anyways.

Apologies.

VIP is very balanced role list wise, (If you know how the mode works). Can we make VIP mode the coven version of ranked?

Not really, the role list is very tight for coven.

Kill TPs (then VIP) before town kills all the coven.... Claim TP and kill the ccs.....what do you need claim space for? Think youre gonna win being last man standing?

Any more claim space and a pro coven would wreck town every match.....

[Joacgroso]

How can you know who the vip is? Do you have to hope you get lucky?

[cob709]

How can you know who the vip is? Do you have to hope you get lucky?

Townies are informed of who the VIP is.

[Joacgroso]

I know, but how are evils supposed to know that? Outing the vip as town is one of the very few cases where you can be guiltied for gamethrowing even if you don't admit it.
Do you have to see who is being "ignored" by town?

[kyuss420]

I know, but how are evils supposed to know that? Outing the vip as town is one of the very few cases where you can be guiltied for gamethrowing even if you don't admit it.
Do you have to see who is being "ignored" by town?

Precisely why it should be a ranked mode. Skilled players can spot a VIP a mile off, if they pay attention. (they know who town is, and know who isnt lieing)

I see the VIP outed every 2nd game, without any of the townies realising theyre even doing it.....

eg.. pirate dies to crusader... VIP: ''I was pirated last night!''
- psychic putting ''VIP'' in their will instead of naming them (means the psychic and other townies they name, ARENT the VIP)
- sheriff visiting n1/n2... tracker visiting n1/n2 - 90% of the time arent the vip.
- sheriff/tracker claiming, not posting will.. town dont ask for will - usually the VIP
- trapper wasnt on psychic...(does that mean the crus is on the psychic????) or trapper dies to crus on psychic n2... either crus or psy are VIP
- sheriffs/trackers generally dont check the VIP... the amount of noobs that target the sheriffs n1 after all TP are dead is hilarious...

Point being, after spending 3 nights killing all the TPs, town has usually given enough info in the 3 days to tell you who ISNT vip, to give you at least a 50/50 shot (if you know what look for - or if you paid attention and noticed what was said), If they havent blatantly outed the VIP by then.

Problem is, noobs target randomly, hit the sheriff (who isnt protecting the vip), hit the psy ''to buy time'' when its obvious who the last coven are (who isnt protecting the VIP)...hit the pirate or GA or the the tracker or the TS (who arent protecting the VIP) then they realise who VIP is, with 2 or 3 TPs left in play and suddenly need 3 nights to win, when they only have 1 or 2....

The mode really does reward great plays, and demolishes bad ones.

Here is a report Im extremely proud of ^^ https://blankmediagames.com/Trial/viewR ... id=2440932 If they dont give you info, make them give it to you when on trial.

heres another.. https://blankmediagames.com/Trial/viewR ... id=2586025 day 2 during ''defence'' VIP says ''anyone wanna cc TS?''

[Joacgroso]

What's the problem with asking for ccs?

[kyuss420]

What's the problem with asking for ccs?

Hes TS and acting like hes confirmed day 2 when no one has been transed/RBed. Noob VIP play. (as if coven are ever going to claim TS) Gave himself away straight away... (hence the report on me for pointing it out)

[Joacgroso]

According to the report, that person was trapper. Also, the vigilante asked for ccs too. Why did you suspect the trapper and not the vigi?

[kyuss420]

According to the report, that person was trapper. Also, the vigilante asked for ccs too. Why did you suspect the trapper and not the vigi?

obviously he was vigi looking for a target, the VIP was too loud to be a vigi, and since vigi cant be VIP, you can rule him out. Vigi never cced the TP claims, and tracker and sherrif were known (and both visited n1). A BG was dead, pirate and GAs dont give a fuck about who claims TS, which leaves the only possible role he can be as vigi. (unless you assume someone is lieing... and coven know who is lieing, so theres no reason to doubt any claims). Also the VIP pointed out that ''BG cant read'' within seconds, while the vigi did not. Plus the fact that VIP was soft baiting coven to try and kill him, kinda makes it obvious where the crus is camped.

Also intersting how coven would of won that match, if the PM didnt decide to heal the gazing medusa n1. Just goes to show how 1 dumb move costs the game. Having him alive would mean 1 extra night for coven and a vip dead to poison.... no matter what they decided to claim... they could of both came out and claimed coven and town still would of lost because the coven made the correct plays.
As I said, if you play right you dont need to claim anything, assume you are dieing the next day, and use the night to make a move that will put your team in a good situation for the following night... let the sheriff check you, let the psy demand claims, if it comes down to you or the CL or you or the HM being left alive, say something to bait town into lynching you instead, so you have a better chance at doing some damage to town that night.... wasting a night on the TIs isnt going to put you in a good situation, its gonna leave you with 1 or 2 coven members and 3 or 4 nights needed to open and kill the vip.

[kyuss420]

According to the report, that person was trapper. Also, the vigilante asked for ccs too. Why did you suspect the trapper and not the vigi?

Besides

Besides,

What separates the pros from the noobs is the ability to recognize the non-obvious clues, not the ability to remember the obvious ones.

and VIP is the best mode in the game for this, as an evil faction =D
Especially as you have to come up with strategies to counter towns night plays after youve recognised the ''non obvious'' clues.

[DiamondRanger8]

I'm going to be completely honest, Town Traitor is probably my favorite gamemode in the entire game. As mafia/coven, you get an extra member completely with town abilities. As town, having to actually scumread to win is what brings up the . I really like the idea that "no one is truly confirmed" in this gamemode, which removes the confirmed massclaiming I see in gamemodes such as Ranked (and why I really hate Ranked to be honest). The Town Traitor countdown is also pretty cool, is really intense, and just adds an extra twist to the gamemode.

So I figured, why not make a Ranked version of it? In terms of Elo purposes, if Mafia start off with a weaker team (TT BG, TT Sheriff) they would probably get more ELO for winning than a Mafia with a stronger team (TT Mayor, TT Jailor). Similarly, Town would get more Elo if they were up against a stronger Mafia team with a stronger TT role than a weaker one.

What do you guys think?

Town Traitor, especially the classic version, needs some biiig role list changes if mafia is going to consistently win. Mafia gets 5 members, one of which has to be found by the mafia before they can work together, and mafia get's one town kill every day. This is bad compared to the at least 2 kills mafia gets on average in ranked, even if the neutral killing isn't a direct ally.

[kyuss420]

I'm going to be completely honest, Town Traitor is probably my favorite gamemode in the entire game. As mafia/coven, you get an extra member completely with town abilities. As town, having to actually scumread to win is what brings up the . I really like the idea that "no one is truly confirmed" in this gamemode, which removes the confirmed massclaiming I see in gamemodes such as Ranked (and why I really hate Ranked to be honest). The Town Traitor countdown is also pretty cool, is really intense, and just adds an extra twist to the gamemode.

So I figured, why not make a Ranked version of it? In terms of Elo purposes, if Mafia start off with a weaker team (TT BG, TT Sheriff) they would probably get more ELO for winning than a Mafia with a stronger team (TT Mayor, TT Jailor). Similarly, Town would get more Elo if they were up against a stronger Mafia team with a stronger TT role than a weaker one.

What do you guys think?

Town Traitor, especially the classic version, needs some biiig role list changes if mafia is going to consistently win. Mafia gets 5 members, one of which has to be found by the mafia before they can work together, and mafia get's one town kill every day. This is bad compared to the at least 2 kills mafia gets on average in ranked, even if the neutral killing isn't a direct ally.

All mafia modes are like tho, which is why coven players prefer coven. I feel that most ''townie'' players like it that way and most classic players are ''townie'' heavy players, so the more wins town get, the happier the players are.
Coven players usually have a few more games under their belt, and by the time you hit 1-2000 games, you are usually pretty bored with town roles and can townie pretty well, so you swap to evil roles. by 3-4000 games you can usually evil fairly well. By 6000 games you realise how being good (or even average) at being evil, significantly improves your town game as you know what the IQ evils are trying to do to win, and you can easily counter them. Once youre through the looking glass, you are even better at being evil because you know what the IQ townies think youre trying to do to win, so you can counter their counters. Then when youre town you can counter the counters counter. This is when the game becomes fun and interesting.... (then some noob [in general, not the OP....just read 80% of the suggestions thread] suggests they change everything, to make it easier for the 1-2000 gamers)

[Joacgroso]

Town Traitor, especially the classic version, needs some biiig role list changes if mafia is going to consistently win. Mafia gets 5 members, one of which has to be found by the mafia before they can work together, and mafia get's one town kill every day. This is bad compared to the at least 2 kills mafia gets on average in ranked, even if the neutral killing isn't a direct ally.

All mafia modes are like tho, which is why coven players prefer coven. I feel that most ''townie'' players like it that way and most classic players are ''townie'' heavy players, so the more wins town get, the happier the players are.
Coven players usually have a few more games under their belt, and by the time you hit 1-2000 games, you are usually pretty bored with town roles and can townie pretty well, so you swap to evil roles. by 3-4000 games you can usually evil fairly well. By 6000 games you realise how being good (or even average) at being evil, significantly improves your town game as you know what the IQ evils are trying to do to win, and you can easily counter them. Once youre through the looking glass, you are even better at being evil because you know what the IQ townies think youre trying to do to win, so you can counter their counters. Then when youre town you can counter the counters counter. This is when the game becomes fun and interesting.... (then some noob [in general, not the OP....just read 80% of the suggestions thread] suggests they change everything, to make it easier for the 1-2000 gamers)[/quote]
Is it really that simple, though? Unless you always play against the same players (which may be true for coven), you can't tell the difference between a noob and scum, so trying to counter what they do is luck-based. In a recent game an escort roleblocked me after I had proven myself as invest, for example. How was I supposed to not assume he was consort? Things like that happen a lot.

[DiamondRanger8]

Town Traitor, especially the classic version, needs some biiig role list changes if mafia is going to consistently win. Mafia gets 5 members, one of which has to be found by the mafia before they can work together, and mafia get's one town kill every day. This is bad compared to the at least 2 kills mafia gets on average in ranked, even if the neutral killing isn't a direct ally.

All mafia modes are like tho, which is why coven players prefer coven. I feel that most ''townie'' players like it that way and most classic players are ''townie'' heavy players, so the more wins town get, the happier the players are.
Coven players usually have a few more games under their belt, and by the time you hit 1-2000 games, you are usually pretty bored with town roles and can townie pretty well, so you swap to evil roles. by 3-4000 games you can usually evil fairly well. By 6000 games you realise how being good (or even average) at being evil, significantly improves your town game as you know what the IQ evils are trying to do to win, and you can easily counter them. Once youre through the looking glass, you are even better at being evil because you know what the IQ townies think youre trying to do to win, so you can counter their counters. Then when youre town you can counter the counters counter. This is when the game becomes fun and interesting.... (then some noob [in general, not the OP....just read 80% of the suggestions thread] suggests they change everything, to make it easier for the 1-2000 gamers)

Is it really that simple, though? Unless you always play against the same players (which may be true for coven), you can't tell the difference between a noob and scum, so trying to counter what they do is luck-based. In a recent game an escort roleblocked me after I had proven myself as invest, for example. How was I supposed to not assume he was consort? Things like that happen a lot.[/quote]


Yes that's true, but in ranked, the neutrals help you out by speeding up the game, and sometimes it doesn't work out, but it almost always ends up helping mafia for the better. That's why mafia have started wait to out defense until later in the game, so the werewolves, serial killers, and arsonists less so can help them out. In Town Traitor, unless you get a jailor or vigilante traitor, you will only end up getting 1 kill every night, and even if a witch finds a vigilante, the mafia would only end up getting one extra kill, and the witch could accidentally kill the mafia. See what I'm saying? I think this could be a ranked mode, but I'd say they need to make some balance changes first, especially the "Keep the last mafia jailed until we find TT" thing.

[Yemac]

I do like having a ranked mode, because ranked filters out new or bad players, or players that gamethrow/leave when they don't get the role they want. However, ranked TT would have to replace regular TT then, otherwise you split the playerbase up too much. Sometimes I have to wait for 5 minutes (in my timezone) for TT to fill up. If you add a ranked, that time is going to be even longer (and also, elo wouldn't matter anyways because if there are only 15 or so queueing up, even if someone is 2000+ ELO, they will get matched with whoever is in the queue. It doesn't solve much I feel like).

[Joacgroso]

If the problem is filtering bad players, a ranked system won't help. The current system already does a bad job at that because of the lack of players. Making another elo system for another gamemode would split players even more and result in the matchmaking being less effective.
I think a better solution would be allowing hosts to add filters to their lobbies, so they can choose to only allow players with a minimum amount of games/games from that gamemode/wins/whatever to join. This would help filtering players in every gamemode, although it would require some changes in the lobby system.

[kyuss420]

yup, looking at stats of people who have reached masters (tb>wl ranked) on trial bot) most of them are 50/50 with 800 ranked games played. So basically to reach masters, you have to play 800 ranked games and win at least 400 of them.

So basically youre saying a good player has 800+ games with a 50% win rate, and bad players dont, because thats the difference between masters ELO and everyone else.

I guess they could implement some kind of ''global ELO'' based of your win rate..... +10 for a win, -5 for a loss. But with casual game modes, people dont want to lose ELO for leaving after dieing n2, to start another game faster.

But then the lobby system would change to a ranked lobby style system, with a timer auto starting every 2 minutes, while the system matches everyone in the queue based on their ELO... so goodbye partying with your noob friends. Also would auto start for games that can start with less than 15 players....which would suck.
would also suck for new players, who would be waiting 15 minutes for a lobby to fill....and then being queued with throwers and leavers, and thats how they will learn to play the game.